Home Forums Modern A Sh*tload of Saggers

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  • #58007

    As part of our on-going 3mm “build an army for twenty bucks” challenge, I am reacquainting myself with the Fist Full of TOWs system.

    Now let me say that this is a lovely system, as is, and I am certainly not going to cast any shade at it. If I had 40.00 bucks, I’d buy the PDF and I hope to do so, some day.

    But I find it kind of funny that Ty Beard considers this to be a fastplay system. In comparison with Command Decision, of course it is. And it has admirable granularity for a relatively simple system. But fast play, it is not, at least not compared to my definition of “fast play” which would be something like Steve Jackson’s <i>Ogre.</i>

    Pico Armor’s tagline is that playing with smaller minis let’s you play bigger games, and that is certainly true enough with FFoT. But FFoT is really optimized for a brigade-level battle. If you want to throw a division on the table, it’s going to be slow going.

    I’d personally like a less granular, simplified version of FFoTs that would let me put a division on the table and still get the game over in a few hours — just like you can do with <i>Ogre. </i>This means a radical simplification of the combat system.

    Right now, this is how combat works in FFoT:

    1) You throw a number of dice equal to your unit’s rate of fire.

    2) Your opponent throws saving dice if he’s in cover.

    3) You then throw a number of dice equal to penetration minus armor to see the result of your attack.

    4) If you don’t kill the target outright or completely miss it, your oppenent will generally have to roll against unit quality to see if his unit survives.

    The system is simple, but it’s buckets of dice and potentially four rolls per combat. This is not fast play.

    What I envision is a simpler system where one makes ONE roll to hit and determine damage and another for a quality save. One could even roll two different colored dice at once: one to give the hit result and another to immediately due the quality save, if necessary.

    Instead of upwards of ten dice, then, you roll a maximum of two. Instead of up to four rolls, a maximum of two.

    Penetration and armor ratings would be cut to about half of what they now are and a lot of the granularity of FFoT would be lost. However, you could put hundreds of models on the table and get a game done in an afternoon.

    I realize this is not everyone’s cup of tea: treadheads like their million and one different modifiers and such.

    But if I were to write up a quick play set of rules like this, would anyone be interested?

    I am thinking of calling it <i>A Sh*tload of Saggers.</i>

     

     

     

     

    We get slapped around, but we have a good time!

    #58010
    Russell Phillips
    Participant

    I’d certainly be interested. I like FFT, but I agree that it’s not a fast system.

    I like the suggested name, both as a play on FFT and because I live in Stoke on Trent, and saggers are an important part of the local history 🙂

    Military history author
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    #58013
    kyoteblue
    Participant

    I played FFoT 1 years ago and it is faster than CD. but I’m old now and FOW or Team Yankee work better for me.

    #58014
    Mr. Average
    Participant

    If I’m honest with myself, I feel like there’s a glut of fast-play systems going right now, and I personally am finding FFOT to be a fine compromise. On the other hand, I have access to larger game groups so if we wanted divisional play we’d set up in teams and play over several sessions, if necessary. I value the granularity of the system and scaling up of down doesn’t bother me very much.

    That said, it’ll be interesting to see what you come up with. It might be worth trying the system prior to tinkering too much though – it seems very structured and pulling threads might take it apart. The Commander System is more flexible for this kind of conversion I think.

    #58015

    I have played the old FFoT, and I think it is a fine system. Just the thing for a brigade on each side over the coffee table in 3mm. But I think it would be a handfull on a 6×4 with a division on each side, even with multiple players.

    I spent a couple of hours yesterday breaking down the system, statistically. It’s a rather linear progression when you come right down to it. I do think Beard underestimates the Soviets a bit.

    We get slapped around, but we have a good time!

    #58024

    The other working title is “A Metric F*ckton of Milans”. 🙂

    I went over the math again last night and it looks pretty solid to me: you can convert the whole buckets of dice system into a simple differential CRT.

    Yes, you lose some granularity, because everything has to be translated into fractions of 16%. But it is actually surprisingly little,  because FFoT is pretty radical in its effects: effectively, if you have -3 Pen versus Armor, you can’t hurt the enemy and it you have +5, it’s pretty much a guaranteed kill.

    What I am not sure this system can do is take into acccount the entire sweep of warfare from 1915 to 2015, as FFoT does. But if all you want to do is classic “Red Star / White Star”, up tp the introduction of advanced munitions and composite armors, it should work fine.

    So for an imagination rules set situated at the height of the Cold War, I think it would work very well and be much quicker than FFOW. Again, with the caveat that it will be Panzerblitz to FFoTs Advanced Squad Leader.

    We get slapped around, but we have a good time!

    #58038
    John D Salt
    Participant

    The other working title is “A Metric F*ckton of Milans”. 🙂

    I was hoping for “A fuckload of Fagots” or “A crapload of Kornets”.

    If anyone gets round to a version focusing on the heyday of BAOR, we might hope for “A vast number of Viglilants” or “A superfluity of Swingfires”.

    The sub-arctic extension to cover the Soviet invasion of Sweden could be “A buttload of Bills”.

    Then again, as the original isn’t alliterative, what about “A bundle of Fagots”?

    All the best,

    John.

    #58044

    “A Buttload of Bills”, huh? Sounds more like my life. As for a “Fuckload of Fagots”… Oh, honey. The straight lines you give. 😀

    We get slapped around, but we have a good time!

    #58054
    John D Salt
    Participant

    Oh, honey. The straight lines you give. 😀

    I prefer the term “feed line” as less heteronormative.

    Although looking more closely at your hat, perhaps you aren’t the banana man?

    All the best,

    John.

    #58061

    Oh, honey. The straight lines you give. 😀

    I prefer the term “feed line” as less heteronormative. Although looking more closely at your hat, perhaps you aren’t the banana man? All the best, John.

    Jeezis, kids these days. No one recognizes Sgt. Pepper.

    We get slapped around, but we have a good time!

    #58065
    bishnak
    Participant

    Dear Mr Fruity hat 🙂 You could actually reduce it to a single roll if you wanted to, by combining the to hit and damage/kill probabilities. It gets a bit “dicey” to figure all out if you are only using d6s (which is what I have done for my own armour rules), but it does work. I think some long time armour players find it weird to at least not have a to hit and effect rolls. But making reference sheets becomes pretty easy.

     

    Modern Spearhead does this. I posted a longer response on the PicoArmor War College forum.

    My personal view nowadays is not to modify rules sets (having done it a lot in the past). It always has unintended 2nd and 3rd order effects and screws up the system. You’re better off just picking the rules set that is closest to what you want, accept the few little things you might not be happy about, and play the rules as written. JMHO.

    cheers,

    bish

    bish
    http://tinytanks3mm.blogspot.com.au/

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