Home Forums Fantasy Burning Sands burning sands shooting

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  • #131938
    Devon StartDevon Start
    Participant

    Ive been really having a hard time with shooting in burning sands(and crom for that matter)

    if you have a bow you get free shots if the other guy hasnt saved his dice.  so an enemy horde all bow men will be unstopable. just waste the other guys vitality and then shoot them up, especially if you have a lot of figs on your side.  Or at least it becomes a draw.
    Like so. Gonan has vitality 6 there are 6 archers facing him. If he does anything he is going to be short dice. lets say he uses three dice to attack a couple archers. He kills two. That is 4 hits coming in he cant avoid. Next turn he has 2 vitality.  unless he gets super lucky he isnt getting away here.

    Or he saves his dice to dodge, but cant move or fight..stalemate.. while this is probably very realistic, its not much fun

    that doesnt seem right

    what is the issue? its taken me a long time to sort this out. the issue is there is no “to hit” Shooting goes right to damage. the only way, currently(at least to my understanding) to avoid an arrow or for an arrow to miss is if the target has left dice behind and gets lucky. they have to actively avoid the attack, there is no way for it to miss on its own.

    solution.. add a simple roll to hit. There is a target number based on range and cover.. you have to beat that roll to even hit. THEN they can try to use the dodge or the armor roll to avoid the damage.

    without this bows are weird and they dont really work right. I dont like to use them in my games and they are a bit too easy for players to game if they are allowed. bows are the ONLY part of these rules i think are screwed up too.

    #131943
    Angel BarracksAngel Barracks
    Moderator

    If he does anything he is going to be short dice. lets say he uses three dice to attack a couple archers. He kills two. That is 4 hits coming in he cant avoid. Next turn he has 2 vitality. unless he gets super lucky he isnt getting away here.

    If he has 6 available vitality and used 3 to attack, he has 3 left to dodge.
    If he killed 2 then only 4 get to attack and he may well dodge 3 of them from his 3 rolls.
    Thus he gets 1 hit he can’t avoid.
    This is likely to reduce his vitality to 5.

    Next turn he has 5 vitality and there are only 4 of them?

     

    The rationale was that a still target will be hit each time by a trained attacker, be that melee or missile.
    There is no to hit roll, both are opposed rolls.
    There is an argument to say that anyone standing still whilst 6 archers shoot him deserves to be peppered.
    I also kind of wanted archers to be less common in regular scenarios.
    For full on army battles then yes, totally it could be troublesome.

    However I see your point.
    If the rules niggle or otherwise vex you then do change them, but only if you report back how it went!

    😉

    Praise be to Apis!

    #131973
    Wouter WolputWouter Wolput
    Participant

    In the games I play with my son, we usually limit the number of bows to three, unless it’s a larger engagement with the hero getting some help. Another thing to consider is the use of terrain, you can’t shoot what you can’t see and we have learned to approach carefully when there are opponents with bows on the field.

    I think both bows and combat are abstracted, something not uncommon in both miniature games and RPGs alike, but given the flexibility and simplicity of the rules it kind of works. While not perfect, the limited amount of rolls make gameplay really fast and excellent to play with children.

    Burning Sands isn’t a game to play competitive in my opinion, but rather a toolbox to create great stories with (not unlike roleplaying games).

    #131974
    Devon StartDevon Start
    Participant

    i didnt see them as standing still, that sort of makes sense. I have also only played a few times, my frustration with shooting made me stop.. its that much of an issue for me, ive come back to it because i like the rest of the rules

    i suppose i see it as all happening at once, so while gonan is chopping up guys 1-3 guys 4-6 are shooting at him, guys 1-3 are potentially spoiling the aim.  So that even if you are out of vitality, you werent standing still during the turn.

    dont feel bad, ive had the same issues with Crom! which this is based on, the shooting just doenst quite work. I suppose its not that big a deal conan didnt like to use bows personally so archery isnt that much of a thing.

    I dont know if i would see shooting as an opposed roll, that feels more like a skill check rather than a struggle between two peoples skills

    #131976
    MikeMike
    Keymaster

    What sort of chance to hit would feel right to you?

    Say 5+ ?
    Then add 1 if the target is moving?
    Then add 1 if the target is concealed some how?

    For a normal peasant type that would add up to needing 7+ which would be impossible with a prowess of 1.
    Which seems right for an unskilled person.

    But that would give someone with a prowess of 2 (a typical warrior) a fair chance?

    #131977
    Devon StartDevon Start
    Participant

    In the games I play with my son, we usually limit the number of bows to three, unless it’s a larger engagement with the hero getting some help. Another thing to consider is the use of terrain, you can’t shoot what you can’t see and we have learned to approach carefully when there are opponents with bows on the field. I think both bows and combat are abstracted, something not uncommon in both miniature games and RPGs alike, but given the flexibility and simplicity of the rules it kind of works. While not perfect, the limited amount of rolls make gameplay really fast and excellent to play with children. Burning Sands isn’t a game to play competitive in my opinion, but rather a toolbox to create great stories with (not unlike roleplaying games).

    terrain would make a difference, but there isnt much to hide behind in a big open temple complex for instance. plus cover doesnt make a lick of difference. Hide behind that shelf or dias, it wont effect shooting. its the same if you are behind the dias or standing out in the open. no die to dodge you get hit.

    and yeah its totally great for co op games and story telling, this is waht makes it so appealing to me.. but you know as well as i do it just takes that one person to start min maxing to ruin it. Once someone finds out that a bow is an almost automatic hit, story telling goes out the window.   the evil big bad just spend his dice summoning a monster, well ill just blast him with an arrow, range doesnt matter nor does cover(as long as i can see him) so every turn ill just have two or three low lever jobbers keep his jobbers busy and shoot his wizard with my bow armed hero and never move.. i dunno its a place where jackassery could arise and i like to lock down the jack assery early lol

    how old is your son? thats cool. My dad is a wargamer from way back and we used to play games together all the time growing up. Mostly Sword and the Flame.

    #131979
    Wouter WolputWouter Wolput
    Participant

    My eldest is almost 10 and really getting into board and miniature games since I started playing Burning Sands with him almost a year ago.

    The terrain I use are mostly big rocks and pillars, so plenty of scenery to hide behind and not be seen. I also think you and I play the game in a very different way; the way we do it, it’s more like an RPG with me handling the bad guys as a GM and my son usually playing the hero. Sometimes his brother (8) joins in with another hero or he gets a few lackeys, but either way the number of bows is limited. If there’s a hero with a bow (my second eldest usually likes to play an alchemist, which is basically someone who likes to throw grenades), I try to engage him in close combat as soon as possible so my big bad evil wizard gets the opportunity to launch his monologue and summon something from the nether realms.

    Mike’s suggestions sound like a good solution. What me and my son also do is use stealth when he tries to get close. We added a ‘duck’ rule as well, which means he can’t be seen when behind a piece of terrain but he only gets to move half during his next activation (as getting up from being prone or because he’s checking if it’s safe by peeking around the cover being going on the move again.

    At one time I asked Mike to make up a rule for nets, because some of my slavers are equipped with these. These combined with bows make a powerful combination and I’ve made it a point not to shoot at the hero anymore when he’s caught in a net. After all, the slavers want the hero alive and in good condition so they can sell him on.

    #131991
    Angel BarracksAngel Barracks
    Moderator

    terrain would make a difference, but there isnt much to hide behind in a big open temple complex for instance. plus cover doesnt make a lick of difference. Hide behind that shelf or dias, it wont effect shooting. its the same if you are behind the dias or standing out in the open. no die to dodge you get hit

    In this instance I would stay hidden until I have the initiative, maybe use the Usurping rule. That way you get to rush them before they can fire at you.

    #143398
    losethekinglosetheking
    Participant

    you could try a hit check if the d6 is 1-3 miss 4-6 hit then roll for dmg

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