Fantasy Rules

[IanKH]

I’ve returned to fantasy wargaming after a long, long sabbatical. My previous fantasy wargaming involved Chainmail and AD&D other than that my main wargaming has been Napoleonics, ECW, ancients etc… I use to build, paint and sell Warhammer armies but never played a game. Since last year I’ve been getting back into fantasy mainly playing Rangers of Shadodeep, Frostgrave and Dragon Rampant.

I’ve been looking for big battle rule but I can’t find anything that I like. What options are there and what is being played? I’ve been watching the development of Oathmark but I’m not keen. I think Drangon Rampant can do what Oathmark promises. What I’d like is something more akin to Hail Caesar. Lots of regiments and big battles with the freedom to create huge armies.

Any ideas?

[Andrew Beasley]

Do you fancy complex troop types with lots of tables, buckets of dice games, magic heavy or quick and nasty?

Odd as it sounds, you can still get Chainmail here if you have lost / sold your set.

Ive had a few good games of Mighty Armies – thin set of rules but work well – designed for 15mm as are the Alternate Armies Use Me rules.

I had Battle Valor rules bookmarked but not tried them – think it came from seeing a demo at a show but could be well wrong! I do know it’s troop rather than hero based – one of my pet hates is a few characters dominating the battle.
Try eBay for Demonworld rules – they often are very cheap as few use them and I think they are slowly going away.

Chipco Fantasy Rules! (note the exclamation mark) also known as FR!3 (ver 3 basically) are good for up to 50-60 figures (may be a bit small) and you can get a couple of battles and Pizza in an afternoon.

I thought there was a version of LOTR for big battles but I cannot find it now – limited in magic / troop types / dominated by dice and heroic actions though.

Main issue now for 28mm figures is the cost – 15s or 6mm are better for big big battles.

[Andrew Beasley]

Blush – totally forgot the Warmaster Living Rules – thanks to Mr Average and his 3mm post

[Tony S]

Well, there is a fan-written fantasy version of Hail Caesar – have you checked those out?  They’re called “Shadow Storm”.  The gentleman who developed them apparently did so with Rick Priestley’s permission, and are free.  He used to have website, but I think he moved to Facebook.

Dragon Rampant isn’t really a big battle type game IMHO, so if you’re looking for regiments and big armies, I don’t think it would fit.

I’m not terribly keen on Kings of War, from Mantic, but was developed specifically as a big battle ruleset, and it certainly is.  It’s not my cup of tea, as it doesn’t have enough fog of war or tactics to suit me, but obviously tastes vary!  I added a photo of a game.  Obviously it is BIG BATTLE rank & file!  (although as you can see the opportunity for actual tactics and maneuver seem a trifle limited to “move forward”)  That said, Mantic offer a free download of the rules, so that is a mark in their favour.  https://www.manticgames.com/mantic-games-free-rules/

 

 

[Albert of Winterpig]

If you want big battle Hail Ceasar, perhaps Warhammer 5th edition may well suit you perfectly. (other editions might as well, but that was a sweet spot with the splat books).

I use ‘To the Strongest’ with the magic system from Reaper (old ttg rules, precusor to Warhammer).

[fairoaks024]

Well I’ll fly the flag for Kings of War.

very clearly written rules, very clean play, and is very tactical with a lot of depth. It honestly comes down to who is the better player and plays the scenario rather than who had the best army list.

 

has a thriving competition scene if you are into tournaments with the absolute friendliest crowd I’ve ever met i all my many years of gaming.

 

good luck with whichever rules you settle on Though!

[Mike6t3]

Have you looked at Pride of Lions by Splintered Light Games ? http://www.splinteredlightminis.com/proflipdf.html

Under development is Fantastic Battles. http://irregularwars.blogspot.com/2020/05/introducing-irregular-wars-fantastic.html

Both look interesting and written with mass battles in mind.

 

Get there fastest with the mostest and roll highest.

Mike

[Tony S]

@fairoaks

I’ll bow to your judgement on KoW. I’ve only ever read the historical version, and as I said it wasn’t my cup of tea. I do believe the current edition has changed quite a bit?

But when all is said and done, no matter the rules, playing with the “absolute friendliest” group is exactly what you want!

[fairoaks024]

@Tony S

agreed!

[craig cartmell]

Hi Ian,

For mass battle rules you could try One Page Rules: Age of Fantasy: https://onepagerules.com/portfolio/age-of-fantasy/

Easy to learn and core rules are free.

Cheers,
Craig

The Ministry of Gentlemanly Warfare

[Tim Snoddy]

In my opinion Oathmark is a way better rule set than Dragon Rampant.  Dragon Rampant covers exactly the same size of battles as Oathmark, mass skirmish with a few hundred combatants.  Dragon Rampant has a major split personality, at times it appears to want to be a skirmish game and at others a mass battle game where as Oathmark knows exactly what it wants to be and is written accordingly.

[ian pillay]

One Page Rules are well worth a look. The basic rules are free and they are easy to understand and play well.

Tally-Ho! Check out my blog at…..
http://steelcitywargaming.wordpress.com/

[Thaddeus Blanchette]

If you want a DBA type system that is not written in Bakerese, is much more flexible and has a decent fantasy variant under development, you can try Triumph! by the Washington Brand Company. I find it to be much better than DBA and much easier to adapt to fantasy play.

Let me second the Hail Caesar fantasy variant. Warmaster is nice, but Hail Caesar is its descendent and it gives you a better feel for pregunpowder tactics, in my opinion, as Warmaster often results in battles that are far too swirling. Of course, that might be proper for heroic fantasy!

 

As for figures, let me suggest that 3mm is now a viable option.

We get slapped around, but we have a good time!

[Nic Wright]

Hi Ian,

We’re currently in the playtesting phase of a fantasy version of Irregular Wars called Fantastic Battles which I’m looking to have ready for release later in the year.

The central tenets of Irregular Wars: Fantastic Battles are:
*Engaging rules. The rules need to keep both players engaged at all times with randomised initiative and play passing quickly between players.
*Command friction and fog of war. The rules need to limit the omnipotent control a warlord has over their army and the battlefield conditions.
*Setting agnostic. The game must be applicable to any fantasy (or even pseudo-historical) settings.
*Flexible army building. As a game of fantasy battles, why accept restrictions on your fantasy? A flexible army building system allows players to create armies to their own tastes.
*Scale agnostic using multi-based figures. All measurements are expressed in distance units (u), where 1u is the width of one company base. Any size bases are possible, as long as all companies are based in the same way.
*No individual figure removal. All units have a footprint and are represented on the table as a complete unit. When a unit loses its resolve to fight, it is removed from the table in its entirety.

More information and photos are available HERE on the blog.

http://irregularwars.blogspot.co.uk/

[Mr. Average]

If nothing else One Page Rules are a nice read and can help frame ideas for other systems. I do wish the full/advanced rulebooks weren’t Patreon lockups – as much as I like to help gamers I can’t commit to an indefinite subscription to get a set of rules. That part bugs me I won’t lie.

[Who Asked This Joker]

Oathmark can use 20 man regiments and you can have as may as 300 figures per side on the table if you like.

If you really like Hail Caesar, there is a fantasy adaptation here.

As mentioned above, chainmail can still be had for $5 at Wargame Vault.

John

"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."

--Abraham Lincoln

[IanKH]

Well… Thanks for all of your replies. I honestly didn’t expect to get so much advice. I’d thank you all individually but I’m a bit overwhelmed.

I’m aware of the Hail Caesar variant and I’ve been offered a game by the author when we can get back to gaming. KoW… I’m not sure.I have a friend who champions them but I’m not sold.

Nic Wright… I like your ideas. Especially the freedom of army building. My own army is an pretty unusual mix.

Craig Cartmell – I’m having a look at your Age of Fantasy right now.

 

Cheers All and thanks.

[Nic Wright]

Ian, if you’d like any more information, drop me a message through the contact form on the blog. Then I can email you directly.

I did see the comment you left, but comments don’t allow me to email you. 🙂

http://irregularwars.blogspot.co.uk/

[Sane Max]

Very interested by that Hail Caesar Fantasy variant, thanks for pointing that out. Add me to the list of people for who KOW is not their cup of tea. That said, I have not played the fantasy version, and the things I disliked about KOW is that it felt too much like a fantasy game. Elephants are Dragons without wings 🙂 so maybe the fantasy game will be better?

I was inspired to recondition my Skaven by Dragon Rampant, but a mass-battle system it ain’t.

[IanKH]

Nic Wright wrote:

Ian, if you’d like any more information, drop me a message through the contact form on the blog. Then I can email you directly. I did see the comment you left, but comments don’t allow me to email you. 🙂

 

Thanks Nic. I sent a message via your blog using the message thing on the side.

Cheers,

IanKH

[venusboys3]

Andrew Beasley wrote:

Chipco Fantasy Rules! (note the exclamation mark) also known as FR!3 (ver 3 basically) are good for up to 50-60 figures (may be a bit small) and you can get a couple of battles and Pizza in an afternoon.

FR!3 is what I’ve been working with for 6mm fantasy. Base size is the measure so I just cram on whatever number of figures seems right.

I’ve also been wanting to have a look at the fantasy version of Sword & Spear, most of what I know is limited to the historical version but it favors larger games.

[Nic Wright]

IanKH wrote:

Thanks Nic. I sent a message via your blog using the message thing on the side. Cheers, IanKH

 

Ian, I haven’t received anything through the blog. Please try irregularwars (at) gmail (dot) com.

 

 

http://irregularwars.blogspot.co.uk/

[bobm]

There’s Lords and Lands by Craig Armstrong.  Written for large battles.  Play pretty quick (I’ve only observed games so far).  He’s a very pleasant guy who quickly answers any queries you might have.

There's 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.....

[Mark Lewis]

Tim Snoddy wrote:

In my opinion Oathmark is a way better rule set than Dragon Rampant. Dragon Rampant covers exactly the same size of battles as Oathmark, mass skirmish with a few hundred combatants. Dragon Rampant has a major split personality, at times it appears to want to be a skirmish game and at others a mass battle game where as Oathmark knows exactly what it wants to be and is written accordingly.

That’s funny because I think the same thing applies to Oathmark. It is described by the publisher as a mass battle game but the battle reports I’ve seen seem to be large skirmishes, there is figure removal and units seem to sometimes fight to the last man.

[Mark Lewis]

IanKH wrote:

I’ve returned to fantasy wargaming after a long, long sabbatical. My previous fantasy wargaming involved Chainmail and AD&D other than that my main wargaming has been Napoleonics, ECW, ancients etc…

What options are there and what is being played? What I’d like is something more akin to Hail Caesar. Lots of regiments and big battles with the freedom to create huge armies. Any ideas?

venusboys3 wrote:

I’ve also been wanting to have a look at the fantasy version of Sword & Spear, most of what I know is limited to the historical version but it favors larger games.

Sword and Spear Fantasy is definitely a mass battle game, as one unit (of humanoid infantry types) represents around 1000 combatants. It is based on Sword and Spear ancient & medieval rules so is ideal for people who want their fantasy battles to feel “realistic”.

Here are some pictures from a big game in 28mm, Orcs vs Humans:

And some from the Battle of Five Armies (from The Hobbit) in 15mm:

[Mike]

I like that corner piece and the river that comes from the waterfall.

[Tim Snoddy]

Mark Lewis wrote:

Tim Snoddy wrote:

In my opinion Oathmark is a way better rule set than Dragon Rampant. Dragon Rampant covers exactly the same size of battles as Oathmark, mass skirmish with a few hundred combatants. Dragon Rampant has a major split personality, at times it appears to want to be a skirmish game and at others a mass battle game where as Oathmark knows exactly what it wants to be and is written accordingly.

That’s funny because I think the same thing applies to Oathmark. It is described by the publisher as a mass battle game but the battle reports I’ve seen seem to be large skirmishes, there is figure removal and units seem to sometimes fight to the last man.

Yes, the advertising for Oathmark is “funny” describing it as a mass battle game, I can totally see how you would find it confusing if you have not played.  I think it is described by the publishers as mass battle to distinguish it from the numerous skirmish games involving a handful of figures on the the market but yes you are right it covers mass skirmish or as you put it large skirmishes rather than mass battles.  The difference between it and Dragon Rampant is that Oathmark knows what scale of battle it is covering and the rules are written with that in mind.  You can easily avoid single figure removal by using markers or dice to show casualties.  Fighting to the last man is possible but not probable except for units with very high stats and for those types of units would seem reasonable to me.

[Tim Snoddy]

Sword and Spear fantasy is a fantastic game but for me has a couple of game breaking flaws.  I was a huge fan for a couple of years.  It is actually a better game than the historical rule set it came from as fantasy traits allow better differentiation between units types.  It uses a dice draw system for activation (every unit fielded contributing one die to the bag) and there is more tactics involved in one round of dice allocation than in the entirety of some fantasy rules I have played.  Units are activated from both sides in order of the lowest dice placed so better quality units tend to activate first.  So you often found yourself answering questions like should I activate this unit with the highest dice possible or a lower die to get a quicker activation  before a nearby enemy?  Dice can be stacked to give a bonus or aid defence.  What made me fall out of love with it?  The points system is iffy, the rules get a bit hazy in places.  The deal breaker for me was the game breaking mass of tat ploy.  You could field a load of low cost units never intending to fight with them and use their dice to make your other units fight much better than they normally would.  I house ruled some limits on that.  A lot to enjoy in the game.

[IanKH]

Mark Lewis & Tim Snoddy,

I’ve played Sword & Spear several times and I do like the game but I’ve not heard of the fantasy version. Thanks for bringing me up to speed. I’ll have to have a look at it.

Cheers.

[Nic Wright]

There is another Fantastic Battles battle report up on my blog for those interested in seeing a game.

Across the parched plain, the mindless hordes of the liche-king shambled forward, keen to add to their number with the countless corpses of their goblin foes. This week’s game of Fantastic Battles. saw a completely undead army for the first time, pitted against the brave boyz in green.

https://irregularwars.blogspot.com/2020/07/fantastic-battles-battle-of-bonefields.html?fbclid=IwAR3qgfYpXi0QcWiBUrQlS75tPcVKbonNmUMqyESHt2-fw0NIwQgEPCTh28o

http://irregularwars.blogspot.co.uk/

[Darkest Star Games]

That sounds like a great game.  Love the Evil Tree, creepy looking thing, might have escaped from my neighbors back yard…

"I saw this in a cartoon once, but I'm pretty sure I can do it..."

[Mr. Average]

I’m actually presently rediscovering Warhammer Fantasy Battles, Third Edition. It has a level of flexibility not seen since in a Games Workshop product, and although I’ve seen a great deal of concern over its age and “clunky” mechanics I’m actually finding it pretty accessible.

[Mike]

Mr. Average wrote:

I’m actually presently rediscovering Warhammer Fantasy Battles, Third Edition. It has a level of flexibility not seen since in a Games Workshop product, and although I’ve seen a great deal of concern over its age and “clunky” mechanics I’m actually finding it pretty accessible.

I assume clunky as in the buckets of dice and excessive rolls?
Roll to hit, roll to see if the hit causes damage, then roll to see if no damage was caused after all as the armour saved you?
Always seemed odd to roll to damage, why are you using a weapon that can’t harm the enemy?
But anyway, it is a lot of dice rolling, but non of it is difficult to fathom, just lengthy or ‘clunky’ ?

[Mr. Average]

Yeah, that’s what I mean. I guess I have a higher tolerance for that as a back-and-forth since it’s meant to feel like you’re righting back, not just standing and taking your licks while the enemy swings at you. I was raised on complicated mechanics so I’m finding it nostalgic – a few games of it might make it wear thin though.

[Phil Dutré]

Mr. Average wrote:

I’m actually presently rediscovering Warhammer Fantasy Battles, Third Edition. It has a level of flexibility not seen since in a Games Workshop product, and although I’ve seen a great deal of concern over its age and “clunky” mechanics I’m actually finding it pretty accessible.

Of course. Does anyone think otherwise? 🙂

Tiny Tin Men Blog: http://snv-ttm.blogspot.com/
Wargaming Mechanics Blog: http://wargaming-mechanics.blogspot.com/

[Phil Dutré]

I think the main attraction of WFB3 has always been that it was in the sweet spot in time between the overemphasis on formulaic army lists in later editions, and the freeform – almost roleplaying –  aspects of former editions. It has the “old school” ethos w.r.t. fantasy wargaming. Later editions never really captured that same spirit.

Tiny Tin Men Blog: http://snv-ttm.blogspot.com/
Wargaming Mechanics Blog: http://wargaming-mechanics.blogspot.com/

[Author]

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