Home Forums Renaissance Cavalier uniforms

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  • #99363

    As well as using existing figures for my Royalist ECW army (see :  https://www.thewargameswebsite.com/forums/topic/building-an-ecw-royalist-army/ )

    I’ve ordered some figures specifically for this army from Tumbling Dice: 2 P&S regiments & 2 Cavalier units. I know the ECW infantry often had on the same colour coat & sometimes matching pants but what about the cavalry?

    Did being a “cavalier” mean you were a gentlemen & could eschew a uniform & wear what you pleased?

     

    donald

     

    #99366
    Hwiccee
    Participant

    The cavalry all wore buff coats for protection. So unless they also had metal armour they would all be uniformly buff coloured, although that colour could vary a bit.

    #99371
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    Wot Hwiccee said. They also wore knee boots and gauntlet gloves so coats and breeches weren’t exactly highly visible.

    Try to get away from the cliches of lobster tailed ‘Ironsides’ and floppy hatted ‘Cavaliers’. Both sides would have a cuirass and pot helmet if they could. Wouldn’t you? 🙂

    Red sashes for the Royalists, orange tawny for the Parliamentarians.

    I couldn’t possibly comment on the colour of their pants, one shudders to think. I would bet that many went commando though. 😀

     

     

     

    "I go online sometimes, but everyone's spelling is really bad. It's... depressing."

    #99394

    Thank you CS for your …kind…post.

    I was thinking that sleeveless buff coats were sometimes worn. In this case, rather than looking like pseudo-tough bike riders with sleeveless shirts, cavaliers (& other ECW cavalry) had their own coats thus revealed.

     

    These, I think, may reveal a plethora of colours.

     

    donald

    #99398
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    Thank you CS for your …kind…post. I was thinking that sleeveless buff coats were sometimes worn. In this case, rather than looking like pseudo-tough bike riders with sleeveless shirts, cavaliers (& other ECW cavalry) had their own coats thus revealed. These, I think, may reveal a plethora of colours. donald

    Thank you for your…minimally snarky…reply. A buff would turn a sword cut, but not a thrust. If I were wearing one I’d like it to cover the sticky out bits of my anatomy, such as my arms. Many contemporary portraits show sleeved buff coats, but of course only the rich and famous had their likenesses daubed for posterity.

    An expert’s opinion https://www.vam.ac.uk/blog/projects/in-the-buff I sincerely hope that you find it more useful than my utterances.

    "I go online sometimes, but everyone's spelling is really bad. It's... depressing."

    #99418
    Radar
    Participant

    There were a number of different styles of buff coat: full sleeve, short sleeve, and a very short sleeve (almost gilet like). I’m sure the cost of each style dictated what was issued.

    Lobster pots were preferred, or a ‘secret’ worn under a brimmed hat.

    As for sashes… the royalist red, and parliament orange weren’t standard. Essex’s army wore orange, the NMA wore red at some points, green sashes also come into the equation but I can’t quite remember where.

    There is a rather ornate red officer’s sash in the V&A which has silver woven into it.

    See http://www.keepyourpowderdry.co.uk/2018/06/what-colours-to-use.html?m=1

    As for the term ‘cavalier’ it was brought back from the continent by those young men who had fought in the 30YW.

    • This reply was modified 2 years, 9 months ago by Radar.
    #99433

    Thank you for useful replies. CS’ link was worth it for the word “haptic” alone, which now enters my vocabulary.

     

    donald

    #99560
    Etranger
    Participant

    Thank you CS for your …kind…post. I was thinking that sleeveless buff coats were sometimes worn. In this case, rather than looking like pseudo-tough bike riders with sleeveless shirts, cavaliers (& other ECW cavalry) had their own coats thus revealed. These, I think, may reveal a plethora of colours. donald

    Sleeveless buff coats (and striped rugby jerseys!) were largely an affectation of the 1960’s  rediscovery of the period. Most were long sleeved. That said, I have seen a contemporary (c1650) painting from the continent of TYW fights showing sleeveless buff coats. They would have been in the minority though, there was one out of the dozen or so buff coated troopers in the picture.

    Practically the only way of telling the difference between the cavalry of the two sides was the colour of the sash. Tom Fairfax memorably escaped from the Royalists at Marston Moor by removing his sash & riding through the enemy cavalry unrecognised.

    Sahes were of various colours: Tawny (orange) – Essex, Blue – the Scots (& possibly Fairfax), Yellow – Waller (who didn’t get on with Essex) & Red – Charles/Rupert, the NMA may have adapted this later. Some (Waller) are speculative, and other colours may well have turned up from time to time. http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=446178

    Pete Berry’s Baccus site has some general comments on infantry coat colours https://www.baccus6mm.com/_paintingguides/ECW_Coats.pdf

     I had rather have a plain, russet-coated Captain, that knows what he fights for, and loves what he knows, than that you call a Gentleman and is nothing else.

    • This reply was modified 2 years, 9 months ago by Etranger.
    • This reply was modified 2 years, 9 months ago by Etranger.
    • This reply was modified 2 years, 9 months ago by Etranger.
    #99566

    I was also looking for researched material on the colour of gun carriages for the Royalists & I found, on Another Forum, an animated discussion that involved the esteemed CS, who offered some solid information. So, an un-snarky thanks for this also.

     

    donald

    #99582
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    I don’t remember that one 🙂

    "I go online sometimes, but everyone's spelling is really bad. It's... depressing."

    #99698
    Radar
    Participant

    Visited Dunham Massey today, interestingly the portraits of Col Sir George Booth (later Lord Delamere), and Henry Grey, first Earl of Stamford are both wearing sleeveless buff coats.

    #99711
    Etranger
    Participant

    I don’t remember that one 🙂

    I do!

    #99720

    I don’t remember that one 🙂

     

    Lucky if you can find anything in that place anymore.

     

    donald

    #99721

    Visited Dunham Massey today, interestingly the portraits of Col Sir George Booth (later Lord Delamere), and Henry Grey, first Earl of Stamford are both wearing sleeveless buff coats.

    There you go! (& thanks to Yourpaceormine).  I think it’s in the perhaps dubious Haythornthwaite’s book that he mentions sleeved, sleeveless & also tailess jerkin-style buff coats.

     

    donald

    #99724
    Guy Farrish
    Participant

    Re the Dunham Massey portraits: could be sleeveless, or they could be decorated sleeves, leather overlaid with silks and braid.

    Booth   Grey

    I am sure there were sleeveless ones around (some suggestion that earlier examples – c1600 were more likely to be sleeveless) but a lot of misinterpretation of examples that have lost damaged sleeves and paintings with heavily decorated sleeves that look as if they are from an underlying coat or top probably accounts for many modern interpretations.

    This example from the V&A

    Buff coat decorated sleeve V&A Buff Coat

    #99725
    Etranger
    Participant


    There you go! (& thanks to Yourpaceormine). I think it’s in the perhaps dubious Haythornthwaite’s book that he mentions sleeved, sleeveless & also tailess jerkin-style buff coats.

    donald

    In defence of Haythornthwaite, he used the generally accepted knowledge available at the time he wrote it. Leaving aside some of the uniform and flag details, which are still a source of much debate, it’s still a fair primer on the ECW.

    #99745
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    Ah, debatable ECW flags.

    Bring it on! 😉

     

    "I go online sometimes, but everyone's spelling is really bad. It's... depressing."

    #99748

    Ah, debatable ECW flags. Bring it on! 😉

    I’m new to this period: feel free to start up. I may learn something.

     

    donald

    #99752
    Guy Farrish
    Participant

    Can I refer you to Regimental details British Civil Wars

    part of the British Civil Wars Project BCW Project

    for a starting point on flags? And point out the vast number of ‘not knowns’ in the infantry section,

    and then I shall hide.

     

    #99754
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    Can I refer you to Regimental details British Civil Wars part of the British Civil Wars Project BCW Project for a starting point on flags? And point out the vast number of ‘not knowns’ in the infantry section, and then I shall hide.

    A similar number should honestly be appended ‘conjectural’ 😉

    "I go online sometimes, but everyone's spelling is really bad. It's... depressing."

    #99757
    Guy Farrish
    Participant

    ‘Conjectural’ – what a lovely polite word.

    #99760
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    ‘Conjectural’ – what a lovely polite word.

    “The details of the flags of Sir Obediah Pigbreath’s regiment of foote are uncertain, but as he was known to have had a very great fondness for port we may conjecture that the ground was dark tawny. It is almost certain that he used the Venn system of differencing as it was the most popular.  It is also recorded that his favourite tune was ‘Twinkle Twinkle, Little Star’, so we may conjecture that the device used for the differencing was a five-pointed star.  It is not known if the flags bore a motto, though as a Parliamentarian Pigbreath may have employed some anti-Royalist doggerel as was common on some other Parliamentary standards”.

    Easy, innit?

    🙂

    "I go online sometimes, but everyone's spelling is really bad. It's... depressing."

    #99766

    Can I refer you to Regimental details British Civil Wars

    You most certainly can.

    This resembles my beloved SYW project which made modelling three armies for the period absurdly easy.

     

    Many thanks.

     

    donald

    #99768
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    There’s this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I98LLgi0UgE which explains the ‘heraldry’, for want of a better word, of ECW flags. It’s pretty basic stuff that you probably know already, but he explains it quite well.

    "I go online sometimes, but everyone's spelling is really bad. It's... depressing."

    #99778

    you probably know already,

    By and large, it’s hard to under estimate my ignorance on so many topics…..

    donald

    #99835
    Brendan Morrissey
    Participant

    Re. flags – gyronny was popular with the English Royalists (and then you had Prince Rupert’s foot who took geometry to a different level), but nobody else appears to have used it in this conflict.  I quite liked the Covenanter flags which, in contrast to the dour nature of their flourishers, were positively garish in their alternative depictions of the Scottish saltire.

    #99844
    Etranger
    Participant

    Re. flags – gyronny was popular with the English Royalists (and then you had Prince Rupert’s foot who took geometry to a different level), but nobody else appears to have used it in this conflict. I quite liked the Covenanter flags which, in contrast to the dour nature of their flourishers, were positively garish in their alternative depictions of the Scottish saltire.

    and which are relatively well documented, thanks to Stuart Reid et al. Actually Ochoin, are you familiar with Project Auldearn? There’s a lot of detail about the Scots Covenanter armies in it’s pages. http://auldearn1645.blogspot.com/2015/03/flags-for-lord-balfour-of-burleighs.html

    Trying to research ECW regiments, uniforms and flags etc will either kill or cure anyone with OCD tendencies …

    #99850

    Oh yeah? Try American AWI flags. I pretty much just make mine up.

    It’s not much better with the uniforms.

    #99851

     

    are you familiar with Project Auldearn?

    Yes, I am, thank you. It’s an amazing blog& the source of much of my enthusiasm for the whole ECW thing.

    donald

    #102177
    Ian Bailey
    Participant

    If it helps there are some pretty good notes in the Forlorn Hope rules and, if I recall correctly, Pete Berry had them on the Baccus web site a while back. They are a really good starting point (even if you game in 28mm like me!).

    #102438
    Brendan Morrissey
    Participant

    I believe that Helion is going to produce a book (by Stephen Ede-Borrett, I believe) containing all of the definitely known details of foot and horse flags for the wars of the three kingdoms.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Standards-Guidons-Colours-English-Civil/dp/1911628623/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_14_img_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=SGC3MV8FP1TGKBK8PHC1

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