Home Forums General General 'Elastic measuring' and 'Post Move Nudge'….

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  • #63472
    Iain Fuller
    Participant

    … what’s worse out of the two when an opponent does it, and do you ever pull them up about it?

    • This topic was modified 4 years, 3 months ago by Iain Fuller.
    #63474
    Mike
    Keymaster

    Depends, I kind of don’t play games with people that are massively competitive, if a slight nudge makes the game more interesting then all is good with me.
    I would rather an interesting game that I lose than a dull game with no fudging that I lose.
    I guess it also depends how much of a nudge it is.

    #63487
    Steve Johnson
    Participant

    Pretty much agree with Michael.

    #63488
    Victoria Dickson
    Participant

    I tend to go for grid systems now, which avoids the problem.  But as to which is worse…

    If it’s a competitive game they are both just as bad, cheating is cheating, assuming it’s deliberate.

    For friendly games, if a unit has a move of 12″ and you position yourself 12 1/16″ away from it then are you being as bad as them when they stretch their ruler?  Micro measurements are a pain, if you want to be out of range make it by enough that it’s obvious, and state that they are and let your opponent confirm it during your move when you reach that position.

     

     

    #63495
    Ivan Sorensen
    Participant

    True that grids solve it completely 🙂

    If things start looking dodgy, I’ll do things like declaring “so these guys are NOT in charge range,agreed?”

    Nordic Weasel Games
    https://www.wargamevault.com/browse/pub/5701/Nordic-Weasel-Games?src=browse5701

    #63497
    Mr. Average
    Participant

    I usually err on the side of keeping the action moving. If someone is slightly out of range I’ll comp them the extra distance, or just say close enough is good enough. This is easier with larger Imperial units – for whatever reason I’ve found that metrics make people way more fiddly. I’m with Victoria in this though – if you’re playing to where 1/16″ makes a big difference you’re missing the point.

    #63501
    Iain Fuller
    Participant

    The ‘hold the tape vaguely over (actually well in front) of the base, then plonk the base down a bit further than the proscribed movement and then give it a nudge just for good measure’ that I’ve seen recently was done nearly constantly and was, quite frankly, beginning to get on my tits. I did try the subtle approach of ‘How far can those move again?’ but it didn’t seem to work.

    I don’t usually say anything as I am playing for fun and I always endeavour to uphold the Corinthian spirit, by the way Victoria I’m definitely not one of those players that position themselves just so: if I’m too close I’m too close, c’est la guerre and all that! However if your opponent isn’t playing the game in the same spirit then this usually end up making the game exhausting for me as I’m constantly monitoring them for any other ‘shenanigans’ and it sort of spoils it.

     

    #63509
    PatG
    Participant

    I appear to be in good company. For friendly games – I go with what makes sense but there is an assumption of give and take. Usually that means allowing a couple of extra mm or 1/16 of movement. I also tend to specify ranges like Ivan says. No unit in history has ever moved exactly 6 scale inches (which is why I like randomized movement) so a little wiggle room is par for the course.  I rarely play tournament but the last time I used a “cooperate the first time then tit for tat” strategy.  Really though with decent human beings it’s a non-issue. Indecent players will rarely get another game.

    Side note: over the weekend I soloed a game where one side charged enemy on the other side of a hill. They had (4 dice)/2 for move and came up short. Then I re-read the rules and saw they should have used (8 dice)/2 so I rolled another 4 and they still came up just short of contact. It was too epic a gaming moment to give them the benefit of the doubt, so pulled up short they stayed.

    #63510
    Victoria Dickson
    Participant

    The ‘hold the tape vaguely over (actually well in front) of the base, then plonk the base down a bit further than the proscribed movement and then give it a nudge just for good measure’ that I’ve seen recently was done nearly constantly and was, quite frankly, beginning to get on my tits. I did try the subtle approach of ‘How far can those move again?’ but it didn’t seem to work. I don’t usually say anything as I am playing for fun and I always endeavour to uphold the Corinthian spirit, by the way Victoria I’m definitely not one of those players that position themselves just so: if I’m too close I’m too close, c’est la guerre and all that! However if your opponent isn’t playing the game in the same spirit then this usually end up making the game exhausting for me as I’m constantly monitoring them for any other ‘shenanigans’ and it sort of spoils it.

    Sorry if I implied you did that, it wasn’t my intention.

    I used to play against a guy who used generous moves (the game also involved wheeling from the corner of a unit and he always pivoted it on it’s centre no matter how many times he was told it didn’t work like that).  And yeah, it got really annoying.  But he was a nice guy, he didn’t actually care if he won or lost so long as the game was exciting.  For me that was what counted, if he was doing it because winning was all that mattered to him I would have stopped playing against him.

    So, erm, I think I’m saying it’s motive that matters?

     

    #63513
    Mr. Average
    Participant

    Likewise, I hope you realize I neant my remark in the indefinite. If someone is being deliberately funky with the measurements it’s kind of pushing your hospitality, I think. There’s a fine line between being flexible and being gamey.

    #63519
    Norm S
    Participant

    Grids – tick.

    But also agree with Victoria …. motive is everything.

    You can see it in other areas, a retreat result and a gamer moves their piece(s) to what amounts to a better position that is not directly backwards. I have even seen a retreat ‘forwards’ move and there was nothing in the rules to stop it, so it was legal and that was on a grid for goodness sake, so even grids can still need fair minded players, although if a grid fails it is a failure of the rules rather than the grid itself .

    #63522
    Phil Dutré
    Participant

    Not allowing premeasurements for actions that would happen only a turn later helps a lot. Keeps everyone guessing.

    But if someone intentionally wants to take constant advantage of the inherent fuzzyness of wargaming measurements, you should address the player about it.  It’s a player’s attitude problem, not a rules problem.

    Tiny Tin Men Blog: http://snv-ttm.blogspot.com/
    Wargaming Mechanics Blog: http://wargaming-mechanics.blogspot.com/

    #63534
    Victoria Dickson
    Participant

    Sorry, but my friends and I are intensely competitive with each other, some of us since kindergarten, and it’s fun. I can see how competitive folks in an environment of essentially strangers at a club or store are morons, but with my buddies, it’s blood we’re after. 😀 😀 😀

    It’s great with the right group of people. 🙂

    These days my competitiveness is limited to online backgammon and beating my grandson at Mario Kart, the wargaming is all solo unfortunately.

    #63536
    Mike
    Keymaster

    Someone start a Mario Kart topic in the correct forum, I will pwn you all

     

    😀 😀

     

    #63537
    Bandit
    Participant

    We play some skirmish games (The Sword & the Flame), some really tactical games (Guns of Liberty), and some grand tactical games (Et sans résultat!).

    In TSTF it is a bit of a problem because the arc is like 30º or something that no one seems to be easily able to estimate and aiming is per figure, and supposed to be along the point of their weapon – not their base – and because the collection we play with is based on round bases, doesn’t help either.

    In GoL for the most part it isn’t too much of a problem. The bases are square, the arcs – even if not easier measurements – are easier to measure off square bases. We get the same problem there though.

    With ESR we have very little, if ever, any trouble. But, the system doesn’t really penalize or incentivize exactness. The arcs are 45º, the bases are square, and movement rates are fast.

    What I’m trying to illustrate is that it seems that the more precise players need to be in their game play, the more this stuff becomes a problem in my experience.

    Cheers,

    The Bandit

    #63557

    As long as everyone understands and buys into a convention it’s fine. Problems seem to arise when a player is using a convention that the other player is not on-board with. E.g. some people insist on re-rolling cocked dice, and you can get the feeling that such people’s definition of a cocked die might very occasionally – but at important moments – depend on the number that comes up on the dice as much as with where it lands or what it has touched on the way!

    Same with relaxed/strict movement. If the convention is usually elastic, but at a crucial point becomes strict (or vice versa), there is potential for hard feelings.

    So, like my old man taught us as kids, sometimes it’s better to play to the letter of the law. Not because you want to be a stickler, but because then everyone knows where they stand.

    Everyone’s different though, and in some situations (especially with kids or newbies involved) it can be good policy to allow a bit of leeway.

    #63576
    Iain Fuller
    Participant

    No worries Victoria and Mr Average.

    #63583
    MartinR
    Participant

    What I’m trying to illustrate is that it seems that the more precise players need to be in their game play, the more this stuff becomes a problem in my experience.

    Absolutely.

    Indeed. If everything is a bit vague, it really doesn’t matter that much, but when millimetric measurements and exact alignment make the difference between life and death (yes, I mean you DBA), then silliness can ensue.

    Give me a grid any day.

     

     

    "Mistakes in the initial deployment cannot be rectified" - Helmuth von Moltke

    #63591
    Phil Dutré
    Participant

    The problem really arises when combining elastic and exact measurements in the same game. E.g. I don’t mind if your movement isn’t measured too exactly, but if you then insist my firing distance is measured to the mm precisely to reach those same troops, then we have a problem. Same goes for firing back and forth. If you fire at my troops, and we conclude it’s possible (range and LOS), the shot is also possible in the reverse.

    Grids (or implied grids such as used in Crossfire) solve many of these problems.

    Also, some rules make it difficult for themselves. E.g. they insist troops are oriented properly, but when receiving a charge, you can turn to the enemy anyway. Or you can start movement in any direction you want. Then what’s the purpose of having exact orientations to start with … ?

    Tiny Tin Men Blog: http://snv-ttm.blogspot.com/
    Wargaming Mechanics Blog: http://wargaming-mechanics.blogspot.com/

    #63593
    Bandit
    Participant

    Also, some rules make it difficult for themselves. E.g. they insist troops are oriented properly, but when receiving a charge, you can turn to the enemy anyway. Or you can start movement in any direction you want. Then what’s the purpose of having exact orientations to start with … ?

    Which is actually just an internal inconsistency in the design philosophy of that rule system right?

    With ESR, we were very focused on trying to provide internal consistency. One can never be sure if they missed a step, but we tried very hard at it and continue to look for errors in that regard. I think part of what helps is looking at the system holistically any time you engage with any problem.

    It is very common for me to speak with another designer – or a player who dabbles in design – who says, “You can just fix XYZ by adding a modifier [or special case rule].” My concern about that type of solution is that it naturally leads to creating a patchwork of specific cases rather than creating a general case to cover the overwhelming majority of eventualities.

    For instance, in our topic here of precise placement, I have seen rule systems that indicate “when in disorder only the stands that make contact fight mêlée”. Seems straight forward enough. However, “disorder” is elsewhere defined as a “general clump or mob of stands”. Well, a clump or mob is not a defined shape, thus, depending on how they are arranged at contact, you will get more or less stands allowed to fight in the mêlée. I have also seen this same issued addressed more holistically in other systems: “In mêlée a disordered unit may only fight with 1/4 of its stands”. This latter rule means that exact placement of the stands is immaterial. Thus, the player can’t “do it wrong” by placing their stands in an inexact manner.

    Cheers,

    The Bandit

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 3 months ago by Bandit. Reason: Clarified connection between general statement and practical example
    #63614
    PatG
    Participant

    In TSTF it is a bit of a problem because the arc is like 30º or something that no one seems to be easily able to estimate and aiming is per figure, and supposed to be along the point of their weapon – not their base – and because the collection we play with is based on round bases, doesn’t help either.  

    I primarily play Soldier’s Companion which is heavily based on TSATF and I just eyeball it. 😉

    #63641
    McKinstry
    Participant

    I don’t play really competitive games nor are there any super competitive folks in our group but overall I’d say our “consensus” method is that when something appears quite close, we ask our opponent as in “I think that is in arc/range/etc., do you agree?” It works for us and we really don’t have arguments.

    The tree of Life is self pruning.

    #63646
    Ivan Sorensen
    Participant

    Way back, when writing Fast And Dirty, the frustration with precise figure placement in close combat made us establish close combat as “if one bloke makes contact, everybody fights” 🙂

    Nordic Weasel Games
    https://www.wargamevault.com/browse/pub/5701/Nordic-Weasel-Games?src=browse5701

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