Home Forums WWII Artillery crew separated from main weapon

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  • #5414
    quidveritas
    Participant

    Here’s a tougher question for you guys.

    In a WWII wargaming world, artillery crews are sometimes separated from the weapon they operate.  There are many reasons for this and not what I want to discuss.

    What should these guys be doing after they are FORCED to abandon their main weapon?

    Perhaps that’s too blunt and the answer is “it depends”.  OK so it depends.  Give me some options that a reasonable crew might follow in that situation.

    Personally I don’t think these guys magically transform into an infantry squad.  Maybe I’m wrong.  If so, educate me.

    mjc

    #5419
    kyoteblue
    Participant

    They are trained to operate the Gun…if they can’t move the gun they would try to disable it and retreat.

    #5435
    dave
    Participant

    For gaming purposes I’d remove the crew. Reorganisation. They’re valuable assets.

    #5446
    willz
    Participant

    Are you on about Artillery gun crews, anti-tank gun crews or battalion gun crews.

    Different training , skills and missions.  Battalion gun crews were primary infantry trained and then specialized in battalion guns.

    Artillery as it says on the tin with infantry training, anti-tank crews probably a mixture of both as a generalization.

    I would of thought using gun crews to fight other than their dedicated mission work well for a skirmish game (Bolt Action) but maybe not so well for the larger style games (Command decision).

    Speaking for Rapid Fire games generally my artillery/ battalion / anti-Tank crews do not get close enough to the shooting to use their small arms, if attacked they can defend themselves with small arms, however they would not be able to fire their main gun or if they had fired their main gun they would not be able to fire small arms that turn.  As for re-deployment that would have to be written into the mission brief before the start of the game.

    The question is what are the mission priorities, fire big gun or shot small rifle.

    I am with you I would have thought they don’t magically transform into an infantry squad unless you are playing a Kelly hero’s style skirmish game.  Using these crews any other way is just being an over active war-gamer falling into the habit well are all guilty of at some time or other, I want to shoot so I am going to shoot.

    #5457

    As far as I’m aware crews either tried to get their gun out or destroy it.  They would not become infantry squads except in the most rudimentary self defence way. These guys are trained technicians. It is acceptable for them to preserve themselves for a higher purpose = they would be ‘evacuated’ if possible.

    This kind of question is the reason I stay away from ‘skirmish’ games.

    My whoring and daubing:
    http://olicanalad.blogspot.co.uk/

    #5479
    Ivan Sorensen
    Participant

    Yeah, I’d be very hesitant about them being employed as riflemen. It’s like sending all your halftracks forward to get blown up for a chance to fire their machine gun once: Might make sense in the game but now your company is walking home.

    In a smaller game, if they are not in a position where they can safely retreat, they might hunker down and fire defensively with small arms. As soon as they get a chance, they’d be skedaddling though. Exceptions for last stands and being surrounded of course 🙂

    Nordic Weasel Games
    https://www.wargamevault.com/browse/pub/5701/Nordic-Weasel-Games?src=browse5701

    #5535
    quidveritas
    Participant

    Thanks again all.

    To my mind the crew has essentially two mutually exclusive options.  Either re-crew the gun or retire.

    #5695
    John D Salt
    Participant

    In the Royal Artillery, remember that the guns are the colours, and a gunners’ rallying point is the nearest gun that will fire.  The gunners may be separated from the guns in order to take cover in shelter trenches under bombardment, but one the order is given to take post, they will stick to their guns, and spike them rather than permit their capture. However, infantry combat is not what they draw their pay for, and until quite late in the war RA batteries were not even scaled for a full issue of small arms for self defence.

    The Gunners are of course “First among the ladies, an’ amazin’ first in war”, but in the case of anti-tank guns the detachments might not be artillerymen, they might be infantrymen. In this case they will, of course, be capable of doing the infantry stuff if necessary. At Medenine, when his gun was knocked out (after bagging 14 panzers at close range, for which he would be awarded a DCM) Sergeant Crangles took over his detachment’s Bren, and ordered them to fix bayonets. He later ordered them to surrender, as the platoon in their locality had been completely overrun.

    All the best,

    John.

    #5973
    Northern Monkey
    Participant

    Didn’t each (British) Infantry Battalion contain an Anti Tank Platoon of 6 6lber’s(on paper at least), these were infantry first and foremost, just trained to operate the guns, once out of action they would fall back to their primary role of infantry

    My attempt at a Blog: http://ablogofwar.blogspot.co.uk/

    #6163
    John D Salt
    Participant

    Didn’t each (British) Infantry Battalion contain an Anti Tank Platoon of 6 6lber’s

    No. No, they didn’t. 6-prs, 6-pdrs or 6-pounders, certainly, but a 6lber isn’t a thing, with or without a grocer’s apostrophe.

    All the best,

    John.

    #6186
    Allen Curtis
    Participant

    Incoming!

    Allen

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 11 months ago by Allen Curtis.
    #6192
    kyoteblue
    Participant

    Nice to see you Allen.

    #6256
    Allen Curtis
    Participant

    Hola, KB!

    Allen

    #6264
    kyoteblue
    Participant

    Missed talking with You Allen.

    #6282
    Northern Monkey
    Participant

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Northern Monkey wrote:</div>
    Didn’t each (British) Infantry Battalion contain an Anti Tank Platoon of 6 6lber’s

    No. No, they didn’t. 6-prs, 6-pdrs or 6-pounders, certainly, but a 6lber isn’t a thing, with or without a grocer’s apostrophe. All the best, John.

     

    Lol, i thought it looked wrong , but i was tired and couldnt be bothered checking

    My attempt at a Blog: http://ablogofwar.blogspot.co.uk/

    #6355
    grizzlymc
    Participant

    Dammit, these bounders will be having armored recon next!

    #6636
    Patrice
    Participant

    I suppose you are talking about a skirmish game, where you could still have some use for artillery crews without their big guns.

    As others have said, you can’t expect them to magically become an infantry crew – the men are not really trained for it (they have basic infantry training only), and the officers and NCOs are not used to receive infantry missions.

    From my modest military knowledge (compulsory service in the French artillery 1979-80) I think that if crews were forced to abandon the battery they would become totally disorganised (and probably with casualties) and the best they could do would be to regroup somewhere and defend themselves with their rifles if they can – you could not expect them to do anything else.

    http://www.argad-bzh.fr/argad/en.html
    https://www.anargader.net/

    #6641
    General Slade
    Participant

    Unlike the French, the British artillery would of course, if forced to abandon their guns, regroup somewhere and make tea . . .

    http://movieclips.com/H4vVb-a-bridge-too-far-movie-a-cup-of-tea-cant-hurt/

    Not the RA but you get what I mean.

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 11 months ago by General Slade.
    #6645
    Patrice
    Participant

    Unlike the French, the British artillery would of course, if forced to abandon their guns, regroup somewhere and make tea

    Well, replace tea with “pinard” (red wine) and – with a good leadership – we could probably counter-attack and retake the battery!

    http://www.argad-bzh.fr/argad/en.html
    https://www.anargader.net/

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