12/08/2014 at 13:39 #4124BanditParticipant13/08/2014 at 22:54 #4340CerdicParticipant
You can fit the rules onto the back of an envelope?14/08/2014 at 15:32 #4453
When the attendant pub fare and refreshments are used to describe the type of game it is, I think that says it all…15/08/2014 at 03:47 #4512
It suggests ‘Fast Play’ at the expense of historical feel to me. Black Powder has been disparaged as a beer and pretzels game. A kind interpretation might mean it is quick and easy to play, but I think they term suggested a lack of historical relevance or grounding.15/08/2014 at 05:19 #4521
Well, there are those who link the consumption of alcohol with the simplicity of the rules and the ease of play for obvious reasons. Calling rules “Beer & Pretzel” certainly suggest an emphasis on the game rather than historical relevance or grounding. On game night, I know a few drinks sees the ‘historical grounding’ of any play delivered to the blurry land of buzz long before the game portion of the night goes in that direction.15/08/2014 at 09:02 #4527Not Connard SageParticipant
Well that didn’t take long…
Anyway. Easy to learn, and play. DBA almost fits that criteria 😉
Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.27/08/2014 at 22:19 #6051grizzlymcParticipant
The rules ARE the quick reference sheet. It is common, but by no means mandatory that any conflict, real or imagined, between simulation and game, be resolved in favour of game.
Good example of an exception to rule 2 is seastrike:probable one of the most playable games ever and yet, a superb simulation of 1970s naval combat.27/08/2014 at 22:47 #6057
<span style=”color: #585858;”>”The rules ARE the quick reference sheet. It is common, but by no means mandatory that any conflict, real or imagined, between simulation and game, be resolved in favour of game.”</span>
<span style=”color: #585858;”>”Good example of an exception to rule 2 is seastrike:probable one of the most playable games ever and yet, a superb simulation of 1970s naval combat.”</span>
Yes, true. I enjoy a number of rules sets that have been called ‘Beer & Pretzel’ games and the best I can figure is that it refers to games that are simple and not too concerned with history. Sort of “The 300” and “Empire” Spartans graphic novel movies compared to a effort like Turner’s “Gettysburg” or Burns Documentary on the Civil War. For one history is simply an excuse for the story the author wants to tell rather than an attempt to meaningfully portray actual history as narrative. All four are enjoyable entertainment for different reasons.27/08/2014 at 22:51 #6061
Yes – one of our regulars, who is a real gent, and so whilst very knowledgeable about WW2, doesn’t disparage ‘beer and pretzels’ games but just rolls up his sleeves and joins in, said at a recent ‘Bolt Action’ game – ‘I think of it as simulating the movie of the battle, not the battle itself’ – I think that’s neat!28/08/2014 at 06:23 #6095Piyan GlupakParticipant
Must admit that I prefer games that are easy to learn and easy to play, so long as the results have some kind of credibility. If I can find a new victim to try wargaming, it means that they have a sporting chance to have some success, and hence probably enjoy their early experiences. For instance, one of the people that I played with out here wasn’t really a wargamer, but because he played computer games, knew not to do things like push forward units without supporting them, so could do well with wargames with simple rules.
I remember, quite a few years ago, one of the people that I played DBR with (when DBR was first edition) tried a very well-respected, detailed set of Renaissance rules with some other members of the local club. Whereas we used to get 2 or 3 small DBA games in per night, they didn’t even get into combat.28/08/2014 at 15:59 #6135Marshal SinCereParticipant
We don’t really eat pretzels where I’m from. A “cider & Pasties” game might be more in line.
I don’t have anything to add except to say Hi Bandit, and that it’s great to see so many folks that I know on this new forum.
James (Formerly TelesticWarrior, now trying out the name of Marshal SinCere).28/08/2014 at 23:36 #6221
Great to have you onboard! Cider Pasties
Ralph29/08/2014 at 00:18 #6246
“Yes – one of our regulars, who is a real gent, and so whilst very knowledgeable about WW2, doesn’t disparage ‘beer and pretzels’ games but just rolls up his sleeves and joins in, said at a recent ‘Bolt Action’ game – ‘I think of it as simulating the movie of the battle, not the battle itself’ – I think that’s neat!”
Yeah, it is neat. I don’t know why anyone would disparage a Beer & Pretzel game, or whatever is on the refreshment list. I think one issue with defining a design as a “Beer & Pretzels” game is what the designer had in mind and what gamers believe that the game does vis a vie military history. If his game was meant to be a full blown simulation and folks label it a Beer & Pretzel experience, that will be seen as disparaging. I know of a number of designers who have purposely designed a movie-type game so they would have no problems with that moniker. They’d be thrilled if their game were compared the the movie “300”.
However, the designers of Bolt Action don’t think of their creation that way from what I have read and seen. I could be wrong. I know for sure that the Flames of War creators would feel that is a disparaging judgment, even with hub-t0-hub tank battles. So either it is a bona fide type of game design with certain characteristics common to the type or simply a disparaging description of a game we see as simplistic and therefore don’t happen to like. I don’t agree with the latter, but we are a long way from establishing the former in the hobby.29/08/2014 at 10:54 #6299Marshal SinCereParticipant
But Cider counts as one of your 5 a day……
Whilst we’re on the subject of beverages during games, can I ask if anybody has ever had any problems with people drinking too much and then being overly rough with your delicate and carefully painted figures? That would annoy the hell out me.29/08/2014 at 17:33 #6356grizzlymcParticipant
I have never drunk too much in my life, I always pass out first.
Damaging other people’s toys,drunk or sober is an absolute no no!29/08/2014 at 19:42 #637730/08/2014 at 00:07 #6436
I have to say I’ve never drunk or experienced people drinking much whilst wargaming…too much driving involved in Oz I suspect – one crowd of very posh North Sydneysiders make a point of demolishing a bottle of vintage Grange during their games, but that’s a bottle between 4-5 of them…and fairly apt for Horse and Musket gaming somehow. My problem is, after 23 years in the navy, most of it ‘before the mast’ I can’t simply do ‘a’ drink – when I drink I do it properly until I have to retire for the night suitably ‘tired and confused’ – ex Senior Rates officially never actually get ‘drunk’ – that would suggest someone has blundered in giving them the Queen’s Commission!
That said I absolutely love a session with the players after a massive mega-game to swap our war stories – unfortunately, given the driving issue, it happens very rarely! I’m hoping that a few of us will book a hotel for the middle evening of our Waterloo Mega bicentennial game nest year though!30/08/2014 at 00:27 #6443French Wargame HolidaysParticipant
A non thinking about the rules much IMO, tough for periods like napoleonics I think except at skirmish level.
"walk the battlefield in the morning, wargame it in the afternoon"
https://www.lhoteldeherce.fr/2022frenchwargameholidays30/08/2014 at 18:11 #6496OldNickParticipant
To me “beer and Pretzel” are what brought me back to the table. I started out withMorschauser’s rules. Moved to Column, line and square. After that the super realistic super real its not a game its a simulation rules 🙂 I tried Empire and actually nodded off during a charge. That was not for me. So I went for simple rules but with a twist. “Loose files and American scramble” gave me a game simple game but reflected what my reading suggested a rev war battle felt like. The d points sre a simple but clever way to reflex troop training and morale. I could teach the game to new players and they picked it up and ran with it.
“the regular troops, who had the keen edge of sensibility rubbed off by strict discipline and hard service, saw the confusion with but little emotion.”
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