Home Forums WWII A39 Tortoise Heavy Assault Tank

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  • #99655
    deephorse
    Participant

    I quite like a bit of what-if and Luftwaffe ‘46 in my late-war games.  Some time ago I bought a 1/72 U.S. T28 and enjoyed putting together the stats so as to be able to use it in a game.  Today an A39 Tortoise arrived and I want to do the same for it.

    I can’t see any books about the Tortoise anywhere, and ‘reliable’ information online looks a bit thin.  The Wiki article is of little use.  The Military Factory website says that the Tortoise could penetrate a Panther at 1,000 yards, but is that the   side or the front, and it gives no references for its article.  The War Thunder website gives all the information I need, but this is from a computer game, so how reliable can that be?  Again they give no references that I can see.

    Can anyone point me towards information on the Tortoise, such as armour penetration values, that are ‘official”?

    Thanks.

    • This topic was modified 2 years, 9 months ago by deephorse.

    Less enthusiasm, please. This is Britain.

    #99669
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    Did the main gun ever undergo trials as an anti-tank weapon? I know it was mooted as a replacement for the 17pdr, but was ditched in favour of the 20pdr in post-war Centurions.

     

    Data for the 20pdr should be easier to find, and extrapolate from maybe?

    "I go online sometimes, but everyone's spelling is really bad. It's... depressing."

    #99673
    cmnash
    Participant

    Well, after having seen one at Bovington, I drove one in World of Tanks, and can honestly say, it doesn’t turn quickly enough …

    But, enough of that rubbish, perhaps this helps:  https://www.tankmuseum.org/museum-online/vehicles/object-e1951-32

    edited: This page has a bit more detail on armour:  http://www.armourinfocus.co.uk/a39/a39txt.htm

    .

    #99674
    cmnash
    Participant

    On the page reached by the second link in my previous post, I found this at the bottom of the page:

    32 Pounder Performance

    Whilst visiting the Bovington Library I made a few quick notes on the performance of the 32-pdr taken from the report of the tank trials dated May-July 1948.

    Preliminary trials gave penetration of Panther armour at 950 yards at 30 degrees.

    Subsequent testing at 1350 yards (again against a Panther) had the following results:

    Shot 1 plugged the armour.
    Shot 2 shot away the lower section of the gun mantlet with the deflected shot lifting the drivers plate 3-4 inches the shot ending up under the turret floor.
    Shot 3 coincided with a previous round.
    Shots 4 and 5 caused considerable fragmentation inside the turret
    The observation of shot was said to be better than that of the Centurion and the performance of 32-pdr APCBC being considered better than that of 20-pdr APDS.

    .

    #99676
    deephorse
    Participant

    Thanks for those quick replies.  Very useful information there.

    Less enthusiasm, please. This is Britain.

    #99695
    John D Salt
    Participant

    I have only two sources on this.

    WO 219/2806 “Appendix G to SHAEF/16652/GCT/Arty” gives the following penetration performance (in mm) for 32-pdr against MQ plate at 30 degrees:

              APCBC    APDS
     600 yds   138      215
    1000 yds   131      205
    1600 yds   121      189
    2000 yds   115      180
    

    A document from “World of Tanks” discussion, not identified by NA piece number but clearly from a WW2-era British official report, contains a table titled “Perforation performances of British, American, German and Japanese tanks an A/tk guns against homogeneous armour at 30° attack”. This gives the following figures (in mm), which match for APDS, but are more generous for APCBC:

              APCBC    APDS
       0 yds   178      232
     500 yds   168      218
    1000 yds   158      205
    1500 yds   148      192
    2000 yds   139      180
    

    From the era of the reports, I would expect the penetration criterion applied to be the W/R limit, that is, 50% of shot cores clean through the plate, but that is just (somewhat informed) speculation.

    All the best,

    John.

    #99713
    grizzlymc
    Participant

    That 30 pound shot doesn’t slow much over 2km. Did the 32 pdr have any direct descent to the 105mm tank gun?

    #99771
    deephorse
    Participant

    Thanks John, I was hoping that you’d see this and come up with something.

    Less enthusiasm, please. This is Britain.

    #99800
    Abwehrschlacht
    Participant

    I can add very little to this except show off that apart from the example at Bovington, the only other remaining Tortoise is at Kirkcudbright Training Range, where I monitor the historic and archaeological assets, including the historic military assets, of which the A39 is one.

    Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNUYwNznn-ZuNMoHoF3urwQ

    Blog: http://www.stormofsteelwargaming.com

    #99805
    deephorse
    Participant

    Are they shooting at the poor thing?  There is a Matilda I, or is it a sieve, on the way into Bovington car park. Good job they have an intact one inside.

    • This reply was modified 2 years, 8 months ago by deephorse.

    Less enthusiasm, please. This is Britain.

    #99807
    Abwehrschlacht
    Participant

    No, it’s no longer a target. It has suffered some damage from decades ago though.

    Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNUYwNznn-ZuNMoHoF3urwQ

    Blog: http://www.stormofsteelwargaming.com

    #99808
    deephorse
    Participant

    Thanks. Just found several photos of it via Google images.

    Less enthusiasm, please. This is Britain.

    #99812
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    I wonder what they were shooting at it?

    "I go online sometimes, but everyone's spelling is really bad. It's... depressing."

    #99814
    Abwehrschlacht
    Participant

    I’m not sure for the A39, but a more-informed-than-me fella told me they were shooting 30mm cannons at a Patton that we have on the Otterburn ranges and the damage looks not dissimilar.

    Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNUYwNznn-ZuNMoHoF3urwQ

    Blog: http://www.stormofsteelwargaming.com

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