Home Forums Horse and Musket Napoleonic [Fr 1805] Men of ‘La Garde’ and Staff (Etat-Major).

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  • #171639
    Avatar photoOotKust
    Participant

    hi,

    Somewhere else I raised issues about specific officers seeking assistance for modelling the correct men and uniforms of various staff and ADC’s. This is because I’m modelling all my commands at 1:1 ratio.

    In the case of  ‘la Garde Imperiale’ it is not always clear where officers came from. One such was a very lightly documented Capitaine who was attached as ADC, though called an Orderly, to Mareschal Bessiéres. This is Capitaine Desmichels.  As my records grew I wasn’t always diligent in recording where information was sourced. I had a name, but no reference to a regiment.

    I asked and got a rather negative response that he couldn’t be found- Desmichel or Desmichels wasn’t clear. That set me on a search of my own books and articles and eventually I found the ultimate source [fingers crossed], in of all places Lachouques :Anatomy of Glory. There are 5 separate pages referencing him. A very young man of the Chasseurs á Cheval velites he was I think awarded both promotion to Capitaine and Officer LoH after Ulm; having led his squadron in the defeat and capture of over 1000 Austrian troops and many guns. This must have been the period when the regiment was in Napoleons bad books because they turfed some other troops out of bivouacs.

    Wikipedia provided more background on this: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Alexis_Desmichels and his later history in North Africa.

    Another source was the 1806 Almanach where his rank and award are listed.

    I suspect the translation that gave us “an Orderly” was in fact a mistranslation for a much more commonly used title, Officier d’ Ordanance- effectively a seconded resource attached to various personages for the transmission of reports, communications and ‘the post’. [Davout mentioned sending four such men, all dragoons, to the Major-General Berthiers’, General Staff for such reasons].

    So here I have a Chasseur officer to use as ADC with the Marshal. Whilst it may have been obvious, it’s nice to know who was and was not and where they were from.

    Bessiéres was Colonel-General of the Guard cavalry corps, and as such I was sure he’d have a mixture of men drawn from all his regiments despite his honouring the memory of the old ‘Guides of Italy’ by wearing the undress/ second dress uniform of the Chasseurs.

    I’ll add a pic of several models in due course. Another ADC officer is that on duty the day of Austerlitz- Major/ Chef d’ Escadron César de Laville, an officer from the old Piedmontaise Army [1st Chasseurs] of 1800 and attached to Bessiéres from near that date.

    In this case he was not an officer of any guard regiment and so I have created a suitable figure in a plain Guard Staff Officers surtout. He was awarded Chevalier LoH only in April 1805.

    Trust this is of at least a little interest to others,

    regards

    davew

    My Work in progress drafts-

    WIP Bessieres amd ADC 25mm Minifigs

    #172011
    Avatar photoOotKust
    Participant

    To continue, in my search for ‘uniqueness’ of personality figures for commands, the figure chosen for Capt. de Laville is a Minifigs BNC 28 Major General.

    He came suitably composed in coat with aiguilette to which I added in Milliput©, an epaulette on his left shoulder and a lead ‘medium’ plume on his chapeau, stolen from an infantry fusilier figure.

    The latter (plume), I tend these days to drill out and use a stainless steel dressmakers pin to create an approx. 2+mm spigot into the chapeau at whatever rake I feel looks effective. The location and ‘delicacy’ of these items in earlier work sometimes came a cropper when ‘in action’ [gaming], so I secure these now in first build of my characters.

    The generals lace on his chest is merely filled with several layers of paint and is sufficient I feel to give an impression of cloth, but not obvious detail. I realise this is heresy to some, demeaning a Brit general and all…

    Most often my ADCs have been constructed using the quite plain and adaptable Austrian generals and ADCs of the range to reasonable effect! IMHO of course.

    As an exanple, here’s my veteran GDV Legrand [commander of Soults 3rd Division] and his three ADCs- two normal Minfigs French in full dress uniforms; and a plainer one made from an Austrian figure with plain unlaced schabraque, making him Legrands son.

    GDV Legrand command base

    cheers

    #172215
    Avatar photoOotKust
    Participant

    Back to ADC Capt. Laville of Bessierés command, here’s a recent photo from the earlier ‘WIP’ draft version posted above. That was July 2021, since then we’ve made progress to the ‘95%’ complete stage. Which I’ve explained on the Flickr blurb (two pix):-

    IMG_5906_sm WIP Marshal Bessieres and Capt. Laville (ADC)by DaveW[/url], on Flickr.

    Suffice to say I’m happy with Laville, given we know nothing much about him, but clearly his dedication to Bessierés was total. Other personalities as cited are progressing or at the same stage, but I wanted to show progress even if it is slow and piecemeal.

    Regards davew

    #179138
    Avatar photoOotKust
    Participant

    I thought I’d posted this before… Another of those, hmmmm, moments…

    https://www.frenchempire.net/biographies/dorsenne/

    In doing a command for the premiere unit, Les Grenadiers de la Garde Imperiale, one  Major-Col Dorsenne was an experienced officer and much valued.

    In ‘my’ command bases I include the actual ADCs, despite this being notionally a ‘regimental’ command, nevertheless they were Generals in the Garde.

    Cited as-

    Sous Lieut Dorsenne  Ofc [LOH]

    Sous Lieut Germanouski Ofc  [LOH]

    *(Source 1806 Almanach_dw)

    A problem exists in that he has no children recorded, and only married in 1808.

    I’ve trawled both military, Lenoire and genealogy sites to no avail.

    Anyone have a source of clarification about who the ‘younger’ Dorsenne may be? And how could an Almanach be wrong? Quelle horreur!

    This command base is being developed along with a probable launch of the regiments second battalion later on…

    regards davew

    #179147
    Avatar photoNot Connard Sage
    Participant

    https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Marie_Pierre_Dorsenne

    https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Biographie_des_c%C3%A9l%C3%A9brit%C3%A9s_militaires_des_arm%C3%A9es_de_terre_et_de_mer_de_1789_%C3%A0_1850/D#DORSENNE_(JEAN-MARIE-FRAN%C3%87OIS_LEPAIGE,_comte)

    He was chef de brigade at 27, and dead at 39

    I reckon your almanac is wrong.

    Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

    #179158
    Avatar photoOotKust
    Participant

    He was chef de brigade at 27, and dead at 39 I reckon your almanac is wrong.

    Indeed- chef de brigade = Colonel 1803.

    The official Empire Government issued Almanach wrong- blimey!

    thanks dave

    #179873
    Avatar photoOotKust
    Participant

    Another mystery- can anyone place or provide a reference for the death of:-

    Lieutenant Jacquelot : 2.12.1805 à Austerlitz – an officer of the Marins de la Garde?

    One of only four of their officers killed in battle under Napoleons Empire.

    As one ‘équipage’ left Boulogne to join the Grande Armeé in eastern Europe, I have a unit destined for my future. Their role was to augment the crews and workmen on boats and courses; aiding pontoners and any other ‘river’ related activity with their expertise.

    As they are not mentioned at Austerlitz anywhere I’ve read, perhaps French reference may give an indication?

    Many thanks,

    dave

    #179874
    Avatar photoNot Connard Sage
    Participant

    Was he ‘mort au combat‘? He could have fallen off a pontoon and drowned.

    The Napoleon Series has them at Austerlitz. The bibliography might produce more information.

    https://www.napoleon-series.org/military-info/organization/frenchguard/c_guardmarins.html

     

    Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

    #179875
    Avatar photoGuy Farrish
    Participant

    He is indeed in the ‘Tableaux, par corps et par batailles, des officiers tués et blessés pendant les guerres de l’Empire (1805-1815)’ / par A. Martinien p.109

    ‘Jacquelot, lt., T. 2 déc. 1805, bataille d’Austerlitz.’

    (the T is for tué, not his initial)

    Officers killed and wounded in the Wars of the Empire

    (note this is a secondary source pub 1899, not a primary source.)

     

    A party of Marins de la Garde (perhaps 120) apparently went with the Grande Armée to Ulm and Austerlitz. They assisted with moving food, ammunition and artillery by river but did not take part in the battle (no primary sources quoted or that I can find in a quick search).

    edit – nb the last para is from my general reading  not from the ‘Tableaux’.

    #179883
    Avatar photoOotKust
    Participant

    Was he ‘mort au combat‘? He could have fallen off a pontoon and drowned.

    Thanks, I apprecite the honest intent. However I’m sure we all know that there were no bateaux, nor even navigable waterways “pres d’Austerlitz”. It was a deep bank streamed, boggy swamp edged, settlement ponds terrain, at least partly frozen over along the Goldbach and Littawa.

    So the question remains, unanswered. As to N-S accuracy, it is not! With all due respect to Tony Broughton, he doesn’t even get the facts right from the start.
    >> 30 fructidor an XI (17 Sept. 1803), est créé le Bataillon des Matelots de la Garde Consulaire, constitué de 5 équipages, totalisant 337 hommes, officiers et trompettes compris.<<

    Not formed in 1804. That and the similar train of articles are useful I agree, but compound the errors left unedited/ uncorrected on-line is a grievance; and the limited names given.

     “He is indeed in the ‘Tableaux, par corps et par batailles…”

    and for which I thank you Guy. I tend to jump straight to pdfs looking for such things- yet I did not have these in my collection!- and a hard copy is in my library! I had the ‘supplément’ published 1909 though. Seems Volume Two isn’t available in pdf via Gallica?

    My notes and sadly I had failed to record the source of their history cites:

    -20 juillet 1805 réduction à 818 hommes.

    -15 septembre 1805, 120 hommes partent de boulogne pour rejoindre l’Armée d’Allemagne.

    So roughly an ‘équipage’ as formed- constitué de 5 équipages.

    I am considering, though not listed that I can see, that he may have been in attendance as an aide or officier hors-suite to the Garde or E-M-Generale. Perhaps even a Generals temporary ADC.

    Pity the poor man getting killed so far inland, and not even commanding his own troops!

    https://tablasmartinien.es/ might be useful otherwise (ie Spain), but man a tangled web of links and tables just overwhelms me there! Meaning I can’t find a thing… sometimes you just want to trace someone thoroughly across their active service.

    Many thanks for the input, regards dave

    #179891
    Avatar photoNot Connard Sage
    Participant

    *sigh*, no good deed goes unpunished.

    Thanks, I apprecite the honest intent. However I’m sure we all know that there were no bateaux, nor even navigable waterways “pres d’Austerlitz”. It was a deep bank streamed, boggy swamp edged, settlement ponds terrain, at least partly frozen over along the Goldbach and Littawa.

    Off the cuff remark  I could have written ‘died falling off a wagon’, but I didn’t. There’s this thing called ‘humour’…

    So the question remains, unanswered. As to N-S accuracy, it is not! With all due respect to Tony Broughton, he doesn’t even get the facts right from the start.

    I made no claims for the accuracy of Napoleon Series and/or Tony Broughton. An idle Googling threw that page up. I did say that the bibliography in the article might give better results, as Guy proved when he found one of the books mentioned and posted the information therein above.

    We are not professional military historians. Many of us are not even dilettante military historians.  Most of us, I suggest, are not much interested in the fates of junior officers 0f the Marins de la Garde, but in the spirit of co-operation, we throw out what snippets of information we can glean. Well I’ve learned that lesson, I shall contribute no more to your posts. I would hate to offend you further with my unprofessionalism in the field of obscure military history ‘research’.

    I will offer a final piece of advice;

    Lighten up. You’ll get far more out of TWW if you don’t approach every well meant offer of help with the graceless and dismissive questioning attitude of an Oxbridge professor to the offerings of a first year student. You are not an Oxbridge professor, and I graduated a long, long time ago.

     

    Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

    #179960
    Avatar photoOotKust
    Participant

    thanks- certainly no criticism of you supplying information; just of the source that wasn’t itself up to snuff, and not your fault.
    No doubt the biblio’ could be helpful, but I’d passed over many already.

    Theres not a lot of specialist information made available, but some people have quirky interests in places, times or units. So I thought the ‘Marins de la Garde’ may have been one of those. Certainly hasn;t been in my ‘core’ theme until this snippet turned up. I multitask across a variety of ‘associated’ subjects like I suppose many do. In my haste I sometimes overlook the obvious.

    I don’t expect professional help here (and certainly cant afford any other kind) ~d

    #179979
    Avatar photoGuy Farrish
    Participant

    I didn’t know there was a volume 2 of ‘Tableaux’.

    There is the 1909 Supplement which is on BnF Gallica and which Hachette slightly misleadingly published under the full title of the Tableaux some years ago (but is only 196pp vice the 826pp of the 1899 work).

    I understand the propensity to get drawn into side alleys – see my rambling about cleaning mail elsewhere. Not sure how much you are going to find out about Lt Jacquelot.

    The Spanish interactive Martinien doesn’t appear to work for me – I can read the introduction, the objectives and results but the Mapa tab itself leads me to a page where none of the click links work. So not much help for me. The info seems to be a reordering of Martinien’s tableaux for locations in Spain which is interesting but I’m not sure how much help it’s going to be for getting more info into the activities and careers of officers. It may do depending what it links through to but they aren’t working for me. And when I try the databases – eg the Battles, I get an undefined array key 7 error and a list of other undefined array keys  instead of accessing the information itself.

    Good luck with your searches!

     

    #179993
    Avatar photoOotKust
    Participant

    I didn’t know there was a volume 2 of ‘Tableaux’.

    Of course you are probably right (spot on!). In my garbled mind I probably confuse/d G.Six and Martinien works and volumes and got it wrong. Although on p5 of latter, he writes:

    Un second volume,actuellementen préparation,comprendrales années’ 1816 à 1896. Il contiendra à peu près 25.000 noms ;…

    So perhaps that led me to think of another tome. I agree the ‘Supplement’ 1909 is the only second volume related.

    The Spanish interactive Martinien doesn’t appear to work for me …

    Yes I quite agree, same [lack of] results all round Guy. Whilst its clearly a valid effort to customise the data and make it accessible, you seem to need to be a programmer of depth to achieve anything.

    My attempts there, have simply been to validate information already recovered from other sources. Even a lot of French trivia falls into bland “served in despagne” type quotes without providing details of what, often, individuals did.

    >>Not sure how much you are going to find out about Lt Jacquelot.

    I’ll not pursue the matter further unless some ‘clues’ appear. I’ll look at the ‘Official History’ again as it contains many, many name references that bewildered me at first sighting. At least, it gives many instances of ‘leadership’ by junior staff ranks and quite a few of the non-combatant hangers on and foreigners present.

    Thanks for the input_ d

    #180110
    Avatar photoHeroy
    Participant

    Jean-Marie-Désiré Jacquelot (ou Jaquelot)
    — ~1800 aspirant de marine
    — IV.1803 promu enseigne de vaisseau en activité au port de Lorient
    — X.1803 passé enseigne de vaisseau, lieutenant de bataillon commandant du 5e escouade du 3e équipage du bataillon de matelots de la garde consulaire, à camp de Boulogne
    — VI.1804 fait membre de la Légion d’honneur
    — VIII.1804 au Havre
    — IX.1805 passé commandant du 4e escouade du 4e équipage

    In September 1805 the 4e équipage was ordered to Strasbourg and then Donauwörth, charged with conveying supplies for the guard on the Danube. They also directed boats supplying Mortier’s corps. They did not, as a unit, approach the battle of Austerltz. While it is possible that the enseigne Jacquelot happened to be delivering a report only to be killed by a random shot, the cause or circumstances of his death were not recorded in any history of the guard that I have found. His dossier at the Légion d’honneur was closed on 1 January 1806 with the notation “presumed dead”, perhaps indicating that his body had not been found. The marins reported 5 officers present under arms in late December, vs. 6 per the establishment for 1 équipage.
    On balance, I think that there might be some error in the Martinien listing.

    The archives might resolve the question.
    Archives de personnel de la marine à Vincennes – Cote MV CC 7 ALPHA 1219 – dossier individuel de Jacquelot Jean Marie Désiré

    Sources
    — Astrid Martinien – Tableaux par corps et par batailles des officiers tués et blessés
    — Émile Marco de Saint Hilaire – Histoire anecdotique, politique et militaire de la Garde impériale
    — Annuaire statistique, civil, maritime et commercial du département du Morbihan pour l’an XII
    — Almanach Impériale pour l’an XIII
    — Almanach Impériale pour l’an MDCCCVI
    — Eugène Lomier – Le bataillon de marins de la Garde 1803-1815
    — Fastes de la Légion d’honneur T. 5.
    — Frignet Despréaux – Le maréchal Mortier, duc de Trévise T.3
    — État général de la marine – an …. XII, XIII & 1806
    — George Nafziger – French Grande Armée 22 December 1805
    — Henry Lachouque – Napoléon et la garde impériale
    — Eugène Fieffé – Napoléon 1er et la garde impériale
    — Robert Goetz – 1805 Austerlitz : Napoleon and the Destruction of the Third Coalition

    #180112
    Avatar photoHeroy
    Participant

    If you are still interested ….

    Sous Lieut Dorsenne Ofc [LOH]

    Sous Lieut Germanouski Ofc [LOH]

    *(Source 1806 Almanach_dw) 

    I found your Sous Lieut Germanouski on page 75 of the 1806 Almanach impérial : membre de la Légion d’honneur, lieutenant en 2e aide de camp près du général de division Ordener (colonel commandant du régiment de grenadiers à cheval de la garde)

    But I could not find your “Sous Lieut Dorsenne“. To which page should I refer, please ?

    #180119
    Avatar photoOotKust
    Participant

    If you are still interested …. Sous Lieut Dorsenne Ofc [LOH] Sous Lieut Germanouski Ofc [LOH] *(Source 1806 Almanach_dw) I found your Sous Lieut Germanouski on page 75 of the 1806 Almanach impérial : membre de la Légion d’honneur, lieutenant en 2e aide de camp près du général de division Ordener (colonel commandant du régiment de grenadiers à cheval de la garde)

    Mon Cher M. Alexandre, I cannot express enough gratitude for the eloquent research and answers you have provided me. It is indeed a complex issue- no doubt made more difficult as I appear to have inadvertently contaminated information by copying errors- confusing these two great men (Dorsenne and Ordener) of La Garde.

    It is probable that I copied information from one source, but combined them incorrectly in my document guide for La Grandé Armée 1805. I note that E. Saint Hilaire in “Histoire anecdotique, politique et militaire de la Garde impériale…” cites different officers as ADCs (1809)  –

    CASTELLON, t aides-de-camp PAILHÈS * DORSENNE.

    Of course I was not trying to make the Marins de la garde ‘appear’ at Austerlitz, merely wishing, if such an individual appeared, to know the context. However, I think your assessment is correct, and “body not found” is likely to have ocaissioned with a boating or river mishap, than a stray bullet on the battlefield.

    I will likely still create an ‘equipage’ as technical troops, not fighting men, but for use in campaign scenarios, along with my current engineers and miners (genie), foot dragoon battalion, ingeneurs-geographic etc.

    My sincere thanks once again, regards davew

    #180150
    Avatar photoHeroy
    Participant

    There was at least one naval officer attached to the état-major général for the campaign of 1805, the capitaine de frégate Charles Lostanges. He was ordered in early November to arm and deploy a flotiila of small boats on the Danube. He may or may not have returned to be present with the staff of major-général Berthier at Austerlitz, but it is not impossible.

    ● Arnaud-Louis-Charles-Rose de Lostanges de Sainte Alvère (Versailles 1759 – Nice 1836)
    http://shenandoahdavis.canalblog.com/archives/2012/08/31/25003541.html
    https://www.leonore.archives-nationales.culture.gouv.fr/ui/notice/238105
    https://www.napoleon-histoire.com/correspondance-de-napoleon-novembre-1805/
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/Arnaud-Louis-Charles-Rose_de_Lostanges_%28Anonym_1829%29.jpg

    In case it may interest you, the 6 officers of the marins de la garde to make the campaign of 1805 were ….
    Dominique Roquebert (dit Roquebert le jeune) capitaine de frégate, capitaine de bataillon commandant le 4e équipage (Bayonne 1774 – sur “La Renommée” près de Foulpointe 1811)
    https://www.geneanet.org/media/public/dominique-0-roquebert-39616622
    Fleury-Dorothée Boniface lieutenant de vaisseau, lieutenant de bataillon du 2e équipage (Luneville 1780 – Cherbourg 1826)
    Jean-Baptiste Grivel (Grivelle) lieutenant de vaisseau, lieutenant de bataillon du 5e équipage (Brives en Corrèze 1778 – Brest 1869)
    Michel-Ange Rougeuil (Rougœil) enseigne de vaisseau, lieutenant de bataillon du 4e équipage (Île-de-France 1778 – Paris 1824)
    Jean-Marie-Désiré Jacquelot (Jaquelot) enseigne de vaisseau, lieutenant de bataillon du 3e équipage (Bretagne ? ~1780 – sur le Danube ? 1805)
    Jean-Baptiste Leroy (Le Roy) enseigne de vaisseau, lieutenant de bataillon du 1er équipage (Paris 1781 – Paris ? 1850)

    #180153
    Avatar photoOotKust
    Participant

    Thank you Alexandre, that is some extensive reading you’ve given me. I think I may need the Lebanese breakfast I was thinking of first!

    Interesting the number of ‘attachments’ to the EMG over time,

    __________

    Edit some hours later: Agreed I messed up badly- swapping data and names across the Guard.

    In 1805 (ANXIV) no ADC’s to the commanding generals are cited at all. And Dorsenne had not been appointed at the time of publication, which I think we know occurred very close to or within the Campaign proper.

    In 1806 they are :

    Messeurs Capitaines Buchet and Grabinski respectively. Dorsenne, now ‘on the books’, isn’t mentioned with ADCs even though he technically commanded the unit in Hulins absence (and would again in coming campaigns as Hulin remained Military Govenor of Berlin).

    For Ordener and the Grenadiers á Cheval, 1806 carries:

    I think I can see how I transposed data and confused myself- messd up royally!!!!

    thanks again

    davew

     

    #180181
    Avatar photoHeroy
    Participant

    The “1805” almanach was actually the An XIII almanach – the revolutionary year beginning 23 Septembre 1804. By internal evidence, I think the work was published in October 1804. The 1806 & 1807 Almanachs was indeed for the years indicated, the republican calendar having been abolished from 1 January 1806. By internal evidence, I think the work was published in February of the given year.

    For Dorsenne ….
    ● 23.V.1800 – promu chef de brigade provisoire de la 61e demi-brigade d’infanterie de ligne, confirmé le 5.VII.1802
    ● 3.III.1805 – passé major du régiment de grenadiers à pied de la garde
    ● 18.X.1805 – passé major-colonel de la brigade de grenadiers à pied de la garde
    ● 25.XII.1805 – promu général de brigade

    As a chef de brigade or colonel of the army Dorsenne was not entitled to any aides de camp.
    In the garde, the only aides de camp authorized in 1805 were 3 aides de camp each for the four maréchaux colonels-généraux (Davout, Soult, Mortier & Bessières) per the decree of 29 July 1804. These officers seem to have been entitled to additional aides de camp (as maréchaux, as généraux de division, as commadants d’un corps d’armée, etc.) and all of these entitlements seem to have consolidated with a doubling to a total of 24 aides de camp for the colonels-généraux per decree of 15 April 1806.

    It would appear that the aides de camp shown in the Almanachs An XIII, 1806 and 1807 for the generals Hulin and Dorsenne were assigned to them as generals in the army and were not officers of the garde. For Austerlitz, the général Hulin was in Vienne (with his aides de camp) and the colonel Dorsenne was not yet assigned any aides de camp. Like all colonels, he would have tapped trusted non-commissioned officers of his regiment to act as personal ordonnances.

    Upon being promoted to général de brigade, Dorsenne chose these aides de camp :
    ● capitaine Jean-François Castillon (from Dorsenne’s home town) : made a membre de la Légion d’honeur on 29 May 1806, paased aide de camp to Dorsenne on 4 October 1806 and promoted a capitaine dans la garde on 16 February 1807
    https://www.leonore.archives-nationales.culture.gouv.fr/ui/notice/69469
    ● lieutenant Antoine Pailhès (from Dorsenne’s old unit, the 61e de ligne) : became an aide de camp to Dorsenne on 4 October 1806, promoted a lieutenant en 1er dans la garde on 14 February 1807 and made a membre de la Légion d’honneur on 8 January 1809
    http://www2.culture.gouv.fr/LH/LH175/PG/FRDAFAN83_OL2035036V001.htm

    #180185
    Avatar photoOotKust
    Participant

    ● 25.XII.1805 – promu général de brigade

    Ahh ok, so that was post Austerlitz promotion. Academic but nonetheless warranted obviously. Thanks for clarifying this.

    Like all colonels, he would have tapped trusted non-commissioned officers of his regiment to act as personal ordonnances.

    Yes I alluded to such activity in an earlier post regarding Mal. Bessiéres- to whom I’ve given a very special veteran NCO, invalided but faithful servant.

    Thanks also for the ADC’s- whilst my criteria originally was for a single use ‘Austerlitz’ army, I’ve learned I should concede that the army is good for 1805-06-07 campaigns; and thus make better use of the numerous shako wearing figures I own…

    regards davew

    #181538
    Avatar photoOotKust
    Participant

    So concluding a short sejourn into ‘administration and staff’ planning I shall have an additional officer to place ‘pres de Major-General’ and a commander for my small escouade of ‘Marins’ de la Garde when I get through my other tasks, probably middle of next year.

    • the capitaine de frégate Charles Lostanges and
    • Jean-Marie-Désiré Jacquelot (Jaquelot) enseigne de vaisseau, lieutenant de bataillon du 3e équipage (Bretagne ? ~1780 – sur le Danube ? 1805).

    Back to the painting…

    Capit. Berge – ADC to GDV Songis* (WIP).
    *GDV et Insp.Gen d’Artillerie Songis des Courbons- Commandant of the Artillerie Legere de la Garde.

    cheers d

    #181540
    Avatar photoHeroy
    Participant

    Before you finish him, you might need another epaulette ….

    In 1805, the géneral de division Songis was the 1er inspecteur général de l’artillerie et commandant en chef de l’artillerie de la Grande armée. He was not a part of the garde impériale nor the maison militaire de l’Empereur.

    He had the regulation 3 aides-de-camp for a géneral de division en activité, but had arranged to have two chefs de bataillon / d’escadron instead of only one.

    — chef de bataillon (25.IV.1800) 1er aide-de-camp Jean-Pierre Doguereau, dit “l’aîné” (Orléans 1774 – La Fère 1826) : promu colonel à la suite de l’état-major de l’artillerie de la Grande armée (9.III.1806)
    — chef de bataillon (29.X.1803) aide-de-camp François-Beaudire Berge (Collioure, près de Perpignan 1779 – Paris 1832) : promu major du 5e régiment d’artillerie à cheval (21.III.1806)
    — capitaine (21.IX.1799) aide-de-camp Guillaume Durelle (Saint-Just-en-Chevalet, à l’ouest de Lyon 1767 – Saint-Just-en-Chevalet 1828) : promu chef de bataillon au 4e régiment d’artillerie à pied (11.VII.1807)

    In addition to the officers actually fighting the batteries and moving the pieces and munitions, there was a huge staff of artillery reporting to géneral de division Songis, including at least these officers ….
    — chef d’état-major de l’artillerie de la Grand armée : général de brigade Joseph-Marie de Pernety (plus 2 aides-de-camp, 1 sous-chef, 9 officiers adjoint)
    — général de brigade directeur-général de la grande parc d’artillerie Louis-Joseph-Auguste de Saint-Laurent (plus 2 aides-de-camp, 3 directeurs, 12 officiers adjoint)
    — général de brigade commandant la réserve d’artillerie Antoine-Alexandre Hanicque (plus 2 aides-de-camp, ? officiers adjoints)
    — in each corps and for the cavalerie de réserve : général commandant l’artillerie du corps (plus 2-3 aides de camp) & chef d’état-major de l’artillerie du corps (plus ~3 officers adjoints)
    — with each division : 1 chef de bataillon / d’escadron d’artillerie commandant de l’artillerie de la division (plus 1 officer adjoint)

    The artillery with the Guards was commanded separately.

    Sources ….
    — Base Leonore : https://www.leonore.archives-nationales.culture.gouv.fr/ui/notice/118367
    — Base Leonore : https://www.leonore.archives-nationales.culture.gouv.fr/ui/notice/28056
    — Base Leonore : https://www.leonore.archives-nationales.culture.gouv.fr/ui/notice/130617
    — Magimel (ed.) : État militaire du corps impérial de l’artillerie de France pour l’an XIII (1805)
    — Champeaux : État militaire d’empire français pour l’an XIII (1805)
    — Testu (ed.) : Almanach impérial pour l’an XIII (1805)
    — Picquet : Histoire des campagnes de l’empereur Napoléon dans la Bavière et l’Autriche en 1805 …. (1843)
    — Lievyns, Verdot & Régat : Fastes de la Légion d’honneur (T.5 -1847)
    — Six : Dictionnaire biographique des généraux et amiraux français de la Révolution et de l’Empire 1792-1814 (T.1 -1934)
    — Mairie de Saint-Just-en-Chevalet (ed.) : Minutes de l’étude de Saint-Just-en-Chevalet (No. 5E52, 2003)

    #181547
    Avatar photoOotKust
    Participant

    My thanks again!
    So much further detail than a brief battle- OB!
    I hand typed my ‘1805 Army’ OB 40 years ago (!) and added commands and complexities as I went (on computer post 1990). This included more and more of the ancilliary commanders that most gaming ignores.

    >>In 1805, the géneral de division Songis was the 1er inspecteur général de l’artillerie et commandant en chef de l’artillerie de la Grande armée. He was not a part of the garde impériale nor the maison militaire de l’Empereur.

    Which I understand and knew. However on the day it appears from my resources (right or wrongly) he was placed ‘in charge’ of the massed Garde artillerie corps, thus deserving a spot in my army.

    Two issues I have not resolved.

    • I have recreated two French companies only. However I have the Italian Royal Garde Infantry regiment already, so would possibly add the Italian company as well since they were actually present.
      I understand they eventually wore the French blue, with Italian cocarde. Is there any conflict of information?
    • The citation of ‘attached line regiments’ companies to la garde artillery. I saw no reference in any ‘Returns’ in my visit to SHD/SHAT nor have units been identified. As only ‘la garde’ is most and modestly mentioned toward the end of the battle, I feel it unlikely that any such ‘attached’ were legitimate artillery companies, but possibly only personnel or maybe train to commit as reserves for injured etc. Which as we know was minimal in the event anyway.

    I have two* line Divisional batteries, a Corps ‘Reserve’ 12 pounder battery and now finally several horse for the various Divisions I can field.
    *I used to have three but one was stolen from my collection.

    In case you wonder, I get satisfaction from representing units that others expect to see in a form that exceeds what mere games rules suggest. That is also why it has taken time and patience to both research and create them!

    Good and Safe holidays people, regards d

    #181611
    Avatar photoHeroy
    Participant

    “[Songis] was placed ‘in charge’ of the massed Garde artillerie corps”

    I would interested to see where that came from, as I could not find him in tactical direct command of any artillery sub-unit at Austerlitz, only all of the artillery of the whole army.

    The général de brigade Antoine-Alexandre Hanicque (1748-1821) is in some sources credited as “commandant la réserve d’artillerie” or “commandant l’artillerie de grand quartier-général”. However, the first could be a mis-reporting of his post held until late September : “commandant l’artillerie de la réserve de cavalerie”. The second is most simply interpreted as commander of all the many staff artillerists at the army headquarters.

    There was an artillery element in the battlefield reserve at Austerlitz : the three horse compagnies of the guards (2 French, 1 Italian), and the foot artillery of Oudinot’s division. Possibly this was Hanicque’s span of command, but one could easily doubt it.

    The 3 companies of guards light (i.e. horse) artillery were under the direct command of colonel Joseph-Christophe Couin, supported by his two adjudants. The company commanders were French chefs d’escadron Louis Doguereau (“le cadet” – younger brother of Songis’ aide-de-camp), Armand Digeon (“le beau”) and Joseph Greiner. The latter, recently promoted, seems to have led the Italians – with their own commander, capitano in primo Marco Raspi being left ill in Brünn. Italian scources like to report the excellent leadership of the deputy commander of the Italian company, tenente in primo Giuseppe Fortis.

    The guard train soldiers were all French (of which there were 4 companies in total) under capitaine Edme Devarenne. The Italian train company was thought to be un-needed by Napoléon in July, and they were sent into the Italian granatieri a piedi. They were reformed in Italy.

    There are reported two versions of the materiel for the guards artillery : each had either 2 **or** 4 8-lber cannons, 2 4-lber cannons and 2 6-inch howitzers, all of the Gribeauval designs – total 18 or 24 pieces for the three companies. The organization of 2+2+2 pieces had been ordered by Napoléon in July. But several (line) division’s artillery had been augmented with 2 “extra” 8-lbers by the time of the battle.

    Oudinot’s division seems to have had 8 pieces during the battle, under the command of chef d’escadron Basile de Baltus de Pouilly (dit “Balthus”) :

    — 1ere compagnie du 1er régiment d’artillerie à pied : 4 8-lber cannons and 2 4-lber cannons

    — détachement de la 5e compagnie du 5e régiment d’artillerie à pied : 2 8-lber cannons (a typical “augmentation”)

    For what it’s worth, Jean-Baptiste Barrès, then a young vélite in the chasseurs à pied, recalled in his memoirs seeing 24 pieces advancing in the intervals between battalions with the guards and Oudinot’s division toward the end of the battle.

    For completeness, in the grand parc de l’armée, not on the battlefield as far as I know, there were 12 12-lber cannons and 6 Austrian 3-lber cannon assigned to the 16e, 17e & 18e compagnies du 7e régiment d’artillerie à pied.

    ===============

    Here is the uniform for the Italian guard artillerists as ordered in 1803 :

    https://histunif.fr/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/1803_gde07.jpg

    By mid-1806 the regulation was, as you noted, essentially the same as the French guard artillerists :

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/af/bc/3f/afbc3ffb17e3eb04cbcfcea8a6be13dd.gif

    Boisselier offers this for 1805-1806, said to be from a watercolor of the era :

    http://grenadier.us/h.jpg

    #181635
    Avatar photoOotKust
    Participant

    “[Songis] was placed ‘in charge’ of the massed Garde artillerie corps” I would interested to see where that came from, as I could not find him in tactical direct command of any artillery sub-unit at Austerlitz, only all of the artillery of the whole army.

     

    TLDR- I guess I meant, many of the online resources place him so- regardless of real role. No doubt there is massive confusion amongst them. I’ve taken it as read. Yes I agree, incongruous placement- however; as is the wont of some officers and/ or officials across a lot of nationalities, to ‘attach’ themselves to a unit perhaps on the day of battle/ conflict.

    The head of the Garde Artillery- variously cited as a captain, then a major/ chef d’esc. Even Anatomy of Glory (translated) was unclear to me and I had to ‘upgrade the paintjob/ rank’ of my commander when I created the second company.

    I’ll come back on the remainder, my sincere thanks again!

    regards dave

    #181639
    Avatar photoHeroy
    Participant

    Super painting and a great model/scene !

    Here is the 38-year old chef d’escadron Joseph-Christophe Couin in late 1801 or early 1802, then commandant l’artillerie légère de la garde des consuls. He will be promoted colonel in October 1803.
    Your miniature looks much like him.
    http://grenadier.us/k.jpg

    The company officers of the French guard artillery at Austerlitz were a chef d’ecadron commanding each company (Doguereau & Digeon), with billets for a capitaine en 2e, lieutenant en 1er & lieutenant en 2e under his orders. For the Italians, there should have been a capitano in primo, capitano in secondo, tenente in primo & tenente in secondo. But the two captains were absent and a French chef d’escadron à la suite (Greiner) was assigned to them.

    #181677
    Avatar photoOotKust
    Participant

    Super painting and a great model/scene ! Here is the 38-year old chef d’escadron Joseph-Christophe Couin…

    Your miniature looks much like him.

    The company officers of the French guard artillery at Austerlitz were a chef d’ecadron commanding each company (Doguereau & Digeon)…  à la suite (Greiner) was assigned to them.

    Thank you Sir but you are too kind!  My man was painted 20 years ago and only recently ‘promoted’ (I believe his sabretache still awaits ‘correction’ but you can’t see this).

    Yes I created for some time a more ‘vignette’ style of commands and avoided the bright grassy green textures so beloved of Summertime and Spring displays. Ulm/ Austerlitz after all was a Fall/Winter campaign. I used to get quite a ribbing about the scenic ‘extras’ that adorn my troops as well!

    I’ve stopped my garde artillery at 1 Escadron, 1 [Capt Digeon] and 3e [Greiner] companies. I’m surprised that Greiner was in charge of the Italian company!
    But I believe I followed Anatomy of Glory for the commanders, not that either is represented by models, except by name on their unit labels.

    Although I know of Doguereau, I understood he was placed elsewhere? Quelle surpris!

    regards and Happy New Year to us ALL!

    #183553
    Avatar photoOotKust
    Participant

    Louis Charles Barthélémy Sopransi (1783-1814)

    Just an aside, and not in my timeline at all, but as I just recalled to someone else, so many interesting characters to be found.

    Another Northern Italian, from Tuscany as we would say: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Charles_Barth%C3%A9l%C3%A9my_Sopransi .

    had a metoric rise in the cavalry and staff. From ‘volunteer’ in 1798 to promoted in the field Sous-Lt at Marengo, thence Austerlitz with the 1er Dragons where he probably was part of the mopping up.

    The First were detached to Davouts III Corps and intially at least were solely supporting Heudelets meagre ‘brigade’ presence at Tellnitz.

    Following the 1806-07 campaigns he joined Berthiers Etat-Major-Generale (probably for obvious reasons…) and within 10 years (1813) was promoted Gen de Brigade just before being wounded the last day of Leipzig.

    He had served time in every corps of cavalry to that date. Rigos’ interpretation as ADC c 1808+

    cheers dave

    #183555
    Avatar photoHeroy
    Participant

    Barthélémy Sopransi was made a baron per decree of August 1809 at age 25 (with 5,000 francs per year in dotations – the base pay of a colonel of cavalry), and an officer of the Légion d’honneur after Borodino. He was also a chevalier of the Couronne de Fer (1809) and the Austrian Order of Saint Leopold and the Ordre impérial des Trois toisons d’or (both in 1810). He died in May 1814 from sepsis from a light wound received the day after Leipzig, at age 30. His coat-of-arms:
    https://www.geneanet.org/gallery/file/1/ce/11/12011677/medium.jpg

    But, perhaps most importantly, he was a son from her first marriage of Berthier’s mistress, Giuseppa Carcano-Visconti (Milan 1760 – Paris 1840), with whom Berthier and his wife lived as a ménage à trois. As painted by the baron Gérard at age 50 in 1810:
    https://ovm.art.uiowa.edu/web_images/decaso_lg_1000/DEC-06528.jpg

    Berthier’s wife was Maria Elisabeth von Wittelsbach (Landshut, Bavaria 1784 – Paris 1849), who lived after Berthier’s death with Sopransi’s former capitaine aide de camp, Alphonse Nicolas Lerminier (Paris 1788 – Paris 1872). As painted by Boze in 1817 at age 33:
    http://www.gogmsite.net/_Media/duchess-maria-elisabeth-in_med.jpeg

    #183574
    Avatar photoOotKust
    Participant

    Ok thats quite enough smutty trash talk for a clean military subject thankyou!! 🙂

    Yes we understand in English that Berthier, a complex personality anyway, was smitten with Mme Visconti and that dastardly N. interferred with ‘natural justice’ making him marry an unknown for dynstic reasons- which can’t have been good for their relationship either.

    I understand Berthier spent considerable sums on the lady to keep her as she was accustomed- which may or may not be true and he should have told N. to get lost!

    Not like unfaithfull marriages and myriads of wanderings weren’t uncommon in Europe all over and even his own family. Natural justice indeed!

    cheers

    #183582
    Avatar photoHeroy
    Participant

    Sopransi was promoted to general at age 29. So, too, the great Lasalle. Talleyrand’s illegitimate son, called Charles de Flahaut was promoted general at age 27. Napoléon’s brother Louis was promoted general at 24 years, 6 months and 19 days. Napoléon himself, promoted at age 24 years, 4 months and 7 days, was the second youngest general of the revolution and 1st empire.
    But the youngest general of all had the most humble of origins ….

    Jean-Paul Schramm
    • 1.XII.1789 born at Arras, raised as the son of Johannes Adam Schramm (Beinheim en Alsace 1760 – château de Beinheim 1826), then sergent-major in the régiment de Diesbach suisse, and Séraphine Woitel (~1770 – ~1795) *
    • 19.X.1799 then in Egypt, listed as entered service as a corporal in the 2e demi-brigade d’infanterie légère, were his father was the commanding officer
    • 24.XII.1799 promoted sergeant
    • 30.VII.1800 promoted sous-lieutenant au titre provisoire by the général en chef Kléber
    • 24.IX.1803 the 2e demi-brigade d’infanterie légère is renamed 2e régiment d’infanterie légère
    • 16.III.1804 confirmed sous-lieutenant, age 14
    • 2.III.1805 promoted lieutenant, age 15
    • 10.III.1805 passed with the “bataillon d’élite” of the 2e léger to the “grenadiers de la réserve” under Oudinot, where his father commanded the two battalions of the 2e & 3e léger
    • 8.X.1805 captured a canon at the battle of Wertingen
    • 4.XI.1805 at the battle of Amstettin
    • 16.XI.1805 captured a canon at the battle of Hollabrunn
    • 2.XII.1805 at the battle of Austerlitz
    • 14.III.1806 made a member of the Légion d’honneur
    • 22.III.1806 passed lieutenant aide de camp for his father (who had been promoted général de brigade 24.XII.1805)
    • 10.XII.1806 at Madgeburg
    • 30.III.1807 at the seige of Danzig
    • 19.IV.1807 promoted capitaine in the fusilier-chasseurs de la garde, age 17
    • 10.VI.1807 at the battle of Heilsburg, wounded by a bullet in his right side
    • 1.II.1808 granted a dotation of 1,000 francs per year
    • 2.XII.1808 distinguished at Madrid
    • 21.V.1809 at Essling
    • 6.VII.1809 at Wagram
    • 1810 in Spain
    • 15.III.1810 made a chevalier de l’Empire (confirmed as a vicomte 30.VIII.1827)
    • 1811 in Spain
    • 18.VII.1811 promoted chef de bataillon, commandant du 2e voltiguers de la garde, age 21
    • 1812 in Russia
    • 1813 in Saxony
    • 14.IV.1813 promoted colonel d’infanterie, major-commandant du 2e voltiguers, age 23
    • 2.V.1813 at Lutzen, wounded by 2 bullets to the left arm and chest
    • 14.V.1813 again wounded in the chest, promoted officer of the Légion d’honneur
    • 26.VIII.1813 at Dresden
    • 23.IX.1813 promoted général de brigade – age 23 years, 9 months and 22 days
    • 17.X.1813 defense of Dresden
    • 11.XI.1813 prisoner at the capitulation of Dresden
    • 1.VII.1814 return to France, placed in non-activity
    • 20.VIII.1814 made a chevalier de Saint-Louis
    • 21.IX.1814 married Euphrasie Belin de La Renouardière (fille d’un procureur du roi, Baugé south-west of Le Mans 1790 – château de Bazouges près Baugé 1856) **
    • 25.II.1815 commandant of the department of Maine-et-Loire
    • 12.VI.1815 assigned to the defense of Paris
    • 1.VIII.1815 placed in non-activity
    He again served actively from 1828, with a long and distinguished career as a general officer, minister of war, senator and peer of France – lasting to 1864. He died at Paris in 1884, age 95

    * His actual parents appear to have been fusilier Henri Claessens and Magdeleine Wallez : the company sergeant-major and his “wife” taking in an unwanted enfant. Jean-Paul’s official death certificate in 1884 reads “fils de père et mère dont les noms ne nous sont pas connus”.

    ** Their son Théophile Paul Schramm (1815-1890) was an officer of Saphis in Tunesia, later mayor of Montigné-les-Rairies and then conseiller général for the department of Maine-et-Loire

    See :

    https://books.openedition.org/pur/169546?lang=en

    https://www.gennpdc.net/lesforums/lofiversion/index.php?t133554.html

    From a painting by Lacretelle in 1848 :
    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-egRPzlKNJSM/UoDzWVhclII/AAAAAAAAMuE/hFruLiGhV94/s1600/%D1%88%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%BC+%D0%B6%D0%B0%D0%BD-%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B0%D0%BC.jpg

    #183583
    Avatar photoDarkest Star Games
    Participant

    A 10 year old corporal.  That had to chafe at some of the crusty old salts.

     

    "I saw this in a cartoon once, but I'm pretty sure I can do it..."

    #183585
    Avatar photoOotKust
    Participant

    Interesting for sure. Again we so many ‘rules’ broken- enfant du regiment… etc. entitled to work in and or become musicians before 16- only then could they become soldats- here we see an example not unlike the Russian elite…

    Nevertheless he had quite an active career and put himself in the action is obvious (or terribly unlucky…). I’ll be doing his regiment later for the Reserve Grenadiers, will have to make a special effort… 😉

    As to the others- well the Revolution was an atypical time for the talented; neo-nepotism isn’t unknown so expect that too; as to ‘the great Lasalle’ I’m having second thoughts after reading Heilsberg (see elsewhere).

    d

     

    #183586
    Avatar photoHeroy
    Participant

    And ….

    Two cousins of Napoléon – Philippe Antoine d’Ornano promoted general at age 27 & Jean-Thomas Arrighi de Casanova promoted general at age 29.

    Two aides de camp of Berthier from the ancien nobility – Minister of War Clarke’s son-in-law Raymond Aymeric Philippe Joseph de Montesquiou-Fezensac promoted general at age 29 & Amand Charles Louis Lelievre de La Grange promoted general at age 28.

    Two Corsicans in French service during the revolutionary era – Jean Charles Abbatucci promoted general at age 26 & Jean-Baptiste Cervoni promoted general at age 28.

    #183589
    Avatar photoOotKust
    Participant

    👍🏽

    #184407
    Avatar photoOotKust
    Participant

    One key character in my ‘top-list’ is important because he’s cited at the front line at Pratze reportng on St.Hilaires fight during the great central conflict at Austerlitz, where he stayed some time to bolster the units confidence, all the while under fire..

    I’ve juSt noticed, belatedly I guess, that Berthier did not have the older, mature officers as ADCs as both N. and other marshals had.

    My data is brief, and despite references about Etat-Major ADCs etc and then the completely separate issue noted above:

    Capt Girardin d’Ermenonville1 (Alexandre Louis) CLH704 Aptd ADC-03 (dress?)

    The links to both former Royals in France and Poland is quite strong, so perhaps these ‘familial’ bonds were increasingly used even this early under the Empire.

    So despite being a ‘brevet’ Captain then Chef d’Escadron in a confusing mish-mash of dates…

    “Aide de camp du ministre de la guerre le 30 juin 1803, il est fait chevalier de la Légion d’honneur le 5 juillet 1804, et il est affecté au 23e régiment de chasseurs le 24 mars 1805 … Il se distingue à la Bataille d’Austerlitz le 2 décembre 1805, et l’Empereur le fait officier de la Légion d’honneur le 26 décembre 1805, il est nommé chef d’escadron au 8e régiment de chasseurs le 28 octobre 1805…”

    *from wiki*

    I’m thinking he has to be in ‘Imperial Staff’ ADC attire by the time of battle. Thoughts?

    merci,

    dave

    #184426
    Avatar photoHeroy
    Participant

    Of all the aides de camp for Berthier at Austerlitz (de Girardin, Édouard de Colbert, Louis Lejeune, Edmond de Talleyrand-Périgord, Armand de Lelièvre-Lagrange and Charles de Longchamps), only Girardin had been with him at the beginning of the year at the ministry of defense. Colbert had been Junot’s aide de camp. Lejeune had been on the engineering staff of the 1st military division at Paris. Périgord had been Pino’s aide de camp in the Italian service. Largrange had been Sébastiani’s aide de camp. Longchamps, actually a civilian, had been personal secretary to Murat’s wife, princess Caroline, grand-duchess of Berg. All but Girardin had been named only after the entry into the campaign in September.

    1805 pre-dates the famous Lejeune-designed hussar style uniform for Berthier’s aides de camp. There was a regulation uniform for aides de camp decreed in An XII:
    — plain dark blue habit-frac with a single row of gold buttons (marked with a casque crossed by an epee, surrounded by oak leaves), with collar and cuffs sky-blue
    — dark blue trousers, tucked into hussar boots
    — white brassard, chapeau with white plume topped red (for aides to generals en chief)
    — rank insignia, possibly gold aiguillette on right shoulder (not per regulation outside of the guard until 1812, but apparently worn earlier by army HQ officers)

    How much was this regulation uniform really worn ? Especially when aides de camp were “grabbed” at the start of a campaign ?
    Yet Girardin had been in Paris at the ministry (albeit carried on the books of chasseur regiments since March*). So I would put him in the regulation uniform, in contrast to his colleagues.

    *Presumably, because his billet at the ministry needed to be back-filled as he transitioned to the army HQ staff then being formed.

    Alexandre-Louis-Robert de Girardin d’Ermenonville
    — 13.II.1776 né à Paris
    …………
    — 14.X.1801 passé lieutenant aide de camp du général Molitor
    — 15.IV.1802 promu capitaine
    — 22.VI.1802 naissance à Paris de son fils naturel, alors dit “Émile de Lamothe” – la mère est madam Adélaïde-Marie Dupuy née Fagnan (1775-1851), épouse d’un magistrat
    — 30.VI.1803 passé aide-de-camp du ministre de la guerre général Berthier
    — 5.VIII.1804 fait membre de la Légion d’honneur
    — ~15.VIII.1804 fait sécrétaire-général de la grand vénerie impériale
    — 24.III.1805 passé capitaine au 23e régiment de chasseurs à cheval
    — 1805 à la Grande armée
    — 28.X.1805 promu chef d’escadron au 8e régiment de chasseurs à cheval **
    — 26.XII.1805 promu officier de la Légion d’honneur
    — 1806 à l’armée d’Italie
    — ~15.IV.1806 promu lieutenant de la grande louveterie impériale
    — 30.XII.1806 promu colonel du 8e régiment de dragons
    etc., etc., etc.

    ** An interesting coincidence : Girardin’s former colleague at the ministry of defense, adjudant-commandant Jean-Baptiste Curto, was passed colonel of the same regiment on the same day.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/Alexandre_Louis_Robert_Girardin_d%27Ermenonville.jpg?20170425162409
    https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k1153662/f448.item.r=Girardin.zoom

    https://gw.geneanet.org/public/img/media/deposits/b0/2c/3115886/medium.jpg?t=1449385917
    https://gw.geneanet.org/pierfit?lang=fr&n=fagnan&oc=0&p=adelaide+marie

    #184454
    Avatar photoOotKust
    Participant

    Alexandre my thanks once again; for the wealth and depth of info and support of my suppositions.

    It is not well understood I feel in gaming circles that ADCs came and went- and alluding to my earlier comments about a mix of responsibilities- the day job, then the glory etc. are separate matters.

    It is probably wrong to call them sinecures, but the ‘holding’ of rank in the hierarchy (whether Army or Regiment) was common process as you show as well. no doubt there is a more correct term, which at this moment eludes me.

    I have suitable figures, not quite painted yet- one of these might do. I am thinking however, as you cite the ‘Army’ regulation dress with sky/ celeste facings; that perhaps at the MoW and Etat-Major-Generale it is equally likely that a more sombre all national blue with lace only, similar to Adjutant-Commandant/ Adjoint uniform may be probable?

    My customised ADCs -Laville (Bessieres) and Lejeune (Berthier) in his 1806 style uniform colours (the Miniature Figurines model is the 18008/09 version but is too nice not to use him).

    One note, I do not have on record [nor from my SHAT copies] Charles de Longchamps at all. Is it possible he was a Secretaire or some such if he was just a civilian?

    regards davew

    #184459
    Avatar photoHeroy
    Participant

    By regulation, no embroidery. But, how much was this really followed ?

    “holding’ of rank in the hierarchy (whether Army or Regiment) was common process as you show as well.”
    “Grabbing” AdC’s from regiments (the usual practice for the Russian army throughout the era) was considered an abuse by Napoléon (he also tried to insist that sous-lieutenants not be posted as AdC’s). By the later Empire, the AdC’s had no regimental affiliation, and instead were considered as “officiers d’état major”. Against the was the patronage system, increasingly common as the old nobility returned to service, of having friends’ or relatives’ sons posted as AdC’s to ease their hardships in campaigning and spur their advancement.

    Charles de Longchamps (Charles-Joseph-Marie de Laulne de Lonchamps) is mentioned by Lejeune as arriving shortly before the battle. He implies that he served with Berthier. However, some bios assume he was with Murat. His Légion d’honneur dossier has him officially posted from 23 October 1805 as a “capitaine adjoint d’état major à l’armée de réserve”.

    https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_de_Longchamps
    https://books.google.com/books?id=ktZfAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA133
    https://books.google.com/books?id=ipkY_a2K8yQC&pg=PA27
    https://books.google.hr/books?id=S7U5AAAAcAAJ&pg=PA327
    https://www.leonore.archives-nationales.culture.gouv.fr/ui/notice/107103

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