Home Forums WWII Battleground WWII – Rotating Turrents

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  • #67312
    Avatar photoAlexandre Leal
    Participant

    Last night´s BGWWII game raised some issues concerning Turret Rotation rules where it concern concurrent actions made by the crew.

    The rules state that you can rotate and fire (with penalty) in the same action as long as it´s not turned more than 90º/45º (normal/slow torrents). It stands to reason that if you need to rotate more than those degrees you will need to fire in a following action. Turret Rotation should be, at least from a logical perspective, apart of the gunner´s job description (or captain on 1man turret), and if turning less than 90º or 45 (see above) part of the fire action.

    If the target is outside that arc the gunner needs to rotate for more than an action. I´ve always interpreted that the Gunner could start to rotate the turret in the same action the loader loads the main gun. I´ve never considered those actions to be mutually exclusive.

    e.g. after shooting last turn PzKpfw IVH “1” loader loads the gun as his 1st action. The Gunner starts to align the gun with the new target (which is 60º to the right of current arc), as his 1st action.  Since it´s a normal turret it rotates enough on this action to lay the gun upon it´s target, and thus not incurring in the rotate turret and shooting in the same action penalty when firing as his second Action.

     

    Last night though my “adversary” argument that a gun cannot rotate the turret in the same action as the loader loads the gun, hence ANY rotation needs to be done in the following action, and if said rotation should take 2 or more actions then it had to begin its count the action AFTER the gun was loaded.

    We decided to leave the argument to be discussed after the game and decided to go with my interpretation.

    How do you interpret BGWWII rules regarding this rotation and action mechanics?

    #67316
    Avatar photowillz
    Participant

    Its a game for fun, if you start having to record and remember whether you have loaded the gun or turned the turret each turn and on each tank the game stops being fun.  Not having played this set of rules I do not know what movement time scale is based on, I for one would one would play the rules on the assumption that you could turn your turret and fire once a turn.  If you want more complicated than that, build a full scale cardboard mock up of a tank turret and see how that works.

    #67325
    Avatar photoJohn D Salt
    Participant

    Suggested house rule: Loading can be done concurrently with turret rotation in tanks that have both a separate loader, and a turret basket.

    If nothing else this should arouse a nerd-frenzy over which tanks have turret baskets and which don’t.

    All the best,

    John.

    #67341
    Avatar photoAlexandre Leal
    Participant

    Suggested house rule: Loading can be done concurrently with turret rotation in tanks that have both a separate loader, and a turret basket. If nothing else this should arouse a nerd-frenzy over which tanks have turret baskets and which don’t. All the best, John.

     

    That is exactly my interpretation of the rules “as is”, and as such there would be no need for House ruling it.

    Let´s see what what people with experience in BattleGround WWII rules have to say, but thanks for your input.

    #67354
    Avatar photoNathaniel Weber
    Participant

    In my games of BGWWII—used to play it a lot and recently broke out the rules after about 10 years of hiatus—we allowed the loader to load while the gunner traversed, assuming the tank had a dedicated loader.  My understanding of turret design is that the folks in the turret all spin at the same rate that the turret does. Your opponent’s argument would only make sense if the loader had to operate from a section of the vehicle not, itself, traversing. (Is that John’s “basket” comment above? My own limited engineering vocabulary should be now readily apparent.)

    #67356
    Avatar photoRod Robertson
    Participant

    The BGWWII rules are clear. Each crew member gets two actions per turn and those actions are not dependant on the actions of other crew members. Thus in the case of smaller AT guns the loader can load in the same action that the gunner fires. The loader can load while the gunner traverses the turret if the loader and gunner are separate crew members. If not, due to a one-man turret, then the actions cannot occur simultaneously. Even two-man turrets can travers and load if and only if the commander/loader forgoes taking command actions and just loads.

    Cheers and good gaming.

    Rod Robertson.

    #67364
    Avatar photoAlexandre Leal
    Participant

    The BGWWII rules are clear. Each crew member gets two actions per turn and those actions are not dependant on the actions of other crew members.  

    I wouldn´t say that as there are exceptions, where one of the crew´s actions will impede other crew´s actions…e.g. gunner can´t aim if driver, well, drives, OR loader is loading, AND can only aim if leader directs fire.

    The issue was that gun traverse/Turret rotation is not clearly identified as one action in and on it self. It seems to be part of the fire process as in lay gun on the target, but it opens to debate whether it can be done concurrently with loading. Like I said, THAT is my interpretation, unless we are talking about tanks without the turret basket, like T-34 and the american Lee. In those cases I reckon it should not be allowed to turn turret AND load in the same action.

    Thanks for the input Rod.

    #67395
    Avatar photoNot Connard Sage
    Participant

    the american Lee. In those cases I reckon it should not be allowed to turn turret AND load in the same action. Thanks for the input Rod.

     

    That vehicle opens a whole new firing/loading can o’ worms. Lack of a turret basket for the 37mm gun is the least of its problems 😉

     

     

    Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

    #67401
    Avatar photoNot Connard Sage
    Participant

    🙂 FWIW, I just call it a turret floor. Interesting stuff about the Lee/Grant, I always assumed the 37 had a floor/basket.

     

    It does appear to have had one.  See the cutaway below.

    Originally had a crew of 7. Must have been a bit crowded 🙂

     

     

     

     

    Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

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