Home Forums Horse and Musket Napoleonic Early Russian Hussars

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  • #29888
    Jonathan Gingerich
    Participant

    Well, finally stopped rubber-necking TMP and did some work!  Got through the chapter on the 1801-1807 hussars in Leonov, Popov, & Kibovsky.  Nothing too earth shattering as  I had picked up most of the new info from the illustrations posted on Reenactor.  It’s all compiled at:

    zaotlichiye.net63.net/allfacings.html

    #29902
    General Slade
    Participant

    Thanks for the continued updates.  They are much appreciated.

    #29950
    Bandit
    Participant

    Excellent!

    Cheers,

    The Bandit

    #30003
    Lagartija Mike
    Spectator

    And to think here I was with my Old Ingermanland grenadiers with pale yellow facings instead of straw. They are even now marching solemnly into the furnace to erase the shame.

    “INGERMANLAND MY OLD INGERMANLAND!”

    #30201
    Jonathan Gingerich
    Participant

    Wheeeeeeeeeee!

    Just finished up with Hussars!  Some tasty niceties, but nothing mind blowing.  Given my OCD, I’ve been trying to get perfect OCR’s out of Omnipage, and it’s just not up to the footnotes and tiny fonts, etc.  So this time I only processed the main blocks of text, made some routine corrections, and dropped it into Google translate as fast as I could.  Pretty much got through the whole chapter in a day and a half.

    Next I’ll probably tackle the Horse Jaegers just because the section is so small.  Or maybe I will take votes!

    Okay, not pandering for compliments, although they are much appreciated.  Just want to share what I’ve been doing.  I think in all the time I have had my stuff on the web site, I’ve only got one inquiry about it.  And that was from a non-hobbyist who was doing genealogical research and wondered why the Moscow Infantry showed up twice in my Borodino OB.  Oops!

    LM, there’s a reason straw is a better translation, but you are a smart boy so you probably know it already.

    I see Editor Mike still can’t spell Tatar.  It’s T-A-T-A-R, Mike. 

    #30272
    Jonathan Gingerich
    Participant

    Well, that was quick.  Knocked off the Horse Jaegers during lunch. Suggestions? – probably the Lancers, or maybe time start on the Leib-garde which Viskovatov doesn’t cover real carefully.

    #30342
    Jonathan Gingerich
    Participant

    Okay, some more.  Picked up a bug and stayed home from work.  So that allowed me to march through the later Dragoons and Lancers.  There is some new, and satisfying because it explains some things that didn’t make sense, info on the lancer pennants.  Not much else, although I did catch a long standing mistake in the dragoon table when I proofed it again…

    So, Cuirassiers, early cavalry, or guard?

    #30357
    Bandit
    Participant

    One question about hussars and lances. You note them with some units, not with others as far as pennant color and such. Do we know definitively if all hussar units were armed with lances and when?

    And I’d vote for cuirassiers, then guard, then early war. I’m a big early war fan but it is nice to have a resource complete for a whole chunk.

    Thanks again for publishing this.

    Cheers,

    The Bandit

    #30364
    General Slade
    Participant

    Another vote for cuirassiers.  No real reason.  I just like cuirassiers.

    #30374
    Jonathan Gingerich
    Participant

    Yes before the 1812 canpaign –  all but the Olviopol, Belorussia, (in Danube army) and Lubny (in Crimea) who got them later.  This info is in an article translation somewhere on Mark Conrad’s site and I don’t like to duplicate his efforts.

    Leonov, Popov, & Kibovsky say “later” was after they joined the 3d hussar division, i.e. 1813.

    #31801
    Jonathan Gingerich
    Participant

     

    Well that’s a relief.  Got the late line and guard cavalry completed from information from Leonov, Popov, and Kibovsky.  Some interesting bits and confirmation about a lot of nagging questions – the lancer pennants, the guard light cavalry epaulets, cords, and pompons, and so forth.  And some new puzzles.  How many chevrons did the trumpeters have on their sleeves?  I knew I was getting done when the number of notes started rising again.  At first, the information from LPK was simplifying things and I was able to remove some of my speculative notes.  But then I got to the nitty-gritty details and they started rising again.  When I started this project, I was pretty must just grabbing anything and everything that Viskovatov didn’t cover.  But now I have to impose my own judgement on things.  Does a new “fact” go in the text? go in the notes? or maybe make it into a comment in the html?-)  For example, LPK contend that the L-g. Lancers never got copper red buttons because they never showed up on the expense report.  But then they scheme them with L-g. star badges on the pouches, which would be copper red.  You are very unlikely to ever  confirm this  with other evidence, and what there is is rather thin.  So notes or not?  (I attached it to a similar note…;-)

    Well, almost complete.  Turns out the L-g. saddlecloths used guard lace – the red tape with yellow “checks” (mascles).  Actually there is one Viskovatov print of this, but I tend to concentrate on the later period and wasn’t conscious of this.  The lace didn’t go to plain yellow until 1811, so I have some challenging graphics work if I want to meet current standards.

    Speaking of which, I finally took a hard look at Viskovatov’s Horse Jaeger plate, and discovered that, indeed, he was wearing his pouch belt underneath the separate bandolier for the carbine, and then I realized only the Dragoons had lost the metal bits off the bandolier/pouch belts, not the Cuirassiers.  Okay, that’s how I have my fun.  Beats arguing about Berezina with blockheads.

    JG

    #31806
    Greystreak
    Participant

    Your updates are always much appreciated, Jonathan.

    Bryce Allen

    #31861
    Bandit
    Participant

    Okay, that’s how I have my fun.

    Ha!

    Well bless ya for it. You know well that I appreciate your updates to this project but I’ll post it here again. Thank you.

    Cheers,

    The Bandit

    #34139
    Jonathan Gingerich
    Participant

    Well it’s been a while.  Almost through the early cavalry.  Not much new on the Cuirassiers or Dragoons.  But a bit on the Lancers.  The most interesting of which is that in 1802 there was an order to differentiate each of the 10 squadrons of the Polish and the Lithuania-Tatar with their own pattern of pennant.  Furthermore, the two regiments were distinguished by the color of the lance shaft – black wood color for the Polish and red wood color for the Lithuania-Tatar. Now the word for shaft “drevko” and the word for wood “derevo” are quite similar.  So I’m thinking that perhaps the red shafts of the Don Cossack lances were more properly red wood shafts?  Certainly a red stained finish would seem more economical than all that paint…  Unfortunately LPK does not cover the irregulars, so it’s an open question…

    #34827
    Jonathan Gingerich
    Participant

    WheeeeEEEEeeeee!

    Okay, the L-g. the line, early, late – Leonov, Popov, & Kibrovsky’s tome on Alexander I’s cavalry is done!

    (well we will review at some point in the future…).

    Added the L-g cavalier saddle cloth patterns, fixed the early L-g. Hussars, added the early L-g. Cossack, even put the obscure Leib-Uralsk Cossack Century…

    Well, enjoy!  (and let me know where I goofed;-)

    JG

    #34828
    Bandit
    Participant

    WOOHOO!

    Cheers,

    The Bandit

    #35085
    Jonathan Gingerich
    Participant

    Started looking at the foot volume.  Some significant, but probably unwelcome, news about the early Jaegers.  Seems the unique “top hat” was only delivered to half the regiments and then was replaced the next year by the shako when the musketeers received them.

    #36123
    janner
    Participant

    I am very grateful for all your hard work, Jonathan, especially as I intend to do 3rd Infantry Division c.1812 in 2016. 

    Am I correct in reading that Russian squadrons were not half the size of western ones as previously thought, i.e. a Hussar regiment would have ten squadrons each at c.140?

    Thanks again

    http://jannersjaunt.blogspot.dk

    #36263
    Jonathan Gingerich
    Participant

    Hi Janner – happy new year and all that to everyone – just got back from the East Coast visiting family (and updating the Pioneers 😉 )

    The important thing to remember about the big cavalry regiments (and I think this holds for the Austrians as well) is that they served in two battalions, so always just 5 squads before 1811.  Then one of the “center squads” became the depot squad and it was down to 4.  I believe the senior squad was always on the right, and the next most senior on the left, but they may have been mixed in the middle depending upon who was commanding what.  Anyway, two 4 squad battalions.

    In LPK there are some orders about the way the 7 squad post-1812 regiments were handled.  I didn’t get it fully worked out, but it seems the regiments were being kept at 3 full active squads, by rotating them all back to Poland for refit and recruitment.

    Let me check out the 3d division flags for you before you get too committed…

    #36278
    janner
    Participant

    Many thanks, I went for GMB for the Reval Regiment.

    http://jannersjaunt.blogspot.dk

    #36279
    Jonathan Gingerich
    Participant

    Well, the 3d Division flags are fairly straightforward, so if you’ve chosen GMB I’ll stop chattering.

    Do be aware that the 4th infantry regiment was Selenginsk.  For some reason it had ended up brigaded with the 3d and at some point in 1812 it officially replaced Koporye.

    #36281
    Lagartija Mike
    Spectator

    Jonathan, I believe you’re mistaken. 4th infantry regiment was Alkash Babnik.

    #36283
    janner
    Participant

    I understand that the Selenguisk and Kaporsk exchanged at some point, but I believe the latter were in 3rd Division for the battle of Valutina Hill.

    • This reply was modified 5 years, 2 months ago by janner.
    • This reply was modified 5 years, 2 months ago by janner.

    http://jannersjaunt.blogspot.dk

    #36297
    Guy Farrish
    Participant

    Jonathan, I believe you’re mistaken. 4th infantry regiment was Alkash Babnik.

    Maybe (I’m sure a lot of them were) but is it relevant?

    #36298
    Lagartija Mike
    Spectator

    I believe Basil Vasiliev’s seminal work, Babniks on the Hoof, indicates their regimental banners were roundly condemned by the Metropolitans of Tomsk and Vladimir-Suzdal.

    #36302
    Guy Farrish
    Participant

    I believe Basil Vasiliev’s seminal work, Babniks on the Hoof, indicates their regimental banners were roundly condemned by the Metropolitans of Tomsk and Vladimir-Suzdal.

    нe знаю мой друг но я думаю вы шутите

    #36303
    Jonathan Gingerich
    Participant

    Janner,

    Looks that way.  I remember seeing confirmation of an actual order to swap in an unexpected place (maybe Lieven??) and neglected to note it.  Not really sure of the timing or circumstances, but it does seem to have occurred before Borodino.

    I read Pynchon’s Inherent Vice over the break.  Sort of like getting a flu shot.

    #36327
    Bandit
    Participant

    Jonathan, I believe you’re mistaken. 4th infantry regiment was Alkash Babnik.

    I’ve got the 3rd Infantry Division at Loubino (Valoutino-Gora) as being:

    3rd Inf Division: Konovnitsyn
    Murom Line
    Reval Line
    Chernigov Line
    Selenginsk Line

    Where did you see the Selenginsk being exchanged with the Alkesh Babnik?

    Cheers,

    The Bandit

    #36344
    janner
    Participant

    I must buy Dominic’s piece, but in the meantime, I’d be delighted if someone did know when the Selenge/Kapor exchange took place 

     

    • This reply was modified 5 years, 1 month ago by janner.

    http://jannersjaunt.blogspot.dk

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