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  • #59248
    Avatar photokyoteblue
    Participant

    I am not all that much an expert, but I am seeing a lot of  3-D printed AFV’s being made and wonder how this will impact traditional manufacturing in the hobby.

    What do you think?

    #59249
    Avatar photokyoteblue
    Participant

    Er  not taking sides….

    #59250
    Avatar photoJust Jack
    Participant

    Not good timing 😉

    And, for what it’s worth, I think the two can happily co-exist alongside one another, just like this:

    V/R,
    Jack

    #59251
    Avatar photoAngel Barracks
    Moderator

    Depends, what do you mean by traditional?

    Right now, the quality of prints is such that there is no way I would offer them for sale.
    Not because you can’t get good enough for say a 6mm tank.
    But a 6mm tank printed without any visible lines (as you would expect from a resin or metal cast tank) would cost about £50.00.
    I use these prints as masters and do any slight tidying that may be needed, then offer them for sale at a rate people would be prepared to pay.

    I see a few companies offering 3d files for 28mm buildings for sale, last time I checked if you were to say use Shapeways you would be looking at over £300.00 for a 28mm sci-fi house…
    And that is with poor definition and lines all over the shop.

    #59254
    Avatar photokyoteblue
    Participant

    Just looking at the future. Not trying to start a fight.

    #59256
    Avatar photoMcKinstry
    Participant

    I see the risk to the industry really occurring only when the cost and quality come together at a point that home 3D printers reach the stage that home photo-quality PC printers achieved about 5 years ago. That still seems quite a ways off.

    The tree of Life is self pruning.

    #59257
    Avatar photoGeoffQRF
    Participant

    I’ve been watching the 3D industry for about 10 years now. It’s developing slowly, improving in quality as the price comes down, and I would say in another 15-20 years you may get closer to the home printer producing what we currently see as commercial level quality. I saw the same thing happen in the advertising and design industry with moves from traditional paste-up to CTP and digital print which, while cheaper and faster for short runs, is still neither the quality nor cost effectiveness of old fashioned litho.

    We have a couple of vehicles in currently production that were printed on high end top quality 3D printers – this is machines costing in the thousands to hundreds of thousands range. These masters cost about £200 each to print at that quality. Even there our critical designer/manufacture eye can see fine print lines and to clean them entirely would not be a viable use of time compared to more traditional methods; RTV or vulcanised moulding is able to pick up fingerprints in superglue; you can be sure it’s going to pick up print lines!

    As AB points out, the print resolution on home printers is really nothing like good enough for commercial quality yet. The end result is chunky detail and quite notable steps on sloped or especially curved surfaces. Fine items like gun barrels, sight blocks etc and particular victims.

    What I think you will see, and perhaps are starting to see, is the overall shape being 3D printed as a block which can then be easily cleaned without losing detail, because the detail isn’t there yet. The detail is then applied by hand the traditional way (plastic card, rod, strip and clay) before it is moulded in a traditional way for resin or metal casting. Personally I’m still not convinced that the quality is there, especially when you consider that the price level is about the same.

    QRF Models Limited
    www.quickreactionforce.co.uk

    #59266
    Avatar photowillz
    Participant

    I think in the next 5 – 10 years we will see 3D printing advancing and detail will and is getting better.  Look at the home PC market, 25 years ago 2 mega bites of memory was considered good enough, now look at how many mega bites you get in a laptop.  As pointed out home 3D printers are not there in the fine detail yet, I think 3D printing shops on the high street will start setting up in the next couple of years.  So in 10 years you will go to a wargame show, see a beautifully 3D printed and painted army.  Then buy a memory stick with a one time code with the number and quality of figures you want, take it to your local high street 3D print shop, pay them for a print run.  For example 300 25mm 3D printed marching 18th century infantry (with officers, drummers) unpainted £120, or same number of figures with block colour no shading £240, or same army full colour and shading £360.  Pure guess work on prices but I hope you catch my gist.

    #59286
    Avatar photoGeoffQRF
    Participant

    I can see high street bureau shops setting up, much like the digital print era did, whereby you can take in your file and have it printed on their high quality machines; in effect this is what places like Shapeways are already doing.

    However the ‘press a button and get a fully painted and shaded figure’ option is highly likely to remain firmly in the realms of Star Trek for quite some time. Wargaming is very much a niche market, not really high street, so it is more likely to be generic print shops printing one-off items than being set up to run 300 off one item.

    QRF Models Limited
    www.quickreactionforce.co.uk

    #59288
    Avatar photoNot Connard Sage
    Participant

    It’s most definitely a solution that’s in search of a problem 🙂

     

    And Geoff’s comments are certainly more in line with the real world practicalities than those of the starry-eyed visionaries.

    Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

    #59295
    Avatar photoKaptain Kobold
    Participant

    As others have said, home-printing will give you something with a dodgy quality of figures; think back in the 70s or 80s. If you want pretty prints you pay for someone else to do them, and pay through the nose.

    I don’t know when home-printing will take off. I guess it depends on what other industries or services latch on to the idea that people can make certain items themselves thus driving a market for the printers. I have one, but its used almost exclusively for wargames stuff.

    If you want to do a comparison, here’s a link to pictures of my 28mm Dwarf army for ‘Hordes of the Things’. Half of it is made up of Mantic plastic figures. The other half is made up of items downloaded from Thingiverse and printed on my cheap home-printer.

    http://hordesofthethings.blogspot.com.au/2017/02/army-showcase-dwarves.html

    #59296
    Avatar photoGeoffQRF
    Participant

    Nice dwarves!

    QRF Models Limited
    www.quickreactionforce.co.uk

    #59307
    Avatar photoDarkest Star Games
    Participant

    Ya, until not just print quality and cost, but SPEED of print all come to a point where a “perfect” quality figure can be printed up in less than an hour there isn’t much impact on miniatures companies.  Honestly, the proliferation of Kickstarters is the MUCH bigger threat, as we are at least 10 years off from fast quality home printing.

    "I saw this in a cartoon once, but I'm pretty sure I can do it..."

    #59310
    Avatar photoPatG
    Participant

    I have a Reprap hobby printer that’s a couple of generations old at this point. I have printed some hobby items with it and will be printing more in the future. Yes lines are an issue and a very big one for commercial production. However, if you want a couple of a rare or low commercial value models, a printer is great. In my case there is a 1:100 Beaverette armoured car on Thingiverse that I will be scaling up to 1:56 and printing. It’s going to be ugly but I can’t get one otherwise.

    I have also done a line of 15mm SF vehicles of my own design. at .1 mm layer height the lines are minimal for my purposes and again, these vehicles are unique to me (and the one other person I shared the files with). I have had a lot more success in terms of finish with a series of British bunkers, and some VSF/fantasy boats in this case the coarse surface finish adds to the look of the model.

    I have looked into making masters of the 15mm vehicles and as Geoff and Michael have said it would cost a couple of hundred dollars each to get a product suitable for production and sales.

    Home 3d printers have a niche role to play in gaming but even with the more recent models, you are effectively adding in a second 3d printing hobby. You will be spending time tweaking.

    Now the elephant in the room – designs. Recall the programming adage: you only get to pick two of Good, Cheap or Fast. Getting decent objects to print takes time or money and in the latter case, you may still not find the model you are looking for or wind up paying a lot for it (good 3d artists are not cheap). If you don’t want to pay for a custom model or rely on what you find on the net for free, then you are going to have to learn some sort of design program. That for me has been the biggest investment.   And you are not done yet – detail on models doesn’t always scale well, some methods and materials for printing are better for some types of prints than others (resin is great for detail but is very fragile), some free models are oriented in a way that only prints well on a certain type of printer. All of this extra knowledge has to be acquired and assimilated.

    That said it is a fun and interesting hobby and there is nothing like taking something you designed in your head and holding it in your hand.

    #59315
    Avatar photoGeoffQRF
    Participant

    Detail on models doesn’t always scale well…

    …there is a 1:100 Beaverette armoured car on Thingiverse that I will be scaling up to 1:56…

    I think you are going to find that especially true there!

     

    QRF Models Limited
    www.quickreactionforce.co.uk

    #59328
    Avatar photoPatG
    Participant

    Detail on models doesn’t always scale well… …there is a 1:100 Beaverette armoured car on Thingiverse that I will be scaling up to 1:56… I think you are going to find that especially true there!

    Yup that is my expectation.   Peripheral to what you said above, I may print a second copy in ABS, vapour treat it smooth then add detail over top.

    #59334
    Avatar photoJimi Tubman
    Participant

    I started printing 15mm vehicles for AK-47 and used the appropriate files for it. I then went onto printing 10mm vehicles and got the same great results.

    Scaling up 3-d files is not the answer – the detail doesn’t improve when, say, up-scaling a 1:100 Sherman to 1:56. Best to use files specifically for the scale you are trying to print.

    I’ve never bought a vehicle in the 9 months I’ve had my Makerbot Replicator 2, and now restrict my purchases to figures. I’m sure there will be the day when the quality of these will improve, but currently and with a few exceptions, 3-d printed figures are not good especially 28mm ones.

    #59361
    Avatar photogcmini
    Participant

    I’ve been utilizing “3D Printing” technology for about 15 years or so … long before it was called “3D Printing”.  The technology has come a long way.  I have had several FDM machines (the ones most of you are familiar with that use a plastic filament and extrude it through a heated nozzle) including a $105k machine that was the size of an American refrigerator.  I’ve also had a few desktop versions over the years.  These machines are great for quick prototypes and sometimes they are useful for masters that you are going put a lot of work into cleaning up and adding details to so that you can make a master for molding.  In my opinion these FDM/FFF machines are still a long way from being ready to produce models that are ready for sale straight off the machine.  …. and they may never be ready for that,,, that is not the purpose for which they were designed.  They are prototyping machines.
    There are people producing models on these machines and selling them ,,, and good luck to them, but I don’t think I’d ever consider a model made from FDM/FFF technology, especially anything with low sloped surfaces (think of the hood (bonnet) of a car or the wing of an airplane,,, the layer lines create a stair-step look that in my opinion is unacceptable.  If you are considering purchasing a model made with this technology, insist on very close up (Macro) photos, not photos taken from a foot away or more.

    The gold standard in additive manufacturing (AKA “3D Printing”) is Stereophotography (SLA).  This is the process where a vat of liquid resin is cured one very tiny layer at a time by either a laser or DLP projector.  These machines create models with nearly no discernible layer lines at all and require little clean up.  Still, I would not take a model straight off a SLA machine and paint it and use it.  I have an SLA machine in my shop and I use often to create masters that will eventually be molded.  But when you think of any technology like this, you have to think of it as just one more tool in your arsenal of tools.  When I create a master on my SLA machine, that is just the first step in the process.  There are hours of additional work that is done after the 3D model is “printed”.

    These technologies are here to stay and they are getting better and cheaper all the time.  My machine cost several thousand dollars, but just a few years ago I would not have been able to get anything on this level for less than the cost of a very nice European luxury automobile.  Additive Manufacturing will continue to impact and shape our industry … but I do not see a huge change coming anytime soon.  You still need talented model makers to work with what the machines produce and then you need mold makers and casters to take it from there.  Just designing something in your favorite CAD program and pressing “Print” on the machine is just step one in a lengthy process.

    These are just the opinions of a 30+ year full-time professional model maker … your opinions may differ.   But this is what I do for a living 🙂

    Allen Rockwell
    GameCraft Miniatures
    Business: www.gcmini.com
    My Blog: www.allensmicroarmor.com

    #59368
    Avatar photoGuy Farrish
    Participant

    Thanks Allen, fascinating – I had no idea this method had been in development for so long.

    What I’m not sure of is why there is so much interest in disseminating production to local ‘print shops’.

    Is buying physical models so difficult? And I can see huge problems with copyright/unauthorised copying once print programs are out there which would make me, if I were a designer, reluctant to sell in this manner.

    Useful perhaps for a US manufacturer to transfer masters to European producers and vice versa rather than physically ship product with all the postage/handling costs but to licensee manufacturers rather than end users.

    Of course it’s worth knowing that I preferred BetaMax (they were smaller and better quality for goodness sake!).

     

    #59373
    Avatar photoGeoffQRF
    Participant

    What I’m not sure of is why there is so much interest in disseminating production to local ‘print shops’

    Much like the printing industry, the print shops will invest in high quality (expensive) machines that are beyond the financial scope of the normal home buyer. It’s a bit like taking your photos to the shop to have them developed, rather than buying the kit to develop them at home – you can do it yourself, but it’s much more fiddly and the quality may not be as good whereas the shop will buy a $xxx,000 machine (and cover all the associated maintenance costs). They then have to get as much business as possible to feed the beast… As I said, this is basically what Shapeways does.

    Is buying physical models so difficult?

    No, but it can take a little longer to get them shipped to you. Print on demand satisfies consumer instant gratification.

    And I can see huge problems with copyright/unauthorised copying once print programs are out there which would make me, if I were a designer, reluctant to sell in this manner.

    This is a whole other can of worms….

    QRF Models Limited
    www.quickreactionforce.co.uk

    #59387
    Avatar photoGuy Farrish
    Participant

    Geoff, sorry, I should perhaps have been clearer – I understand why you would use a print shop vice home production, I don’t get the print shop vice factory/central manufacturer.

    I suppose the ‘instant’ gratification works to an extent but how many print shops will there be? Given other users requirements (presumably wargamers alone wouldn’t make this a viable option) and how many you figures might want, I wonder if the time saving will be that great?

    Depends on the manufacturer I suppose- some turn around orders in a couple of days – others – well I’m into the third week of waiting for one at the moment – I’m a patient guy who grew up in the era of send for a catalogue, post a postal order off and a few months after first interest wonder what this parcel was all about when it arrived, so it’s okay for me but I can see that may irk the younger generation.

    #59453
    Avatar photoKaptain Kobold
    Participant

    Ya, until not just print quality and cost, but SPEED of print all come to a point where a “perfect” quality figure can be printed up in less than an hour there isn’t much impact on miniatures companies. Honestly, the proliferation of Kickstarters is the MUCH bigger threat, as we are at least 10 years off from fast quality home printing.

    Yes, speed is certainly an issue. Obviously it depends on printer, materials, the nature of the model and settings, but three 28mm dwarves will take five hours to print. A warmachine I printed the other day took fourteen hours. Yes, it’s still quicker than ordering them, but it’s not the ‘instant gratifiation’ that people assume. And bear in mind that those speeds are for the rough and ready quality as well.

    #59480
    Avatar photoRod Robertson
    Participant

    And I can see huge problems with copyright/unauthorised copying once print programs are out there which would make me, if I were a designer, reluctant to sell in this manner.

    If hobbyists are printing their minis for personal use and not for sale then what copyright issues exist? If I buy a book and then decide to copy or photocopy part or all of the book for personal use, that is perfectly legal from what I understand; so long as I am not making money from what I am copying. What’s to stop a non-commercial collective of hobbyists swapping files for non-commercial private use? If one copies for sale, then that is illegal. If one copies for personal use then that is lawful. If one tries to bend copyright law to protect potential lost earnings for products freely given then one may as well declare all gift giving illegal and yoke us all to live as consumer serfs in a commercial domain. Commercial interests will try to stop this de-commercialisation by bending the law to their own self-interest but this will be a temporary phase as more and more of the hobby passes out of the commercial realm and back into the private realm where the law has no sway.

    To all:

    3-D printers will just be the next disruptive technology to up-end existing commercial conventions. There will be an attempt to enclose the freedoms of ownership, as there always is, but that will fail. When 3-D printing technology meets better digital mapping technology then one could quickly design one’s own figures by mapping an open source digital skin over blocks which depict various poses. Then there is no artistic or creative claim to be made and no moral compromise in making, sharing and even selling such minis. With respect to machinery, one could use historical data in the public domain to make vehicles, guns and buildings, thus removing the claims that any commercial producer might have. As always there will be a period of transition when commercial interests try to legally bully and frighten the public into maintaining the status quo which favours the business interests but that too will fail and pass. The hobby will flourish but the business will wither gradually. The marked transition will begin in 5-8 years and the transformation will be complete for all intents and purposes in about 20 years.

    Cheers? and good gaming.

    Rod Robertson.

     

    #59483
    Avatar photogcmini
    Participant

    What’s to stop a non-commercial collective of hobbyists swapping files for non-commercial private use?  Rod Robertson.

    What’s to stop you?  Copyright law for one.

    Remember Napster?  That was a “non-commercial collective of hobbyists swapping files for non-commercial private use”  ,,,, and it was illegal.  It’s called Piracy.

    Using that logic, what’s to stop someone from buying a physical miniature at your local hobby shop, making a mold of it, and casting a few dozen of them and giving away copies to all his friends …. again, the law is the answer.

    Allen Rockwell
    GameCraft Miniatures
    Business: www.gcmini.com
    My Blog: www.allensmicroarmor.com

    #59484
    Avatar photoRod Robertson
    Participant

    Allen:

    In Canada, where I live, I’ve already paid to copy music in the private copying levy built into the initial price of purchase for the music and the copying medium.

    “In 1997 Canada’s Copyright Act was changed to allow Canadians to copy music onto blank audio recording media for their private use. In return, the private copying levy was created to provide compensation to music creators for the use of their music. Canadians pay a small levy on the blank audio recording media ordinarily used for private copying.”

    Just like private libraries can lend out, give away or even sell books from their stacks, so should hobbyists be permitted to trade figures and files so long as no money changes hands. Second-hand bookstores, record shops, and craft fairs do this all the time. How much of our freedom must we sacrifice to protect others’ desires to make a profit?

    Allen wrote:

    “Using that logic, what’s to stop someone from buying a physical miniature at your local hobby shop, making a mold of it, and casting a few dozen of them and giving away copies to all his friends …. again, the law is the answer.”

    In the 1970’s and early 80’s I often made copies of model parts like wheels and storage boxes to add stowage to my models and my friends and I would swap such copies freely and legally. It was the enclosure of our freedoms in the 1980’s which made this technically illegal but custom and tradition can’t be over-written by legislation. Custom and ussage is as important a basis for law as is legislation and regulation. Copyright lawyers seem to forget this as their pay checks are signed by the commercial interests who benefit from the enclosure of our common and traditional rights and freedoms. We must all become modern-day Levellers and Diggers in order to push back against the legionary lawyers and their enclosure of our rights.

    Then how does a gamer give away his mini collection as a causa mortis gift or a testamentary bequeath if he does not have full ownership of it and cannot enjoy the rights of ownership, namely usus, abusus and fructus? If I buy and scrounge second hand parts to a Toro lawn mower I can assemble them and give or even sell the fruits of my property and labour away even though I did not design the parts. So why can’t a hobbyist copy minis for personal use so long as he/she does not sell them for profit? Copyright law allows for inter vivos, causa mortis and testamentary gifts and the swapping of minis or files should fall under this umbrella.

    Perhaps I wasn’t clear in my post above. I was talking specifically about the exchange of open source, digital files created by hobbyists and outside the scope of copyright law as it stands today. Hobbyists creating and sharing digital minis for the sake of their friends and peers without a commercial interest involved. Not the piracy of minis made and sold by business interests. I have however widened the scope in this follow-up post.

    Cheers and good gaming.

    Rod Robertson.

     

    #59486
    Avatar photoAngel Barracks
    Moderator

    Cash and profit is irrelevant when IP and copying is involved.
    If I made copies of a film and gave it away to my friends I would be breaking the law, not charging for it makes no odds.

    Then how does a gamer give away his mini collection as a causa mortus gift or a testamentary bequeath if he does not have full ownership of it and cannot enjoy the rights of ownership, namely usus, abusus and fructus?

    The gamer owns that model, not the design, not the IP.
    The models can be given away, the design can not.

    Perhaps I wasn’t clear in my post above. I was talking about the exchange of open source, digital files created by hobbyists and outside the scope of copyright law as it stands today.

    Things created, for profit or not are still protected.
    IF the owner grants the right to copy to anyone that is another matter, but they at still protected by copyright law.

    #59494
    Avatar photoMike
    Keymaster

    It is worth keeping in mind that when discussing IP and Copyright in a place where people create products for their living, that they will be perhaps, passionate about protecting their product.

    Hopefully this will not result in anything uncivil.

     

    #59498
    Avatar photoGeoffQRF
    Participant

    Ok there are a few things here… it’s a little complicated, and this is based on uk law, although other western jurisdictions are fundamentally similar

    If someone creates a 3D file, they automatically own the copyright on that unless:

    1. It was created during the course of their employment (or depending what it says in the contract of employment); or

    2. They assign the copyright elsewhere.

    Of course just because A owns the copyright, it doesn’t mean B can’t copy it… if A says he can. Quite literally, he can give the right to copy, without actually giving up the ownership of the copyright itself.

    As Mike says, when you buy something generally you have the right to own it, and sell it, but not reproduce it. This is generally the piracy issue, and personal use or profit is irrelevant. Personal use only merely makes it harder to be discovered, and profit merely affects the level of damages.

    Now, there is a new thing on the market… with people selling STL files that you can print yourself. You buy the file once, then can print as many as you want. However you still don’t own rights to do whatever you want. Technically you merely have the right to print for yourself and, depending on the terms at the time of purchase, could be in legal hot water if you sell copies of the STL file, or potentially even retail items printed from the file. The weirdest one I’ve seen lately is a kickstarter to produce an STL file. Weird because kickstarters are ways to raise capital in advance, to produce an item, but most people selling STL files are making them themselves, so it’s raising money in advance just to pay for their own time.

    Its not entirely new. I’ve bought PDF files from Scalescene for plain brick so I can print off as many brick sheets as I want, which I use to make up walls and buildings for model railways. However my ownership is limited with terms and conditions.

    Buying an STL with permission to reproduce is not piracy. However there may be other issues with items that are recognisably unique design concepts. Sell an STL of a Panzer IV and you are probably fine, but sell an STL of a Star Wars X Wing or Games Workshop Spacd Marine and you can expect a letter.

    QRF Models Limited
    www.quickreactionforce.co.uk

    #59500
    Avatar photoRod Robertson
    Participant

    Interesting reading:

    http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/gadgets/a8937/our-intellectual-property-laws-are-out-of-control-15467970/

    and:

    https://mises.org/library/ideas-are-free-case-against-intellectual-property

    Finally, for your viewing pleasure:

    No, I’m not a Libertarian. The video does make some very good points about the coercive nature of copyright law to enforce claims which are not rights and to create imperfect monopolies in place of competition.

    Cheers and good gaming.

    Rod Robertson.

    #59540
    Avatar photoAnonymous
    Inactive

    Hopefully this won’t become a political discussion any more than the last post skirts.

    #59546
    Avatar photoGuy Farrish
    Participant

    Difficult, but it is about the future of 3D printing, not discussion about the merits of existing copyright legislation, so we may escape?

    I wrote a response, particularly in relation to the ‘video’, (I don’t recognise most of the ‘history’ – 19th century British writers had no problem with US publishers not paying royalties because there wasn’t a copyright agreement! I presume the prof’s reading didn’t extend to Dickens?!) but it strayed into politics so I binned it.

    Safest to say – the law is as Geoff outlined and if you don’t like it – campaign elsewhere.

    (But the arguments in Rod’s piece are exactly the ones that would make me think several times about releasing 3D programs into the wild if I had spent hours perfecting them.)

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