29/10/2020 at 19:00 #14612129/10/2020 at 21:14 #146126Steve JohnsonParticipant
Very interesting, so thanks for taking the time to do this.29/10/2020 at 21:26 #146127WhirlwindParticipant
That’s brilliant, many, many thanks.29/10/2020 at 23:23 #146128grizzlymcParticipant
It’s interesting to compare and contrast with experiences of 21st AG and from the Brits in Italy. One comment I have never heard made about Commonwealth troops was inadequate patrolling. It seems to me that the moment you had a foxhole dug and a wet inside you, someone was calling for a patrol. Ubiquitous patrolling must have solved the issue of signaling plans to the enemy.
It’s also interesting to note the difficulty of getting MGs to put enough suppressive fire downrange. I have never heard that comment about Commonwealth troops, but apparently the Americans learned that the purpose of shooting is not always to drop an enemy.30/10/2020 at 07:42 #146139MartinRParticipant
Thanks John, very interesting.
"Mistakes in the initial deployment cannot be rectified" - Helmuth von Moltke30/10/2020 at 09:10 #146140EtrangerParticipant
Yes indeed, interesting!30/10/2020 at 11:17 #146152Deleted UserMember
Interesting. I wonder if there is another from Mid-war to see if changes were implemented and what other lessons they learned once the war got going.30/10/2020 at 16:16 #146161
Many thanks for this John. Some rule writers should be made aware of this. As an aside, what ‘musicians’ did a German infantry platoon/company have, buglers? I don’t recall seeing photos of such men, or figures offered for sale by figure manufacturers. A couple of ‘Jingling Johnnies’ would enliven my platoon HQs no end.
Play is what makes life bearable - Michael Rosen31/10/2020 at 00:38 #146177PunkrabbittParticipant
That was an amazing read and I thank you for it. I have all the tactical sense of a wet, possibly dead hamster so things like thisxare always helpful. Thank you again.
Please visit my OSR products for sale at
www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/pub/17194/Punkrabbitt-Publishing01/11/2020 at 23:27 #146239John D SaltParticipant
Some rule writers should be made aware of this.
The thing I always find frustrinteresting about reports like this is how they never seem to deal with the same topics that wargames rules-writers deal with. This report concentrates on recce, engaging hidden targets, use of smoke, and the assignment of control measures such as objectives and boundaries. In most wargames I’ve played, “Time spend in reconnaissance is always wasted”, area fire against poorly-located targets isn’t possible, there might not be satisfactory rules for smoke, and control measures are almost always completely absent. So unfortunately for Coyotepunc, a putative Nasserhamsterstaktischehandbuch might not help very much on the wargames table.
As an aside, what ‘musicians’ did a German infantry platoon/company have, buglers? I don’t recall seeing photos of such men, or figures offered for sale by figure manufacturers. A couple of ‘Jingling Johnnies’ would enliven my platoon HQs no end.
Sadly I can find no evidence of jingling johnnies at platoon, or even company, level. I’ve had a gander at a lot of the infantry KStNs at https://www.wwiidaybyday.com and come to the hand-waving conclusions that:
Company and rifle platoon HQs each have one bugler (Hornist) for orbats up to the end of 1941. The Schützen-Feldersatzkompanie has huge platoons, each with 2 buglers.
From Feb to Nov 1941 company and rifle platoon HQs will have buglers and also a visual signaller, presumably with the K-Blink, see https://www.nachrichtentruppe.de/en/technology/69-das-k-blinkgeraet-von-reichswehr-und-wehrmacht
From 1943 radios make an appearance, typically 4 Feldfunksprecher bs for the company, and the buglerage and blinkery mostly disappear. One Orbat for a Sturmkompanie includes 8 Feldfunksprecher bs as well as company and platoon buglers, and the one for the Karpaten-Jagdkompanie has 4 Feldfunksprecher bs and platoon buglers.
A modest amount of time flonking around the interwebs reveals four or five photos of Wehrmacht buglers who look warrier than regimental bandsmen,including one Fallschirmjäger, but few of them seem to be easily linkable to.
All the best,
John.02/11/2020 at 07:43 #146242MartinRParticipant
Interesting. I wonder if there is another from Mid-war to see if changes were implemented and what other lessons they learned once the war got going.
I assume the lessons learned apply to principles laid down in Truppenfuhrung published in the late 1930s (translations are available), which covers operations up to divisional size in a range of circumstances including mountain warfare etc.
The only later manual I’ve come across is the misleadingly titled “German Squad Tactics” in the Nafziger series. It does cover the minutiae of platoon level combat (who carries the MG34 etc) but is mainly concerned with company level operations for infantry and armoured panzer Grenadiers. It still assumes a four gruppe platoon with a 50mm mortar section though, even though the infantry section is supposedly from 1942.
As John notes, a lot of this stuff is about march security, recce, the organisation of attack and defence, objectives, boundaries etc. No reference to buglers I’m afraid.
"Mistakes in the initial deployment cannot be rectified" - Helmuth von Moltke02/11/2020 at 12:29 #146265
Thanks John, I knew I could rely upon you. Now to try to find the same bugler photos that you did, and then to persuade someone to make one!
Play is what makes life bearable - Michael Rosen02/11/2020 at 12:45 #146266
Here’s one from King and Country. Doubt that he would have worn the Swallow’s Nests on active service though.
and it looks as though they didn’t
Play is what makes life bearable - Michael Rosen02/11/2020 at 14:51 #146271ThuseldParticipant02/11/2020 at 15:12 #146273John D SaltParticipant
I would be interested in having a crack at reading the German. Do you have that available?
Indeed I have. Had I been slightly less forgetful I might have included my e-mail address for people to send requests to.
Send mail to musketoonltdFRUITBATgmail.com, where “FRUITBAT” is the “@” sign, and if you like mention Auswertung der taktischen Erfahrungen der Infanterie im Westen in the subject line. Same goes for anyone else. Suggestions for improvement always welcome (sensible suggestions, not “Learn more German you lazy lump”).
All the best,
John.02/11/2020 at 18:34 #146289PatriceParticipant
Very interesting, thanks.
BTW I happen to own a small book which I find very interesting (I mention it here although I’m not willing to sell my own, but perhaps you’ll be interested to know it does exist, I don’t remember where I found it, probably in some car boot sale or at a local bookseller in France many years ago for a cheap price) “Modern Battle by Col. Paul W. Thompson, Infantry Journal – Penguin Books, printed in the USA 1942” . It describes many battles from the first part of WW2, taken from German military publications. “All the chapters of Modern Battle were written not only with the soldier of today’s American Army in mind, but also his lay military brother in arms in this day of total war – the citizen”.
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