Home Forums Ambush Alley Games Force on Force Ambush Alley Questions and thoughts

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  • #150541
    Stephen Madjanovich
    Participant

    I am asking here as there is no Ambush Alley! specific section of this forum. I will also make a personal sheet of all the Q & As and interpretations brought up here. I did not see either of my question or thought covered yet (please direct me if I missed either please). For now I am limiting myself to the Ambush Alley rules to begin with. Although I did search Force on Force and reviewed the FoF FAQs and designer notes and the FoF errata and don’t see them covered or answered there.

    Q Does a unit which is forced to pull back and cannot reach cover in it’s 6″ pull back result does;
    It have to continue to move until it is in cover regardless of how many turns that takes?
    It cannot regroup unless in cover?
    OR
    Can it automatically declare it is “in cover” as per page 25 if it is not “exposed”?

    This is very unclear as by the rules for morale pull back I only see the first two conditions applying.

    Another thought on unit centre. Rather than using the geographic centre of the unit has anyone considered using the leader (if available) as the centre of the unit (it’s “focus”). Units without leaders (insurgents only) would have to still use the centre of the unit.

    I ask as I feel the rules as written seem awkward. Since regular units have both cohesion and leaders I feel this may speed some aspects of the game up. Is it needed or not? Do things play as obvious with individually based figures? The only times I played were with fire team based figures where it was easy to determine the centre of the unit. Thank you in advance.

    #150597
    maggico
    Participant

    “It can move up to 6” to find cover (regardless of how far it has already moved), but must move into the nearest covered position that does not require movement towards enemy units.”

    This is what the rule say. I use that in the case of a pull back, until they reach a covered position, they continue the pull back.

    For the centre: yes I use the leader for the regular to count for the move of the team. For the irregulars, I use to indicate a figure, that must be in the middle of the group and use it as reference.

    #150677
    Stephen Madjanovich
    Participant

    Thank you for the reply.

    I have played a game (Contracting Trouble!) and came up with the following question. I looked through the FoF rule book and it is not covered there either. Possibly or probably it may be addressed somewhere but it came up so here goes.

    How far does a unit move vertically? I played it where if they started adjacent to the building, or on the building, for a full movement they could reach the roof (since no levels indicated in the scenario (or the rules I could see)  or go from the roof to the ground beside the building. I used this for the regulars initially and it allowed them to shut down a couple of hot spots (5 and 4). I also had 11 irregulars plus an RPG guy and leader appear at hot spot 3 (top of a building) so allowed them to go down.

    Another question just came up. I see nothing in AA! on how to shut down a hot spot (maybe just missed it). Is there a rule? If not I assume ending a move on it will shut it down. I also allowed the irregulars to “open it up” again if they did the same. In my game an irregular force ended on spot 4 later in the game so, if it was not the end game anyways, I would have allowed it to reactivate.

    Thoughts?

    #150678
    Stephen Madjanovich
    Participant

    Just found the procedure for neutralizing hot spots. Page 10 fourth paragraph in the ARRIVAL OF INSURGENT REINFORCEMENTS section. You need to spend an entire turn on the hot spot. There is no way to return a hot spot and if a unit would reinforce there they are lost.

    #150705
    Stephen Madjanovich
    Participant

    Next question. On page 35 table 1 under morale leaderless insurgents take a moral check every time they come under fire.

    Does this occur before the results of the fire take effect?
    If so, and a shaken result occurs does this happen before the effects of the fire happen? That would mean the unit retreats from the fire and that fire has no effect.
    Then, since the enemy shrinks away the regular unit still has to be treated as if it performed a reaction.

    If the result is just added to the morale check (if needed) after fire then why have this second roll? It only makes sense if it forces the irregular unit away.

    Sure the irregular unit would not take casualties this way but I see it as a more likely result. The irregulars, without the moral support of a leader present, shrink away from potential fire before it can be effective. They move further away and also lose their action for that game turn.

    #150758
    maggico
    Participant

    How far does a unit move vertically?

    I assume that the team move the distance at tactical speed (6″), then if the roof is at 6″ from the ground, then the team is on the roof.

    Does this occur before the results of the fire take effect?

    I use to make this check before, then apply the result of the fire and, last, apply the total result. Then if my unit fail the morale check, don’t start to be shaken until the effects of the fire are applied.

    #151002
    Stephen Madjanovich
    Participant

    How far does a unit move vertically?

    I assume that the team move the distance at tactical speed (6″), then if the roof is at 6″ from the ground, then the team is on the roof.

    I have been thinking hard on this one for the last while and decided on “house ruling” the following.

    A unit which starts a turn adjacent to a building or wall takes an entire turn to “climb” one level if stairs are not present. If a unit has access to stairs (either interior or exterior) every level of change in (or on) a building takes half a turn of movement and, units can only move at cautious rate the turn they use stairs. So to go up (or down) one level takes 3″ of movement.

    Does this occur before the results of the fire take effect?

    I use to make this check before, then apply the result of the fire and, last, apply the total result. Then if my unit fail the morale check, don’t start to be shaken until the effects of the fire are applied.

    Personally I like the idea that irregular units which come under fire as a result of interruptions may immediately be forced to abandon any further action or be subject to casualties but forced to pull back has a “good feel” to it, it seems the consensus (here and in Just Jack’s Ambush Alley thread) is those units would still be subject to the effects of that fire. So even if a leaderless insurgent unit fails it’s first morale check (by coming under fire at all) it still takes casualties from that fire even if it immediately is shaken.

     

    I think I should also mention I play in 15mm so each story would be about 1″ high. I also am assuming any building in the scenarios (unless otherwise stated) will only be a single story high.

    Similarly walls high enough to cover a person require a turn to climb and get over. So you would start adjacent to a wall then end the movement for the turn on the opposite side. Shorter walls, enough to give cover take half a turn’s movement. So you could start 3″ away from a short wall and end movement adjacent to the other side or alternatively start adjacent to a wall, cross it and still be able to move 3″.

     

    Again all these are my “house rules” as none of these seem to be addressed in AA, or FoF that I can see. If it is addressed in FoF please send me to the right place as if I am making up things not in AA but in FoF (or Tomorrow’s War), or any of the supplements, and I would rather import from an existing rule (especially based on the assumption I will be using FoF in future). Thank you all for your feedback and thoughts.

    #151010
    maggico
    Participant

    Common sense must prevail for buildings that are three or four stories tall, of course.
    Figures within a building may move from one story to another at will without expending movement to do so.

    This is the rule at page 58 of the FoF rules. I start from this assumption. I play in 1/72, aka 20mm, so it’s not difficult that a multi storeis building are more tall than 6″.

    Rules state that tactic movement is 6″, counting all the problem that you may find on your path. From this rule, I organize my movement.

    Sure, this must be accepted and understand by all my friends/opponents.

    #151017
    Stephen Madjanovich
    Participant

    Great. Thank you for showing where you got it from. Mine is totally my opinion. I searched FoF but didn’t see it. I wonder if it was changed or detailed more in one of the supplements(?) like Fallujah, as that one deals (I assume) with combat in urban areas.

    #153881
    Stephen Madjanovich
    Participant

    maggico

    Thanks for the post. I looked it up (been doing other things lately including too much Youtube) and it is located under terrain, buildings in FoF. I looked in some of the other seemingly appropriate supplements but nothing to contradict FoF.

    So, in my interpretation, you can freely MOVE UP OR DOWN ONE LEVEL per turn at no movement cost IF YOU ARE ALREADY IN A BUILDING (my emphasis). Not as bad as I feared, only a single level and only if you start in the building. So for most houses, offices, apartments and smaller factories or warehouses I can see you moving anywhere in the building or anywhere and up or down a level. Entering a building is covered under house clearing and the rules (elsewhere?) state something like you have 360 vision and weapons coverage with all troops in the building. It is assumed there is either enough windows or doors or any building in a war zone has sufficient damage to provide openings.

    I still will make house rules to allow you to “climb” levels (ropes or unaided climbing) and move over walls or other obstructions of various heights.

    #153952
    maggico
    Participant

    I think that your interpretation is an interesting idea.  When possible I’ll check it.

    #154331
    Stephen Madjanovich
    Participant

    Here is my attempt at introducing more detailed rules for walls in Ambush Alley!

     

    Expanded rules for walls in cover and movement.

    These rules are applied to Line of Sight and Line of Fire, pages 16 and 17.

    Walls which are less than man height still provide cover under the following conditions.
    The firer and target are on the same level.
    The firer is one level higher (storey in a building or about 10 feet or 3 meters of hill, etc.) and the wall is closer to the target than the firer.
    The firer is more than one level higher and the target is 1″ or less behind the wall.

    Walls which are about man height to a storey high provide cover;
    if the target and firer are on the same level.
    if the firer is one level higher and the wall is two thirds of the way from the target to the firer. (so a target 12″ from the firer is protected if the wall is up to and including 8″ away from the target.
    if the firer is above one level higher than the target and the target is 2″ or less behind the wall.

    Add the following to Movement, pages 22 and 23.

    Walls which are less than man height cost 2″ of movement to cross.
    To cross walls man height to one storey high require regulars to start adjacent to the wall, spend their entire movement allowance climbing over the wall and end that turn adjacent to and on the opposite side of the wall.
    A regular unit may spend an entire turn’s movement to climb one storey of building, wall or cliff face.

    Cover (p25 under cover dice)

    A regular unit may treat a soft skin vehicle as providing “In cover” level of defense.

    #154347
    maggico
    Participant

    Interesting. Some of these I used in my scenarios, but some are really good interpretations. I save your thoughts for next time (very next time with the lock down in effect).

    #154350
    Stephen Madjanovich
    Participant

    Please revisit my thread on scenario 2 as I put some of this thread’s discussion into that one. Thank you.

    #154447
    Stephen Madjanovich
    Participant

    So these will be the last of my attempts to add into the Ambush Alley! rules. I think anything after this could be “just use Force on Force” or similar If people would like seeing my house rules let me know and I will keep posting. At this point I will probably start incorporating bits of other rules sets and might change base aspects of AA so I can’t see that being of benefit or use to others. If someone wants to create a crowdsourced version of AA 2nd edition I would be happy to contribute but keep in mind what I have said above.

    I am writing this for 15mm figures as that is what I use. If you want to use these in another scale I leave it up to the gamers to change the sizes of buildings to reflect that. If you have ideas or input please post here for others to use. As always this is my ideas and interpretations your mileage may vary. I am going to try to lay this document out to match the written rules as in the section title and the original page where rules addressing that aspect of these changes would be located.

    I may repeat myself here as the original of this document included my work on walls. Use the original post as primary as I am only considering buildings in this post.

     

    First I have split buildings into two sizes. Structures approximately the size of a large(ish) single family home and then larger buildings. To differentiate any building larger in both horizontal dimensions than 4″ (10 cm-pick one unit of measure) or higher than 4 storeys including a flat or occupiable roof is considered a large building. The others are just buildings by these rules. A building can be treated as a large building if significant, say a target building or one which has some significance to the scenario requiring more detail or application of some aspect of these rules. Players should be in agreement on this. For simplicity buildings have no underground floors.

    SET UP THE TABLE page 9

    Every large building requires a separate map of each floor of the building either on table or just off for player(s) to place their figures where they are inside that building. It is to be the same size as the model it represents. An area around the inside perimeter of the building 2″ wide defines the area exposed to the exterior forces. The remaining area is called the center and is not exposed nor is the area on one side exposed to external forces on the other side unless they can trace a LOS from one perimeter area to the other without touching the center area.

    Optionally players may add interior details such as walls, furniture, machinery, storage etc. but this is not needed nor covered in these rules.

    PLACE INSURGENT HOT SPOTS page 9

    A hot spot in a multistorey building MUST state which floor it is located. They are always located in the exact center of the center area for large buildings and the center of the model for buildings on that level. Almost always for buildings this will be the ground floor. Large buildings may have subterranean floors designated as the hot spot or the ground level or possibly the roof in the case of helicopter placed troops.

    SET UP REGULAR UNITS
    SET UP INSURGENT UNITS PAGE 10

    Any forces beginning the game or occupying a building during the game are to be placed preferably on the building roof, or if not stable adjacent to that building. They will have a counter or card placed beneath the figures indicating the floor they occupy after movement. Forces occupying a large building are to occupy the map of the appropriate floor.

    UNIT COHESION page 13

    Any forces with a cohesion distance of 2″ may be placed over two adjacent floors. All others must occupy the same floor level.

    LINE OF SIGHT (LOS) page 16

    Forces in a building have 360 vision and weapons coverage with all troops in the building. LOS is not blocked by the building into it or out of it but is blocked through it. It is assumed there is either enough windows or doors or any building in a war zone has sufficient damage to provide openings.

    Forces in a large building have 180 vision and weapons coverage if in an exposed area. The building wall on the side the forces are located defines the base line of the 180 arc. ONE figure in a corner of a large building allows their unit 270 coverage, again with the walls defining the edges. Troops in the centre are out of LOS to forces outside that floor of that large building. LOS can be traced from outside the large building where it is not interrupted by the center.

    LINE OF FIRE (LOF) page 16

    Forces inside a building (either size) who can see or be seen as in LOS above can be attacked. What level of cover the building provides is up to the scenario designer.

    OVERWATCH page 21

    Units in the center of a large building can be placed on overwatch only against other units on that floor of that building. Units in the exposed area of a large building may be placed on overwatch with the same coverage as the LOS rules above. Units in buildings are on 360 overwatch.

    MOVEMENT page 22

    new section

    MOVEMENT INTO, OUT OF OR INSIDE BUILDINGS

    You can freely MOVE UP OR DOWN ONE LEVEL per turn at no movement cost IF YOU ARE ALREADY IN ANY BUILDING. Only a single level and only if you start in the building.

    If you start a turn inside a building you can place the unit anywhere on that floor or an adjacent one.

    If you start a turn inside a large building you can move the unit anywhere within 6″ and up to one level higher or lower.

    Entering a building is covered under house clearing and the rules if the scenario requires it. This should only be scenarios where an insurgent force or forces has the time and inclination to booby trap most structures, think Fallujah, Stalingrad, Berlin, etc.. Local quickly evolving rebels would need time and access to equipment (supplies) to prepare a town or city. Regular forces can and will do so but again only if the built up area is abandoned and they have the time and supplies. For most scenarios you should treat all buildings as accessible and open.

    Units exiting any building exit on the ground floor. If the scenario calls for it sewers may be accessed from any subterranean level. Also any building connecting another allows movement between them on any floor levels (including roofs) they share.

    A regular unit may spend an entire turn’s movement to climb one storey of building, wall or cliff face.

    RAPID MOVEMENT page 22

    May only occur in large buildings. Still only one floor, up or down, can be traversed between.

    OUT OF CONTACT MOVEMENT page 22

    May only occur in the center of large buildings. Each level climbed or descended counts as 2″ of movement.

    FIRE COMBAT: COVER DICE page 24

    Units in buildings are treated just like in the LOS rules above. If they cannot be seen they cannot be attacked. If they cannot see they cannot attack.

    OPTIMUM RANGE page 26

    Units can attack up or down ONE level and only if inside the same building (or connected ones on the same level). Units in buildings are always at optimum range. Units is a large building use the regular rules except if at different levels add 2″ to range.

    CLOSE ASSAULTS page 33

    Close assaults in large buildings must be in a straight line and cannot cross a center but can to to or from a center.

    Please let me know if I missed possible applications of rules for buildings or if you don’t agree with my interpretations. If you disagree be prepared to defend based on the rules please. If you disagree please show where in the rules I made a mistake.

     

    #154450
    maggico
    Participant

    I see good ideas to expand the system about buildings, especially about very large buildings. With these rules, anyone can make a scenario set only in a great building. I think about SWAT assault, hostage rescue (who said the Iranian amabassade in London 1980?), etc.

    Sadly it’s not the moment for a game for me. The lock down is going to be a long story.

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