Home Forums Horse and Musket General Horse and Musket ECW – where to start….

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  • #177015
    Avatar photoian pillay
    Participant

    Ok, my interest got peaked when out walking near where we live at a place called Alkborough Flats. There was a plaque that described how a gun battery was attacked during the civil war as the Guns overlooked the Trent.
    I’ve never really considers gaming the ECW but knowing a small skirmish took place a few miles from my home got me thinking that it could be worth a look. So as the post title states – where to start…

    Rules, I have a NT rules so they would do to start with until I get a feel for what size battles I want to play.
    miniatures. This is where I need most help. Who and what size/ scale. Also any good reference books for ECW battles that took place in Lincolnshire would be useful as well.
    I know it’s a lot to ask but I also know I am asking the most knowledgeable people in the hobby!

    Tally-Ho! Check out my blog at…..
    http://steelcitywargaming.wordpress.com/

    #177016
    Avatar photoJim Webster
    Participant

    Is this just going to be you? Or can you inveigle others into a project? Also have you any particular favourite or unfavourite scales?

    https://jimssfnovelsandwargamerules.wordpress.com/

    #177018
    Avatar photoian pillay
    Participant

    I mainly solo game, but I have a friend who is keen to try his hand at Wargaming. I enjoy all scales, so I guess I need to find a manufacturer who has a comprehensive range of figures or manufacturers who’s ranges mix well.

    Tally-Ho! Check out my blog at…..
    http://steelcitywargaming.wordpress.com/

    #177020
    Avatar photoRadar
    Participant

    A lot depends on what size figures you fancy 6, 10, 15 or 28mm. Big battles, small battles or skirmishes? I can bore you to death about 15mm, the state of play of different ranges and compatability. For 28mm I’d point you in the direction of a sticky thread over on Lead Adventure.

    Rather than copy and paste here’s a link to the first of my 15mm which figures posts https://www.keepyourpowderdry.co.uk/2017/12/which-figures.html

    There’s lots of really good source material on the web available free of charge, again rather than cutting and pasting… https://www.keepyourpowderdry.co.uk/2020/03/research-getting-started.html

    Lincolnshire and the Civil War? There is a section of my blog devoted to ECW tourism called the ECWtravelogue and I am in the process of finishing writing the Lincolnshire entry. It will surface mid September.

    Hope that helps

    www.keepyourpowderdry.co.uk

    #177021
    Avatar photoJim Webster
    Participant

    with regard to rule sets, the last ECW games I played were to Baroque rules  https://www.wargamevault.com/product/186714/Baroque

    They are one unit per base so you can use any scale. They work well, and also have a wider historical range than ECW so will allow you to try other options as well 😉

    https://jimssfnovelsandwargamerules.wordpress.com/

    #177022
    Avatar photoNorm S
    Participant

    There is rumour that the next EPIC wargame set to be put out by Warlord Games will be ECW based, but I have not seen anything anywhere that actually supports that.

    I would recommend the Warlord Games ‘To Kill A King’ supplement. This is essentially a scenario book, plus supporting information that supports their Pike & Shotte rules (which have Black Powder DNA in them), but the scenario book can be used for it’s own sake.

    I know over the last few days, Warlord Games have been doing 15% discount on their ECW 28mm range and their starter set includes the Pike & Shotte rules. I don’t know much about the rules, but I recall criticism that a Pike & Shot unit could see their pike and shot wings go off and do their own thing, though simple house rules can stop / limit that.

    Peter Pig have a nice 15mm ECW range.

    There is a YouTuber who puts on a game using the old Warhammer ECW rules, it might just interest you to see his table / game if you are in an EW mood.

    LINK

     

    #177023
    Avatar photoEtranger
    Participant

    There are ECW figures in just about every size, so perhaps pick one that goes with what you already have for scenery etc.  This is not an all inclusive list. There are wide ranges of figures in 15/18mm (Peter Pig, QRF, Eureka, Matchlock (from Caliver) & Museum ) and 25/28/30mm (Foundry, Eureka (Montrose Scots), TAG, Perry, Warlord (plastic & metal),  Redoubt), to name but a few, in roughly ascending size of figure. Museum and Redoubt are monsters compared to the other ranges! There’s a 20mm range (?Tumbling Dice?) & some of the 20mm plastic 30YW figures also suit. Pendraken have a 10mm range & Baccus and Heroics/Ros have 6mm ranges.

    Troop types are foote – pike & shot, in varying ratios, depending upon army and date; cavalry, , which were common and usually unarmoured (Buff coat) with a few more heavily armoured types; dragoons, which were less common & still largely functioning as mounted infantry in the era; and artillery, which was often present, but had a limited effect on the battlefield (sieges were a different matter). Montrose Scots also had highlanders and Irish ‘kerns’, although the latter were probably conventionally equipped.

    It is possible to raise both sides relatively easily;  the armies were usually small & there were often few distinctions between  the different armies; sash colour on officers (red for Royalist, tawny (orange) for Essex, green, blue and yellow for other Roundhead commanders), blue bonnets on Scots & sometimes distinctive flags. A regiment can swap sides very easily if you have additional command stands. There’s a useful primer on the Baccus website. https://www.baccus6mm.com/_paintingguides/ECW_Coats.pdf & this is an old but still useful thread on LA https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=44053.0

    Best of all, a lot of the information doesn’t even exist for many regiments, particularly in the earlier years, so no one can tell you that you’re wrong!

    #177032
    Avatar photoJim Webster
    Participant

    You can even do it in 2mm 😉

    https://www.irregularminiatures.co.uk/2mmRanges/2mmRenaissance.htm

    https://jimssfnovelsandwargamerules.wordpress.com/

    #177037
    Avatar photoEtranger
    Participant

    A bit tricky painting the sashes though!

    #177038
    Avatar photoGuy Farrish
    Participant

    I’m stunned no-one has mentioned Bicorne or Empress in 28mm. Redoubt. Bloody Miniatures make a great range of characters, officers, rogues for skirmish games, sculpted by Nick Collier who did the Bicorne range and Renegade(no longer available?).

    Pendraken 10mm – huge range and great if you want figures with detail, character and the ability to fit hundreds of them on a small table and still have flanks.

    NT? No idea what that is Sorry. Rules generally all miss what is ECW for me. One set that doesn’t and which works really well within the normal constraints of table size (c6’x4′) and smaller figure sizes – 10mm (am I overselling this?)  is Twilight of Divine Right – available from the Pike & Shot Society website.  There is a scenario book available and lots of support at the Wyre Forest club site from one of the the authors, Nick Dorrel – who posts here sometimes.

    They also have ‘The Army of the Eastern Association: Officers and Regiments’ by Lawrence Spring which you might want if you get deeper into things and want actual units rather than generic ‘Parliamentarian’. The Eastern Association was the Parliamentarian grouping to the south of Lincolnshire, which was squeezed between them and the Royalists in Yorkshire (massive generalisation).

    Lincolnshire – don’t know of any books specifically focused on Lincolnshire. For a general feel of how the county fitted in to the eastern theatre start with BCW Project also worth a look for a general feel is the Battlefields Trust’s UK Battlefields Resource Centre. Both these sites are pretty reliable.

    Winceby, Gainsborough and the Siege of Lincoln are going to be the actions that pop up everywhere online. A start might be ‘Seventeenth Century Lincolnshire’ Vol VII of the History of Lincolnshire by Clive Holmes. (see Society for Lincolnshire History & Archaeology, History of Lincolnshire Project.) Currently out of print but available second hand at a reasonable price on Amazon here or at an extortionate price at the same venue -all I can say about Paper Cavalier is that they used to buy books from me at retail price, never asked for trade discount, and sold on at massively inflated prices. The book is a general history but obviously the Civil Wars dominate the century.

    Good luck and enjoy a fascinating period. If I think of any books beyond the usual stuff on the campaigns between the Eastern Association and Newcastle’s northern Royalists I’ll let you know. Someone will no doubt have the secret!

     

     

    #177041
    Avatar photoian pillay
    Participant

    I knew this was the correct place to ask these questions. I am overwhelmed by all the useful information and feedback. A knowledgeable bunch indeed.

    Thank you for all that information everyone. Naively I didn’t realise how much of a Rabbits hole the ECW would be. I think it will turn out to be a fun project. There is so much to go at. I am going to have fun researching all those miniature suppliers. Not sure my bank account will agree.
    I know the Royal Armouries in Leeds use to have a lot of ECW uniforms and equipment on display. Any other museums that are worth visiting to do more ECW research?

    Guy, NT = Neil Thomas

    Tally-Ho! Check out my blog at…..
    http://steelcitywargaming.wordpress.com/

    #177042
    Avatar photoGuy Farrish
    Participant

    Ah, thanks. I know of Neil Thomas rules. Always associate NT with National Trust and I think that acronym slot in my brain is full.

    Have fun with your new interest, don’t be afraid to ask – but be prepared for about six definitive answers to every question!

    #177043
    Avatar photokyoteblue
    Participant

    I game it with The Pikeman’s lament in 15mm with Essex and Minifigs.

    #177046
    Avatar photoRadar
    Participant

    Hi Ian, there are lots of sites and museums to visit. Too many to list see https://www.keepyourpowderdry.co.uk/search/label/ECW%20Travelogue?m=1

    Personal favourites? National Civil War Centre, Combined Military Services Museum, Broughton Castle, West Berkshire Museum, Basing House

    www.keepyourpowderdry.co.uk

    #177047
    Avatar photoNot Connard Sage
    Participant

    is Twilight of Divine Right – available from the Pike & Shot Society website. There is a scenario book available and lots of support at the Wyre Forest club site from one of the the authors, Nick Dorrel – who posts here sometimes.

    I thought Divine Right was an add on for Twiglet of the Sun King, and needed those rules to play? 🙂

    Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

    #177050
    Avatar photoRadar
    Participant

    Twilight of Divine Right (full title, makes it easier) doesn’t require Twilight for the Sun King. TDR is core rulebook for ECW/30YW, TSK is core rulebook for later C17th.

     

    Edit: due to lack of sleep I missed out sum wordz

    www.keepyourpowderdry.co.uk

    #177055
    Avatar photoGuy Farrish
    Participant

    Wot e sed ^^^^

    #177058
    Avatar photoNot Connard Sage
    Participant

    I sit corrected 🙂

     

    Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

    #177062
    Avatar photoJim Webster
    Participant

    A bit tricky painting the sashes though!

    I use the same brush that I use for painting the eye lashes on 6mm 😉

    https://jimssfnovelsandwargamerules.wordpress.com/

    #177071
    Avatar photoMartinR
    Participant

    As noted Twilight of Divine Right is standalone, but far too complex for my tastes so I pared back the the enormous lists of modifiers back to something approaching the original. There is a great game buried in there though, and a far better model of seventeenth century command issues than many other sets.

    My ECW stuff is all 2mm. Dead easy to paint, cheap and easy to store.

    "Mistakes in the initial deployment cannot be rectified" - Helmuth von Moltke

    #177101
    Avatar photoGuy Farrish
    Participant

    I hate to dissent , but…

    Obviously I can’t really  – your taste is your taste, but I am surprised – I scuttled off to the more accessible end of the great rule shelf of doom and retrieved TDR- haven’t played for a few months.

    There are only two moving parts:

    movement (possibly with Action tests, and Condition – a complication that can confuse) ,

    combat/firing – both subsumed under morale test with modifiers.

    Mods – 1 page but most of that split between exclusive arms mods – foot/horse/arty and you don’t need to look at the other two.

    Admittedly you get the chrome (?) plug ins of infantry formations and cavalry schools – but that’s what TYW/ECW people want isn’t it – and they aren’t onerous.

    The whole set is 36 pages long, but the rules comprise 25 pages, and the mechanisms are in 13 pages of well spaced sensible font, with diagrams and charts. Not a dense read.

    cf the 208pp of Pike&Shotte. There may be a game in there but my brain shuts down after half an hour of trying to extract the rules from the (polite mode engaged) other stuff.

    Short version: Don’t be put off having a look at TDR.

    #177125

    My own journey was 28mm Warlord Plastics using the Tercios rules set.

     

    I also strongly suggest the For King and Parliament system from BigRedBatCave. Good grid based system for all your space options, and scenario books

    "Do you not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?"

    Axel Oxenstierna

    #177146
    Avatar photowillz
    Participant

    I am ignoring this post as I do not want to be dragged onto another gaming project,😀 12mm ECW hmmmm tempting😃.

    #177150
    Avatar photoJim Webster
    Participant

    OThis is where I need most help. Who and what size/ scale. Also any good reference books for ECW battles that took place in Lincolnshire would be useful as well. I know it’s a lot to ask but I also know I am asking the most knowledgeable people in the hobby!

     

    “Go not to the Elves for counsel for they will answer both no and yes.”    😉

    https://jimssfnovelsandwargamerules.wordpress.com/

    #177159
    Avatar photoRadar
    Participant

    The new, hot off the press, Campaigns of the Eastern Association by Laurence Spring (Helion) sadly doesn’t give much more information on 1643 Lincolnshire campaign than the overview on the BCW Wiki

    www.keepyourpowderdry.co.uk

    #177180
    Avatar photoGuy Farrish
    Participant

    Hi Ian,

    Had another quick look re Lincolnshire in ECW:

    Battle of Gainsborough – 1643 by John West paperback (2021)

    Oliver Cromwell and the Battle of Gainsborough John West  (1992) oop

    West (above) has a short article on Gainsborough in Cromwelliana available online – http://www.olivercromwell.org/Cromwelliana_Archive/1993.pdf

    Article p.9:  OLIVER CROMWELL AND THE BATTLE OF GAINSBOROUGH, JULY 1643 by John West

     

    Winceby and the Battle by Kay Brammer (1994) oop but available second hand.

    But there are good online introductions to the two battles with overview of the strategic situation in Lincolnshire, mainly revolving around the situation in Hull between Newcastle and Fairfax with help from the Eastern Association.

    https://historicengland.org.uk/content/docs/listing/battlefields/winceby/

    https://web.archive.org/web/20060211035959/http://www.bolingbrokecastle.com/Siege.htm

    http://www.visitoruk.com/Horncastle/civil-war-1642-45-C1207-HL1087.html

     

    #178192
    Avatar photoRadar
    Participant

    The #ECWtravelogue entry for Lincolnshire is now up on KeepYourPowderDry

    https://www.keepyourpowderdry.co.uk/2022/09/houses-of-interest-lincolnshire.html

    www.keepyourpowderdry.co.uk

    #178231
    Avatar photoian pillay
    Participant

    Thank you so much for compiling and sharing that information about Lincolnshire.
    That is AMAZING! Who would have thought there was that much ECW action in Lincolnshire. I can testify that there is an information board at Alkborough Flats that describes briefly the gun battery skirmish that took place there.
    My Tumbling dice ECW arrived  last week and my copy of  “To kill at King” should be here this week. All this is really helping me get into the period.

     

    Tally-Ho! Check out my blog at…..
    http://steelcitywargaming.wordpress.com/

    #178253
    Avatar photoRadar
    Participant

    <p style=”text-align: left;”>I always think that having something tangible and local makes the period come alive.</p>
    Good luck painting your figures up (if you want any painting guides, there are just a few on the blog)

    www.keepyourpowderdry.co.uk

    #178261
    Avatar photoThaddeus Blanchette
    Participant

    I know that Warlord has been making some rumblings about doing an ECW game in their new Epic scale. It is a favorite of Stallard’s and it would be a relatively easy project to do, with only two plastic sprues needed. They tend to launch these projects at year’s end, so you might want to wait until December and see if this is their next epic project.

    We get slapped around, but we have a good time!

    #178267
    Avatar photoian pillay
    Participant

    Brilliant. Thank you.

    Tally-Ho! Check out my blog at…..
    http://steelcitywargaming.wordpress.com/

    #178268
    Avatar photoian pillay
    Participant

    I know that Warlord has been making some rumblings about doing an ECW game in their new Epic scale. It is a favorite of Stallard’s and it would be a relatively easy project to do, with only two plastic sprues needed. They tend to launch these projects at year’s end, so you might want to wait until December and see if this is their next epic project.

    Excellent, be great if these rumblings are true. 15mm ECW in plastic would be brilliant. Could keep the bigger figures for skirmishes and those for the big battles.

    Tally-Ho! Check out my blog at…..
    http://steelcitywargaming.wordpress.com/

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