Burning Sands

[Alexander Wasberg]

Darkest Star Games wrote:

I’d like to see armor make a difference, maybe as an advanced rule. Perhaps light armor may add +1 to your defense roll, and heavy adds +2 (but maybe slows you?).

Perhaps some armor are more effective against certain weapons? Advantageous and disadvantageous ground? (fighting from higher up, or knocked prone)

This sounds like something worth exploring, I also like the idea of an expanded bestiary and divine/demonic cults with attendant bonuses/abilities.

I would add to the list a few tables of pre-generated treasures. While it’s possible to come up with stuff on your own, it’s often easier and more balanced to have a few lists of weapons, armors, rings, belts etc. that the heroes and villains can fight over/with.

It also allow for a nice nugget of lore to spin an adventure around. You roll for an item that the villains would possess and that gives you a good place to start chosing the foes and why our heroes would seek them out: e.g.

“The ring of shadows, a band of unearthly metal darker than the moonless night, have long been sought by the cult of assassins known as The Sons of Night. Whispers in the taverns and black markets of the city states is that they have finally found it and with this artifact they will become true terrors of the night.”

Just an idea, that sort of thing always gives me a bit of help when crafting adventures.

http://lasersandbroadswords.blogspot.com My project blog

[Angel Barracks]

Working on some advanced fighting rules, which method do you prefer for armour:

One: If you lose a round of Hand To Hand you may choose to add the level of your armour to your total. If this means you now have the higher total, you don’t do damage to the opponent as normal, but rather you instead take no damage.

Two: If you lose a round of Hand To Hand you may still avoid injury thanks to your armour, make a saving throw based on the armours level. If you pass you take no damage.

PLEASE BE AWARE this is not the actual wording, but my ramblings to get the two methods across and see which you prefer.
Myself I like the saving throw version, always more fun I find to try and roll your way out of danger than just know due to the maths.

[Angel Barracks]

hmmmm having said that, the non saving throw method allows more grades of armour and less system breaking…

[Alexander Wasberg]

I would tend to agree with you, the first option is easier, can be scaled easily enough and doesn’t require any additional dice rolling.

http://lasersandbroadswords.blogspot.com My project blog

[cmnash]

Alexander Wasberg wrote:

I would tend to agree with you, the first option is easier, can be scaled easily enough and doesn’t require any additional dice rolling.

I agree

.

[Angel Barracks]

question for you peeps.

I am worried the stackable modifiers are too high.

The idea behind armour is that if you lose a round of HTH, or are hit by a missile attack, you can hope that your armour saves you.

As with the Sword and Shield style, if you lose a round of HTH you may add your armour bonus to your total.
If by doing so you now win, you of course do not take a point of damage, however, neither does your opponent.

What do you feel the maximum mod should be?
It would be achieved by having heavy armour and a shield.
I am worried that normal P2 villains fighting other P2 villains could end up fighting forever if fully kitted out..
+4 seems like the limit to me?  (+5 would make the rules easier, but would a mod of +5 when rolling 2d6 be too much?)
To be fair, heavy armour and shields would be rare..

below is an extract from the new rules.

—— ————————— ————————— ———————— ———————–

Sword and shield can be used by anyone.
When using this technique if you lose a round of HTH you may choose to add 2 to your total.
If by doing so you now win, you of course do not take a point of damage, however, neither does your opponent.
You have hidden behind the shield and used that to prevent any nasty hurts.
Please be aware that as per the main rulebook, shield users also get a bonus against missile attacks

There are three classes of armour, Light, Medium and Heavy.

Light armour grants +1 to your total
Medium armour grants +2 to your total
Heavy armour grants +3 to your total

 

If 5 seems too much I would reduce the shield to 1 from 2.
But that seems a bit low for a shield?

Thoughts peeps?

[cmnash]

I would suggest that a shield adds +2 if used by itself and +1 if used with other armour – after all, the armour on the left arm is covered by the shield

.

[Angel Barracks]

cmnash wrote:

I would suggest that a shield adds +2 if used by itself and +1 if used with other armour – after all, the armour on the left arm is covered by the shield

 

[cmnash]

cmnash wrote:

I would suggest that a shield adds +2 if used by itself and +1 if used with other armour – after all, the armour on the left arm is covered by the shield

Actually upon reflection, that makes a shield on its own ( +2) just as protective as light armour and shield ( +1 & +1 = +2 )

So what’s the point of light armour?  I guess it gives you some protection when using a 2-handed weapon – greatsword, greataxe, bow, crossbow, etc …

And if you are introducing rules for surprise/ambush then you’d still have the armour protection, but not necessarily the shield … as you would if attacked from the rear

.

[Mike]

cmnash wrote:

So what’s the point of light armour?  I guess it gives you some protection when using a 2-handed weapon – greatsword, greataxe, bow, crossbow, etc …

or two swords…

But also, ignoring the mechanics, some cultures/situations would make a shield unlikely.

[Darkest Star Games]

I’d go with shields being +2.  BUT, also go with wear and tear, meaning any time you take a wound (your armor having not stopped the hit) your armor also degrades by a level.  So that heavy armor gets penetrated and now it’s only at a +2.  This give a reason to loot bodies and also to try to make money: to replace used and worn equipment.  Also gets those P2 NPCs fighting each other a little bit of advantage/disadvantage in the rolls.

Also, heavy armor should slow down the wearer.  Encumbrance and all… also helps those not wearing armor run away if needs be!

I know it’s “just one more thing to track”, but I think it might add some play value.

"I saw this in a cartoon once, but I'm pretty sure I can do it..."

[Darkest Star Games]

The more I think about the armor degradation the more I like the idea.  It allows you to have specials to weapons, like let’s say 2-handed swords or axes that can count any armor as 1 level lower or something like that.  Also different arrow types that need to be designated at the start of the game, like armor-piercing arrows count armor as 1 level lower but you must beat the enemy by a score of 2 to cause a wound, while maybe barbed/tearing arrows count armor as 1 or 2 levels higher but cause 2 wounds on a penetration/hit.  (or maybe 1 wound per score point higher than the enemy…)

"I saw this in a cartoon once, but I'm pretty sure I can do it..."

[Mike]

Sounds like a house rule or two.
Too much level of detail for what Burning Sands is about.
BUT… if that is what you want to do in your games, then by CROM!!! you do eeeeet.
Do eeeet now.

[Angel Barracks]

or…  shields grant +2 vs missile attacks as per the main rules.
But when in HTH they reduce damage from a critical hit down to just 1.

Can’t have that and the +2/+1 modifier though, that would be like power armour!!

Someone in chain with a shield may choose to add 2 to their roll and criticals don’t do extra damage.
or
Someone in chain with a shield may choose to add 3 to their roll.

?

Hmmm maybe you could have it so shields add +1 and the critical thing, but not +2, ever?

[cmnash]

I don’t think you should reduce the critical damage, tbh – that’s a nice rule as is.

Keep shields as +2 vs missiles and make them +1 in melee – removes the condition I suggested and it’s easier to remember. Also, I don’t think that you should change something in the core rules in an expansion … it’s for expanding rules, not changing them?

You were talking about light, medium & heavy armour, but now you refer to chain?

.

[Mike]

Do you all think +1 is enough for a shield when rolling 2d6?

The expansion will give examples of light, medium and heavy.
Chain is such an example, though to be fair chain can be medium and light!

ha ha ha ha sigh..

[Angel Barracks]

I think I may have to go with shields give +2
Then drop an armour level and go with light and heavy. +1 and +2.
That keeps the shields as useful and the mods at +4 max.

[Darkest Star Games]

Angel Barracks wrote:

That keeps the shields as useful and the mods at +4 max.

I think that works quite handily.

"I saw this in a cartoon once, but I'm pretty sure I can do it..."

[Slorm Chaplain]

I like this armour system, but what happens if the soldier didn’t have vitality pool points? Will be the armour futile too?

 

[Mike]

Good question.

I think that if you have no available vitality with which to move then even armour will not be that effective. But still better than nothing.

So with that in mind. For armour that is worn you can add the armour value to 0.

So someone in light armour with no available vitality effectively rolls a 1.

Not great but against a normal civilian it could save them.

Heavy armour would grant them a 2. Again pretty bad but it could save them.

[Darkest Star Games]

First rule of Burning Sands Club: never run out of Vitality!  (active or otherwise!)

"I saw this in a cartoon once, but I'm pretty sure I can do it..."

[Slorm Chaplain]

What about differentiate two types of shield, big shield +2 and small shield +1. Bear Big shield and Heavy Armour will give you a fantastic +4, but for example… reduce your movement capacity into -3, you are overloaded.

 

[Darkest Star Games]

Heck, you could even put in there a buckler that gives +1 vs melee (both defense and attack) but no bonus vs arrows.

"I saw this in a cartoon once, but I'm pretty sure I can do it..."

[Alexander Wasberg]

A +4 bonus should definitely be the maximum, given that it’s more or less worth the same as an extra dice. I don’t know how much different equipment Burning sands really need, but being used to the tomes of arms and armor from D&D and other such sources, I personally don’t mind at all!

It’s a elegant solution, I’ll give it a try next game I run!

http://lasersandbroadswords.blogspot.com My project blog

[cmnash]

Darkest Star Games wrote:

Heck, you could even put in there a buckler that gives +1 vs melee (both defense and attack) but no bonus vs arrows.

Having done some sword & buckler fighting in medieval re-enactment, a buckler certainly should give a bonus to attack and defence.

A buckler really is a second weapon – one that’s much more easy to block with!

.

[Darkest Star Games]

cmnash wrote:

Having done some sword & buckler fighting in medieval re-enactment, a buckler certainly should give a bonus to attack and defence. A buckler really is a second weapon – one that’s much more easy to block with!

Ya, I’ve smacked a few dudes with one too.  Funny how most don’t ever see it coming and are dumbfounded when it arrives…  Shield bash: it’s a real thing!

"I saw this in a cartoon once, but I'm pretty sure I can do it..."

[Angel Barracks]

Alexander Wasberg wrote:

It’s a elegant solution, I’ll give it a try next game I run!

Cheers!

So the plan for the Chroniclers Companion thus far:

Three fighting styles (sword and shield we have seen)
Armour rules (seen some of it here)
New abilities
Bestiary
Campaign rules inc. new feature – Reputation / Legend
Scenario ideas

[Slorm Chaplain]

Very interesting, what about a difficult table giving examples to solve Witts actions?

[Angel Barracks]

Yeah, could do!

I am thinking about equipment as part of the campaign rules.
As well as earning XP you can get loot!!

At the start of each game, you can spend some of this coin to buy gear that may help you toward your goal.
So if you are going to break into some wizards tower to steal the heart of elephant man god thing, you can spend some of your gold to buy climbing gear.
Climbing gear reduces the movement penalty.

Things like that, or is that too far into RPG land?

[Slorm Chaplain]

I like that idea, what about something in tens, or similar, to about the microeconomical issues….

And about the examples of use of the skills:
Appraise – WITS
Balance – PROWESS
Bluff – WITS
Climb – PROWESS
Craft – WITS
Decipher Script – WITS
Diplomacy – WITS
Disable Device – WITS
Disguise – WITS
Forgery – PROWESS
Gather Information – WITS
Handle Animal – WITS or PROWESS if the animal is bigger than you
Heal – WITS
Hide – WITS
Intimidate – could be PROWESS or WITS if is brute force or psychological intimidation.
Jump – PROWESS
Knowledge – WITS
Listen – WITS
Move Silently – WITS
Open Lock – WITS
Perform – WITS, though it could be PROWESS if you’re juggling, or PROWESS if you’re a weightlifter
Ride – PROWESS
Search – WITS
Sleight of Hand – PROWESS
Spot – WITS
Survival – PROWESS to survive, and to hunt stuff.
Swim – PROWESS
Tumble – PROWESS

And about the difficulty examples something like this:

Easy (5) Climb a knotted rope
Average (10) Hear a loud approaching guard
Tough (15) Rig a wagon wheel to fall off
Challenging (20) Swim in stormy water
Formidable (25) Open a good lock
Heroic (30) Leap across a 30-foot chasm
Nearly Impossible (40) Track a squad of Orcs across hard ground after 24 hours of rainfall

Or something like this: 

What do you think?

[Angel Barracks]

That is more detail than I am looking for myself, no reason you can’t do that though.
Though some of those things are already covered, and some I feel don’t need rules, such as events that happen between games, hunting, smithing, survival etc.
The scenarios will have things like that in though specific tasks with assigned difficulties.

 

I like the chart idea, I did touch upon sample difficulties in the rules, but a chart makes it easier.

[Mike]

Slorm Chaplain wrote:

Easy (5) Climb a knotted rope
Average (10) Hear a loud approaching guard
Tough (15) Rig a wagon wheel to fall off
Challenging (20) Swim in stormy water
Formidable (25) Open a good lock
Heroic (30) Leap across a 30-foot chasm
Nearly Impossible (40) Track a squad of Orcs across hard ground after 24 hours of rainfall

This would not work at all, sorry.
So a normal civilian, P1, W1, V1.
With that list they would have to be very lucky to do your easy task (plus there are rules for climbing already), the average task would be impossible (plus there are rules for stealth already)
The heroic task is covered in the jumping rules.
Whilst an idea, it would not work with the rules as they are.

[cmnash]

The game balances on the edge between skirmish wargame and rpg-lite; as on the wargame vault product page:

Think of it as a sweet spot between an RPG and a tabletop skirmish game.

Introducing the list of D&D 3rd edition skills takes it too far towards an rpg, IMO.

Also, I don’t think that as a game definitely with an emphasis on ‘The Hero’, worrying about an equipment list isn’t necessary – that’s something that should be part of a scenario; if Erland is exploring a tomb, he’ll have the rope, torches, etc, that he needs, unless it’s dramatically convenient that he drops them all into a bottomless pit …

.

[Angel Barracks]

cmnash wrote:

Also, I don’t think that as a game definitely with an emphasis on ‘The Hero’, worrying about an equipment list isn’t necessary – that’s something that should be part of a scenario; if Erland is exploring a tomb, he’ll have the rope, torches, etc, that he needs, unless it’s dramatically convenient that he drops them all into a bottomless pit …

maybe save the loot for buffs?
Like a healing potion that has a one off use and costs gold.
Or a glass flask of yellow lotus that shatters when thrown and has an affect?

Not day to day things like rope and what not, but things that are a one off dice changer?

[cmnash]

Angel Barracks wrote:

maybe save the loot for buffs? Like a healing potion that has a one off use and costs gold. Or a glass flask of yellow lotus that shatters when thrown and has an affect? Not day to day things like rope and what not, but things that are a one off dice changer?

I think that would be the best bet, personally. Not necessarily one-offs perhaps; magic weapons are a common fantasy trope, but not so much in Howard’s stories … on reflection, I think one-offs is probably best

.

[Mike]

cmnash wrote:

but not so much in Howard’s stories

Indeed, only 2 spring immediately to mind.
The girdle he had in people of the black circle and of course Thoth Amon’s ring.

[Darkest Star Games]

Perhaps loot/coin can apply, aside from tangible assets like potions and gear, to gaining advantages for the next encounter?

For example (and I have no idea how the campaign rules are set up) I took 3 damage last game when I attacked some bandits that had successfully jumped a trader.  Upon freeing him and setting the bandits to flight he gave me X amount of loot as well as a payment to track down their camp and put them out of the raiding business.  After escorting the dude to town, I spent X on healing myself 2 point (perhaps there is a max per day?  Too RPGy?) and use some to purchase some info from the town stoolie.  Sounds like there are too many of them for me to attack alone, so I hire 1 guy to come with me as backup as well as spending some on some sort of distraction or advantage (game effect is that 1/4 of original enemy will not be present, and groups will only be of a max size of 3 individuals).  Game takes place that night or the following day.

So some things you might be able to do with money are:

purchase healing (some maximum per day)

hire help,

put it in a bank,

gamble,

spread it around (purchase fame/reputation or positive reactions),

purchase info,

purchase advantages for next game (like getting 1 full turn of actions before having to dice for initiative normally, or reducing the number of enemies, or a 1-time extra dice to a roll, or limiting the size of enemy groups, or allowing the first wound taken to not have effect, or reducing the enemies available Vitality by half for x amount of turns, or missile fire takes a penalty when aimed at our her for x amount of turns…)

Basically, intangibles that can represent the gods or fate or whatever smiling upon our hero.

"I saw this in a cartoon once, but I'm pretty sure I can do it..."

[Slorm Chaplain]

Attending to the wealth topic, the money isn’t an important topic in the game, so I would leave it like something abstract, something intangible. Our heroes are there to live epic adventures, not to find an administrative to do the accounts. In fact, I have played RPG were after the hero earn the money, was obligatory to wasted all his money, and the DM could give you some experience points if your explanation of the party was epic.

 

And you started the new adventure without money, and with just some trinket that you could have saved  from the hangover.

[Alexander Wasberg]

I would think that most “common adventuring gear” like torches and such can be assumed to be in the heroes possession, with special items or equipment being procured from a trader.

I agree with both cmnash and Mike in this regard, I like the idea of being able to have some important consumables and specialized equipment to help tip the scales. While the original Conan tales feature very few magical items, it’s not as uncommon in other S&S tales, so making accomodations for such items in the expanded rules might still be a good idea. I know that I personally would benefit from their inclusion and think it would be welcomed by others as well, but if it doesn’t fit with your vision I get that too 🙂

Darkest Star Games wrote:

Perhaps loot/coin can apply, aside from tangible assets like potions and gear, to gaining advantages for the next encounter?

I think this sounds like a good way to deal with loot. While finding items is grand, most bandits or other villains will have precious gems and/or coin too. Being able to buy some items or offer riches for advantage gives you a few options to enrich your game without going full RPG.

At the same time, I agree with Slorm’s sentiment. Keeping the money abstract helps by offering you choice while the game’s focus is on the important part, the adventures and heroes, not counting how many gold coins you need for upkeep, items etc. Leave that sort of dull task to the merchants and bean-counters, while our heroes focus on aquiring and spending said gold! 😉

http://lasersandbroadswords.blogspot.com My project blog

[Darkest Star Games]

Had a nice long post that vanished as I hit submit… oh well, here goes again:

Alexander Wasberg wrote:

At the same time, I agree with Slorm’s sentiment. Keeping the money abstract helps by offering you choice while the game’s focus is on the important part, the adventures and heroes, not counting how many gold coins you need for upkeep, items etc

I agree.  Maybe use a generic term like “wealth points” (or something less pretentious sounding) that are spent on non-standard things.  Such as:

Purchase a potion that will immediately heal 2VP for 6WP.

Need new light armor and shield after having escaped the Wizir’s dungeon?  That’ll be 10Wp because you are obviously an escapee.

How about some info on the Palace guard schedule?  2WP should get you  tips from the local street urchins.

Bride a servant girl to put a sleep potion in the Palace Guard’s food?  Probably as low as 8WP.

Getting a former bandit to talk about the location of a secret oasis to hide out in after the Palace break in could only cost you 7WP.

Sleeping at an Inn before the heist?  1WP should do it.

 

Maybe even be able to use WP to purchase skills?  Like maybe our her is a great sword swinger, but is heavyfooted.  Spending 30WP at The School Of Seven Bells gets him trained to be a sneak git.  Attributes would still cost XP though.  Maybe a 30WP to 1XP conversion rate?  Represents taking the time to study rare tomes or practice parrying with a grand master?

"I saw this in a cartoon once, but I'm pretty sure I can do it..."

[Author]

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