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This topic contains 14 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by Darkest Star Games Darkest Star Games 1 week, 4 days ago.

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  • #114505
    Ochoin
    Ochoin
    Participant

    The cause of the catastrophic collapse of Bronze Age civilisation in the Near East & the Aegean is a topic of debate amongst anyone interested in the period.

    Volcano, climate change, or Robert Drewe’s javelins have all been cited as factors not to mention the enigmatic Sea Peoples.

    I found this PDF which adds quite a few new ideas to the debate, not least being earthquakes. However, it’s main premise is epidemic disease helped cause System Failure and topple Mycenaean king & Hittite ruler alike.

    Read:

    “an account of diseases in the near east during the bronze age:”

    unsworks.unsw.edu.au/fapi/datastream/unsworks:12463/SOURCE02

    donald

    #114506
    Sane Max
    Sane Max
    Participant

    an interesting read.

    TBH I suspect the real answer is ‘we will probably never know’ but it’s a fun topic to discuss and wonder at, until someone invents a time machine and spoils it all.

    My vote is for the collapse to have been caused by the Sea People. Nothing that cool looking should go unrewarded. They had horns on their helmets! Actual Horns! Take that, Vikings wooses!

    Horned Helmets AND Chariots. I bet their chariots actually had scythes on as well, like we used to be told Boudicca’s did. I bet that’s true, as it would make them even more ace, if possible.

    #114507
    General Slade
    General Slade
    Participant

    There is an In Our Time that deals with the same subject that makes for an interesting listen (though from memory I think Melvin Bragg got a bit frustrated with his guests because not only did they lack a definite theory of what caused the Bronze Age collapse but also questioned whether it had happened in the first place): https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07fl5bh

    #114508
    Ochoin
    Ochoin
    Participant

    If you buy into some type of plague, then Sea Peoples fleeing the infection & invading the Mediterranean littoral is possible. If they took the disease with them, they may have been a double horror to the area. It’s interesting how some Near East urban sites were abandoned, untouched, by their inhabitants.

    However, it’s surely some combination of disasters over the 50 years of the collapse. Maybe even scythed chariots had a role? Or even a roll.

     

    donald

    #114509
    Sane Max
    Sane Max
    Participant

    If you buy into some type of plague, then Sea Peoples fleeing the infection & invading the Mediterranean littoral is possible. If they took the disease with them, they may have been a double horror to the area. It’s interesting how some Near East urban sites were abandoned, untouched, by their inhabitants.

    donald

    Maybe they fled in terror when they realised that the Sea People were in fact zombies? Scythed Chariot-riding Zombies with horned helmets and Laser Beams on their fricking noses.

    I think we have resolved this one.

    Next question – were ancient egyptian mummies wiped out by a race of skeleton-people?

    https://www.theonion.com/archaeological-dig-uncovers-ancient-race-of-skeleton-pe-1819565415

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 5 days ago by Sane Max Sane Max.
    #114511
    Thorsten Frank
    Thorsten Frank
    Participant

    That´s a fun topic to speculate over and that´s something I love to speculate. I too think we´ll never no for sure  what really happened.

    For me it seems like a combination of many small events that culminated in a total collapse. Maybe it started with a few bad harvests and/or crop failures leading to a questioning of the local religions and leadership. Combine that with a change of technology (iron) and craftman/artisan not being able to convert to the new technology fast enough. Add to that civil unrest and a loss of infrastructure and you´ve got an explosive mix.
    The fuse is set under those circumstances.
    The loss of infrastructure leads to a lesser hygiene (even the Sintashta cultural horizion and the Mohenjo Daro/Harappa horizon seemed to have an understanding of sanitation as it seems), this led to diseases and even more unrest. Let then happen some natural disasters like an earthquake and/or an volcanic eruption and it´s over.
    And then local warlords see their chance. And people over the sea, peacefully trading for centuries and now with lesser income, turn to piracy….

    My 5cent to this topic (and I may be completely wrong).

    "In strange grammar this one writes" - Master Yoda

    #114530
    Thaddeus Blanchette
    Thaddeus Blanchette
    Participant

    I agree with Thorsten. Dark ages are caused by many events, leading to systemic collapse. The events feed off one another until the social structure can no longer adjust to them. It’s why Marx quipped “socialism or barbary”.

    We get slapped around, but we have a good time!

    #114534
    Ochoin
    Ochoin
    Participant

    Maybe they fled in terror when they realised that the Sea People were in fact zombies?

     

    Incredibly, the Zombie interpretation of history is often ignored by serious historians.

     

    donald

    #114536
    Thorsten Frank
    Thorsten Frank
    Participant

    Maybe they fled in terror when they realised that the Sea People were in fact zombies?

    Incredibly, the Zombie interpretation of history is often ignored by serious historians. donald[/q[quote quote=114530]I agree with Thorsten. Dark ages are caused by many events, leading to systemic collapse. The events feed off one another until the social structure can no longer adjust to them. It’s why Marx quipped “socialism or barbary”.

    Apllied systems theory.

    But I like the zombie hypothesis. Or reading another book: the Pelesets were actually giants. And maybe the Tjeker were the zombies. But I wonder who the Weshesh were…. 😀 😉

    "In strange grammar this one writes" - Master Yoda

    #114538
    Ochoin
    Ochoin
    Participant

    . But I wonder who the Weshesh were…. 😀 😉

     

    Originally from Warwickshire but their spokesman had an awful speech impediment.

     

    donald

    #114556
    Ochoin
    Ochoin
    Participant

    I did some reading on System Collapse.

    As most of you know, the various Bronze Age civilisations we are discussing were highly organised with a powerful bureaucracy. The “palace system” seems to have controlled nearly every aspect of community life. There is copious evidence for this, notably in the archives from the palace at Pylos. These Linear B tablets from Nestor’s Palace,  are mostly detailed lists of goods and people, trade goods & food rations. Interestingly, the tablets, overwhelmingly from the time just prior to the destruction of the palace, seem to hint at preparation for resisting an imminent  attack.

    System Collapse refers to any rigid culture that when you topple one aspect, the society destructs like a line of dominoes pushing each other over.

    The Catastrophe happens over a period of about 50 years but clearly, if you “take out” a palace, whether through war, earthquake or plague, he society is unable to function as previously & reverts to simple and even primitive forms.

    It should be remembered that all the Near Eastern & Aegean civilisations were interlinked & fatal damage to one or two also has a knock on effect.

    Interestingly, Egypt, which survives whatever the catastrophe(s) were is drastically weakened and arguably never really recovers her pre-eminent position in world affairs. I still like the idea of plague being one of the Bronze Age Horseman of the Apocalypse. I hope other historians pick it up & lok for evidence.

     

    donald

     

    #114563
    Geof Downton
    Geof Downton
    Participant

    I still like the idea of plague being one of the Bronze Age Horseman of the Apocalypse. I hope other historians pick it up & lok for evidence.

    Spookily and coincidentally I found this this morning:

    If the reviews are anything to go on I’m not sure it’s worth the investment…

    One who puts on his armour should not boast like one who takes it off.
    Ahab, King of Israel; 1 Kings 20:11

    #114564
    Thorsten Frank
    Thorsten Frank
    Participant

    . But I wonder who the Weshesh were…. 😀 😉

    Originally from Warwickshire but their spokesman had an awful speech impediment. donald

    Hm, Whitnash sounds similar. And considering the people coming from this region like Shakespeare or … Crowley.

    “I did some reading on System Collapse.”

    The books from Jared Diamond were real eye openers for me. Ever tried Spengler´s “Decline of the West”?

    “Interestingly, Egypt, which survives whatever the catastrophe(s) were is drastically weakened and arguably never really recovers her pre-eminent position in world affairs.”

    This is the true question of the whole topic. I´m astonished that Egypt did survive that at all considering all facts known to date. That points to a remarkably stable and flexible type of organisation and buerocracy which couldn´t be explained simply by stratification.

    “I still like the idea of plague being one of the Bronze Age Horseman of the Apocalypse. I hope other historians pick it up & lok for evidence.”

    I´m pretty sure that this was, at least, one point that led to the fall. I will definetly give the book Geof Downton linked here a try.

    "In strange grammar this one writes" - Master Yoda

    #114567

    Geof’s last comment made me look around.

    The author’s degrees are in East Asian Studies and English.  The profile under another of his books (on pornography) describes him as a “recreational writer and amateur thinker”.

    Hmm.  I think I’ll give this one a pass. Available for  $2.99 on Kindle though, so might be worth that, for curiosity value.

    #114569
    Darkest Star Games
    Darkest Star Games
    Participant

    Ever tried Spengler´s “Decline of the West”?

      Funnily enough, went to look for this one and ended up on “The Decline Of Western Civilization”, which is a documentary on Punk music that I had forgotten about!  The tie-in isn’t just the closeness of names, but Darby Crash of The Germs (which really freaks me out since my name is Darby too) does a reading from Spengler’s “Der Untergang des Abendlandes”.

    So if not zombies, maybe angry punks took down the governments that had so long held them down.  Maybe the stuck it to The Man… 

    "I saw this in a cartoon once, but I'm pretty sure I can do it..."

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