Home Forums WWII British and German Infantry in Normandy: Organization for WRG 1925-1950 rules

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  • #5702
    Whirlwind
    Participant

    I’m organizing some figures for some WW2 Normandy 1944 scenarios using WRG’s WW2 rules.  Grenadier and Rifle platoons seem quite straightforward: 3 sections of 2 x 4-man rifle bases and 1 x 2-man LMG base.  But what organization would you use for German Panzergrenadier and British Motor platoons?  And was there ever any army lists released for these rules giving an ‘official’ answer?

    https://hereticalgaming.blogspot.co.uk/

    #5738
    Allen Curtis
    Participant

    The 1973 edition had no army lists included, nor an accompanying army list volume.  The 1988 edition contained army lists, but I don’t have that edition.   An unofficial volume of army lists to cover both Newbury (Cambrai to Sinai) and WRG was published independently.

    For Normandy, you’re going to have to make some choices.  The British motor section was authorized only eight men, compared to the rifle section’s ten, and of the eight, one was the section’s driver who remained with the vehicle.  You can choose to portray it short-handed with a rifle base and a Bren base (5 WRG points each); this is similar but not as radical as what Flames of War does in chopping the motor section down to a single MG/Rifle team of four or five men.  Or you can portray it over-strength with two rifle bases and a Bren base for 5 points more (not that points need matter, except as a rough cut, but you’ll have to decide), the same as a rifle section.  This is what I do (using FoW basing) for FoW (screw ’em!) and IABSM, mainly because IABSM’s own lists (which assume an integral LMG per section) do not differentiate in strength between motor and rifle sections.  I can always leave out one rifle base, if that seems more appropriate for the game, and you could too!

    The German panzergrenadier squad by this time had been reduced to ten men, but two were the halftrack crew (assuming a gepanzerte unit).  So the best way to portray the eight dismounts might be one rifle base and two MG-34/42 bases, totaling 15 points.  If you need to represent a depleted unit, I suppose one LMG need not be dismounted from the vehicle, and you could go with one rifle and one LMG base.  The motorized panzergrenadier squad was still twelve men, with one driver remaining with the vehicle, so the dismounts still work with one rifle and two LMG bases, or you could stretch it with one man over-strength to two rifle and two LMG bases.

    Don’t feel bad about rounding.  Keep in mind that the WRG bases don’t necessarily fit actual organization any better than other rules which use set “teams” or “bases”.  For example, in a British rifle squad, the Bren group should actually consume three men, including the assistant section leader, leaving only seven for the rifle group.  So we bend things just a little–and remember that full-strength units were often the exception rather than the rule.

    As always, the best breakdown of small unit organization is Gary Kennedy’s Bayonet Strength site:

    http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/

    Allen

    #5749
    NTM
    Participant

    I think Allen has it spot on for the 1973 edition. The 1988 revision used a single rifle element per section but varied the number of figures per base.   So armoured panzer grenadiers had 3-5 and motorised 4-6 but no effect on game play though.

    #5769
    Whirlwind
    Participant

    Thanks very much to both of you.

    https://hereticalgaming.blogspot.co.uk/

    #5839
    Truscott Trotter
    Participant

    They were my first set of WWII rules (after Charles grants)- ah the memories

    #5875
    Etranger
    Participant

    I’ve got the Army lists Allen mentioned somewhere in the storage shed. Let me know if you need the “semi-official” lists and I’ll dig them out at the weekend.

    #5889
    NTM
    Participant

    I have WWII Army Organisations by Ian Shaw somewhere which may be the one referred to. If I can find it will let you know any relevant information

    #5915
    Allen Curtis
    Participant

    Shaw’s volume wasn’t the one I had in mind, but thanks for reminding me: I have it around here somewhere, and haven’t run across it lately, so I need to go have a look.  It’s pretty good; it was written for Tabletop Games’ Combined Arms rules, but would certainly work with WRG.  I never referred to it as often as I did Bruce Rea-Taylor’s prolific volumes for “ultra-moderns” (for the TTG Challenger rules), so must have it stashed in an obscure place.

    This was the one of which I was thinking, in case the cover happens to look familiar and causes anyone else to go searching in dark corners too!

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cambrai-Newbury-Armour-Infantry-1925-1950/dp/B003V58NNM

    Allen

    #5925
    Gaz045
    Participant

    ‘Combined Arms’…..many an evening spent battling in North Africa for the ‘oasis’ or port…….happy memories!

    Still got the rules and all the Skytrex/H&R tanks etc too………

    "Even dry tree bark is not bitter to the hungry squirrel"

    #5936
    dave
    Participant

    Shaw’s volume wasn’t the one I had in mind, but thanks for reminding me: I have it around here somewhere, and haven’t run across it lately, so I need to go have a look. It’s pretty good; it was written for Tabletop Games’ Combined Arms rules, but would certainly work with WRG. I never referred to it as often as I did Bruce Rea-Taylor’s prolific volumes for “ultra-moderns” (for the TTG Challenger rules), so must have it stashed in an obscure place. This was the one of which I was thinking, in case the cover happens to look familiar and causes anyone else to go searching in dark corners too! http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cambrai-Newbury-Armour-Infantry-1925-1950/dp/B003V58NNM Allen

     

    Got em just found em on my bookcase. Is there a particular page or pages you need copying?

    #6032
    grizzlymc
    Participant

    Search bayonetstrength, it was at bayonetstrength.com but it’s moved.  Online and free.

    #6034
    Allen Curtis
    Participant

    Ummmm… see my link above.  Or here:

    http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/

    Allen

    #6036
    NTM
    Participant

    Also a back up version at

    http://Www.bayonetstrength.me.uk

     

    #6042
    Allen Curtis
    Participant

    I think that one may actually be more current in certain details.

    Allen

    #6052
    grizzlymc
    Participant

    My apogees Mr Curtis, I only saw grey spaces 😉

     

    Good to see you around!

    • This reply was modified 7 years, 3 months ago by grizzlymc.
    #6072
    Allen Curtis
    Participant

    Hola!

    Allen

    #6556
    Whirlwind
    Participant

    @Dave,

     

    Got em just found em on my bookcase. Is there a particular page or pages you need copying?

    I’d be interested in how they tackle the German and British platoons I mentioned in the OP.

     

     

     

    https://hereticalgaming.blogspot.co.uk/

    #6774
    dave
    Participant

    Just got back off holiday. For Normandy, the only British list is the Guards Armoured Division and infantry support is only on the optional lists. These lists aren’t really designed for platoon level. In fact in Appendix II p47 it says to count each group as 5 men but they will be publishing more detailed platoon level lists in the future. For the Germans there’s a Panzer Division or Panzergrenadier Division list. So there’s no dedicated British or German Infantry Division lists. No wonder I’ve never used them despite having used both the rulesets they were designed for.

    As Allen and NTM  have posted, you’d be a lot better off using Gary Kennedy’s ace ‘bayonetstrength’ site.

     

    #6780
    dave
    Participant

    Sorry bout that last post it was the armoured infantry you were after doh holiday lag!

    Right the British motorized infantry platoon  has an M3 halftrack with Command group, LMG, Piat and 2inch mortar, and

    3 M3 halftracks each with a Rifle Group and LMG.

    German Armoured Infantry Platoon

    Plt HQ Sdkfz 251/1 with Com Grp, LMG, Panzerschreck; 2 Sdkfz 251/1 each with  Rifle Grp., LMG; 1 Sdkfz 251/17.

    I’d still go with bayonetstrength. Hope this helps, dave

    #6792
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    Tempest

     

    If you’d like, I could scan the German and British lists, such as they are, from the 1988 set. The points values given are of course for that edition, not the earlier (and better IMHO) one. Also be aware that they are very much designed for use with the rules rather than being an accurate reflection of real life TO&E, and are somewhat generic.

     

    Let me have an email address and I’ll forward them as .pdf  files.

    "I'm not signing that"

    #7187
    Whirlwind
    Participant

    That’s very kind Not Connard Sage, thank you.  I use the earlier edition of the rules since I’d played them when I was starting out and then found they were free on WRG’s website.

    I’m at j w h 0 7 1 4 @ y a h o o . c o. u k (without the spaces, obvs)

    At the moment, I’m going with Allen Curtis’ suggestion, but with one of the British rifle sections being slightly overstrength and two being slightly understrength.

    Thanks again to all.

    https://hereticalgaming.blogspot.co.uk/

    #7340
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    That’s very kind Not Connard Sage, thank you. I use the earlier edition of the rules since I’d played them when I was starting out and then found they were free on WRG’s website. I’m at j w h 0 7 1 4 @ y a h o o . c o. u k (without the spaces, obvs)

     

    I’ve just sent them. Check your inbox…and spam folder.

    "I'm not signing that"

    #7424
    Whirlwind
    Participant

    Thanks very much Not Connard Sage.  The German one arrived, but not the one for the Brits.

    https://hereticalgaming.blogspot.co.uk/

    #7437
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    Thanks very much Not Connard Sage. The German one arrived, but not the one for the Brits.

     

    That’s odd.

     

    Never mind, I’ve sent them again. Let me know if they’ve arrived.

    "I'm not signing that"

    #7447
    Whirlwind
    Participant

    The British one has arrived, thank you very much.

    https://hereticalgaming.blogspot.co.uk/

    #7451
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    Second time lucky!

     

    Hope you find them of some use 🙂

    "I'm not signing that"

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