Home Forums General Game Design Is 30° Too Fiddly?

Tagged: , , , , ,

This topic contains 27 replies, has 16 voices, and was last updated by Patrice Patrice 2 months ago.

Viewing 28 posts - 1 through 28 (of 28 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #64958
    Tim
    Tim
    Participant

    Just a general question as to how folks view angle measurement/judging. I personally don’t find it so, but do others find 30° too fiddly to measure or estimate?

    This question can be applicable to field of vision or fire, say from a stand of figures in horse and musket era or ancient bows. In my case, I’ve been using it to quantify in rules, in a general way, the turret crew arrangements and vision in WWII tanks with respect to being able to react and fire at an opponent’s vehicles being moved across their field of view. And yes, I know the simple way is to not bother. 🙂

    #64960
    Not Connard Sage
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    I wouldn’t think it’s too fiddly to measure – it’s 1/3 of 90 degrees , although I’ve seen people who struggle with a ruler never mind a protractor 😉

    Expecting anyone to guesstimate it though, that’s out of the park.

     

     

     

     

     

     

    "I go online sometimes, but everyone's spelling is really bad. It's... depressing."

    #64966

    Just Jack
    Participant

    Tim,

    I don’t think it’s too fiddly, though I suspect many gamers will find it too limiting and just ignore it.  My limited experience is that most folks get aggravated with less than 180 degree field of fire.

    For what it’s worth, I think 30 degrees is probably fair in terms of someone locked onto an area in a high-stress situation (bullets flying, or the expectation they soon will be).

    V/R,
    Jack

    #64973
    Howard Whitehouse
    Howard Whitehouse
    Participant

    I’m going to say ‘Yes’, because it’s not an instinctive calculation, and a game that says “Bring a protractor” isn’t calling my name.

    Most of us can work out a 45% arc by eye. If you say, “Take it from the centre of the firing unit” you are probably getting the same general result.

    I do all my own stunts.

    #64975
    Patrice
    Patrice
    Participant

    Most of us can work out a 45% arc by eye.

    This.

    You can easily imagine a 45° arc if looking at any miniature square base, corner to opposite corner. You can’t see 30° so easily, and when your players are a bit tired after a long gaming day  I wouldn’t expect them to be very happy to search for it.

    http://www.argad-bzh.fr/argad/en.html
    http://argad.forumculture.net/

    #64982
    Retroboom
    Retroboom
    Participant

    This. You can easily imagine a 45° arc if looking at any miniature square base, corner to opposite corner. You can’t see 30° so easily, and when your players are a bit tired after a long gaming day I wouldn’t expect them to be very happy to search for it.

    Wouldn’t that be 90º? Speaking only personally, I think asking gamers to estimate anything other than 90 or 180, without the aid of a tool, is too fiddly.

    www.RetroBoom.com
    Stafford, Va. Let's play!

    #64983
    norm smith
    norm smith
    Participant

    I would do it, but would need to rely on a card template and one of those laser pens that Army Painter does to ‘line-out’ the path of the arc.

    Since it’s only a game! I would tend to go with 45 degrees as it is easier to Ball Park and would only actually measure it when in doubt.

    I use hexes and they  by default use sixty degree angles, combining to commonly give a total fire-arc of 120 degrees … I just live with that as an acceptable fallout of the hex mechanic.

    http://commanders.simdif.com

    #64984
    MartinR
    MartinR
    Participant

    30 degrees? Oh goodness. My gaming pals struggle with 90 degrees, let alone 45 degrees or less.

    It never cases to amaze me how restricting a turn to 45deg still seems to allow a unit to about face in two turns….

    Grids help with this of course, as does the construction of arc templates, of the sort made by Charles Grant.

    "Mistakes in the initial deployment cannot be rectified" - Helmuth von Moltke

    #64985
    Mike
    Mike
    Keymaster

    Yeah.

    I am happy to draw two lines from the rear middle of a square base through the front two corners but that is about it…

    #64986
    Patrice
    Patrice
    Participant

    You can easily imagine a 45° arc

    Wouldn’t that be 90º?

    I meant this:

    Yes if you do it on each side it’s 90°. 

    http://www.argad-bzh.fr/argad/en.html
    http://argad.forumculture.net/

    #64989
    Not Connard Sage
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    I wouldn’t think it’s too fiddly to measure – it’s 1/3 of 90 degrees , although I’ve seen people who struggle with a ruler never mind a protractor 😉 Expecting anyone to guesstimate it though, that’s out of the park.

     

    I was forgetting that not every wargamer is an engineer.

     

    Sorry, mea culpa.

    "I go online sometimes, but everyone's spelling is really bad. It's... depressing."

    #64993
    irishserb
    irishserb
    Participant

    My experience is that most gamers can do it, but maybe make some small clear templates with scribed  or marked lines that could be held over the figs to establish the arc for those who have problems with it.

    #64996
    John D Salt
    John D Salt
    Participant

    Templates are probably your best answer here (or templets if you like the Chaucerian spelling). If you make up a few card or plastic templates showing the angle you want, with a flat bottom that can be butted up against a base or model, I think no player will be entitled to object. The other advantage of templates is that you can pick any angle yu like, within the precision of your printer, so if you really need a template for the backblast area of a Wombat over 533 mils, you can have one (and presumably decorate the template with rolling clouds of backblast).

    It does seem to me that 30 degrees is quite a fine angle to restrict anything to if your game-turn is of any length at all; even if the FOV through your optics is only 30 degrees, I would expect that over the course of (say) a one-minute game-turn an observer would wiggle it about a bit so as to sweep a broader arc.

    All the best,

    John.

    #65001

    Not too fiddly but not terribly easy to estimate either.  Ultimately, we play games.  There is no need for this sort of granularity.   Stick with either 45 degrees from a corner or straight ahead from any part of the unit.

    John

    "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."

    --Abraham Lincoln

    #65027
    Ochoin
    Ochoin
    Participant

    Ridiculously easy to calculate.

     

    Just give each participant a compass & pencil, a ruler, some scrap paper, access to this Youtube video

    and 4-5 minutes of uninterrupted time (including a session where the GM can check answers).

     

    I would also recommend the GM sends out copies of past papers for revision well before the game. Evaluation should include formal feedback from the GM & use an A-E standard rather than spuriously accurate percentages. Some type of self-evaluation & peer feedback is urged.

     

    Should result in quite a game.

     

     

     

    donald

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by Ochoin Ochoin.
    • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by Ochoin Ochoin.
    #65037
    John D Salt
    John D Salt
    Participant

    I did enjoy that. I enjoyed it so much I watched its companion piece, how to construct an angle of 45 degrees. Then unfortunately I did not get as much out of the same author’s “Oduzimanje veličina kutova” thanks to my dreadful inability to understand Croatian, and the lack of pictures.

    I didn’t know the Croats used ‘:’ as a symbol for division. Do any other countries do this?

    All the best,

    John.

    #65043
    Ochoin
    Ochoin
    Participant

    thanks to my dreadful inability to understand Croatian,

     

    I can’t imagine why. It’s much the same language as Serbian, only written in the Roman rather than Cyrillic script.

     

    donald

    #65059
    Bandit
    Bandit
    Participant

    I’m going to say ‘Yes’, because it’s not an instinctive calculation, and a game that says “Bring a protractor” isn’t calling my name.

    Most of us can work out a 45% arc by eye. If you say, “Take it from the centre of the firing unit” you are probably getting the same general result.

    Another vote of agreement here.

    With that said, frankly I think the easiest answer to systems that want to use arcs other than 45º, 90º, 180º, or 360º is to stipulate bases that indicate the desired arc. Harder from a marketing/adoption standpoint but easier from a game play standpoint.

    As Always,

    The Bandit

    #65067
    Phil Dutré
    Phil Dutré
    Participant

    I didn’t know the Croats used ‘:’ as a symbol for division. Do any other countries do this?

    Of course. : is one of the standard symbols for division, ratios and scales.

    #65069
    Phil Dutré
    Phil Dutré
    Participant

    Firing arcs are one of those mechanisms that are avoidable in a ruleset if you want to.

    E.g. If you allow a free orientation at the end of movement, is a fire arc really necessary?

    You could also use a penalty for firing at two different targets in the same turn, thereby simulating the ‘cost’ for reorientation.

    Another typical isse are flanks – you could mechanisms that give penalties when being attacked from two different sides, instead of worrying about flanks. In essence, this comes down to allowing dree reorientation when you receive the first attack, something that many rulesets also allow.

    In our rules, if we use fire arcs, they are either 360, 180, or perhaps 90 degrees. Anything else is making things difficult for yourself.

     

    #65096
    Tim
    Tim
    Participant

    LOL, brilliant. Maybe I can time the paper work and whoever gets done first gets first shot off!

    Ridiculously easy to calculate.

    Just give each participant a compass & pencil, a ruler, some scrap paper, access to this Youtube video

    [youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gggQfqxfvTg?version=3&rel=1&fs=1&autohide=2&showsearch=0&showinfo=1&iv_load_policy=1&wmode=transparent%5D

    and 4-5 minutes of uninterrupted time (including a session where the GM can check answers).

    I would also recommend the GM sends out copies of past papers for revision well before the game. Evaluation should include formal feedback from the GM & use an A-E standard rather than spuriously accurate percentages. Some type of self-evaluation & peer feedback is urged.

    Should result in quite a game.

    donald

    #65098
    Tim
    Tim
    Participant

    Thank you all for your replies. I’m glad I asked – I think I’ll dump the 30° idea and stick with 45° and 90°.

    #65099
    Retroboom
    Retroboom
    Participant

    lol, love that

    www.RetroBoom.com
    Stafford, Va. Let's play!

    #65149
    John D Salt
    John D Salt
    Participant

    John D Salt wrote:

    thanks to my dreadful inability to understand Croatian,

    I can’t imagine why. It’s much the same language as Serbian, only written in the Roman rather than Cyrillic script.

    See, my problem is that I can’t understand much Serbian, either (though I did once make a flight announcement in it at Gatwick).

    Now I expect you to tell me that it shouldn’t be hard, as it’s much the same language as Croatian, only written in Cyrillic rather than Roman script.

    All the Croatians I know are lovely people, but I have never *really* forgiven them for the invention of the necktie. How the hell are we going to explain that one when the aliens arrive, eh?

    All the best,

    John.

    #65151
    John D Salt
    John D Salt
    Participant

    Thank you all for your replies. I’m glad I asked – I think I’ll dump the 30° idea and stick with 45° and 90°.

    <Mode = General Melchett> BAAAAH. </mode> I was hoping you would force NATO players to use NATO mils, and WARPAC players to use Soviet mils. That would give the appropriate warry feel, I think.

    All the best,

    John.

    #65152
    John D Salt
    John D Salt
    Participant

    I didn’t know the Croats used ‘:’ as a symbol for division. Do any other countries do this?

    Of course. : is one of the standard symbols for division, ratios and scales.

    In the UK — and I imagine other Engish-speaking countries too, but I haven’t checked — ‘:’ is used for ratios, but never as the division operator. So is it the whole world apart from English-speakers who use this? I’ve never seen it in France, but then not much of my time in France was spent dealing with division sums. Can’t recall seeing it in any Russian sources, either, but the same remark applies.

    All the best,

    John.

    #65154
    Cerdic
    Cerdic
    Participant

    Well I think this thread contains far too much maths….

    #65158
    Patrice
    Patrice
    Participant

    I didn’t know the Croats used ‘:’ as a symbol for division. Do any other countries do this?

    Of course. : is one of the standard symbols for division, ratios and scales.

    In the UK — and I imagine other Engish-speaking countries too, but I haven’t checked — ‘:’ is used for ratios, but never as the division operator. So is it the whole world apart from English-speakers who use this?

    Not sure that average people in the whole world can make a clear difference between ratio symbol and division operator…  … ‘:’ is understood in France, although it tends to be replaced by ‘÷’ and ‘/’.

    http://www.argad-bzh.fr/argad/en.html
    http://argad.forumculture.net/

Viewing 28 posts - 1 through 28 (of 28 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.