Highland Band

[Deleted User]

No, not the Corries but a unit of un-regimented Highlanders who will fight alongside my Covenanters.

I’ve just received an order of figures from Tumbling Dice & I have a question or two before the bottles of tartan paint come out.

The figures are properly dressed in the Feileadh Mòr (apart from the Laird who is in Truibhas).  Now, I know that strict clan tartans at this time are unlikely but I do think district plaids were a distinct possibility. Thus, I think I’ll mix & match 3-4 plaids amongst the figures as any unit would surely be recruited from a single area or perhaps two?

Comment?

I’m fairly conversant with bagpipes as my father played as does my brother & I grew up with the skirl (does this qualify as child abuse?). The piper figures interestingly have only two drones of equal length. I’ve done some searching but can’t find anything. I’m fairly confident about Paul of TD so is this accurate?

 

donald

 

[Etranger]

A quick google suggests different lengths was usual in the 17th century. http://forums.bobdunsire.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158110

One of your mob?

16th century, fewer images but similar appearance. http://www.essentialvermeer.com/folk_music/bagpipe.html#.W_89L-x96M8

I reckon you’d be fairly safe in lopping one pipe.

[Deleted User]

(quote) One of your mob?.[/quote]

A McDonald? God no.

There’s a reason I took up with Covenanters rather than with Montrose’s lads.

They might be religious nutters but they’re *my* religious nutters.

donald

[Brendan Morrissey]

More of a Proclaimers man, myself (“And I would rout 500 miles, And I would rout 500 more….etc etc”).  I also suspect that the Mc/MacDonalds – including Ronald himself – might be more my kind of “religious nutters” (although I tend to identify more with the Hamburglar….).

Irish war pipes traditionally only had two drones, instead of the Scottish three (hence we only drone on and on, whilst you Scots drone on and on and on….), so perhaps two were the norm back then.

As regards “clan tartans”, this tends to be a “baby and bathwater” kind of thing.  Somewhere in the dim and distant past, a wargamer read somewhere that most actual clan tartans are Victorian inventions, committed it to paper, and everyone since has copied it.  In fact, as you clearly are aware, there were almost certainly occasions when a distinct sett, or setts (a set of setts?), would have been worn by a particular clan, as most either had their own weaving mill, or had access to a neighbour’s mill.  Depending on how productive those mills were, specific colours, and possibly even specific designs, would have been worn quite widely by members of a particular clan or sept, especially if the chief bought a job lot to sell on to his tenants.  At the very least, I would suggest that you could use a common base colour to help identify your warbands.

Incidentally, I hesitate to bring up his name, as he is not the most popular of Scotsmen with other Scotsmen, but Stuart Reid (I’ll pause here to allow some/most/all of you to calm down and wipe the spittle off your computer screens) has come up with evidence that “hodden grey” was not so much what we would call a grey, but more a very light buff colour.  On that basis, I suspect that tartans which appear as brown in illustrations might actually have been a tad lighter than we imagine.

[Deleted User]

I had read that ‘hodden grey’ was actually beige but decided that myopia was a district in Roman Bithynia.

It was years ago I saw that photo of 20 or so German WW2 army tunics & not one was the same colour as another. Not one.

After applying ice to my forehead (though, curiously, none to my drink), I decided to never take any wargaming discussion on shades & hues seriously.

Hmmm. Two Irish drones. Probably Paul was thinking of McColla’s Irish allies rather than the Scots when he made this figure. I guess I could add a drone but that is starting to seem pedantic ( possibly a district in Roman Lugdunensis?)

 

donald

 

[Deleted User]

Brendan Morrissey wrote:

As regards “clan tartans”, this tends to be a “baby and bathwater” kind of thing. Somewhere in the dim and distant past, a wargamer read somewhere that most actual clan tartans are Victorian inventions, committed it to paper, and everyone since has copied it. In fact, as you clearly are aware, there were almost certainly occasions when a distinct sett, or setts (a set of setts?), would have been worn by a particular clan, as most either had their own weaving mill, or had access to a neighbour’s mill. Depending on how productive those mills were, specific colours, and possibly even specific designs, would have been worn quite widely by members of a particular clan or sept, especially if the chief bought a job lot to sell on to his tenants. .

I got my first hint that clan tartans were valid from reading Duffy’s ‘Culloden’ where a specific Highland regiment is described as mostly wearing red & black. Further reading has put me to where you are.

The Victorians with their habit of embellishment are responsible for the later & total rejection of clan tartans. If they’ve faked one thing, it all must be fake! An interesting corollary is McPherson’s “translation” of Ossian. It’s now seen as a literary hoax but the fact is the old Roaster actually did interview old Gaelic speaking Highlanders & his work probably contains quite a bit of genuine oral literature, now lost & his work discredited.

There’s a thesis in that if anyone’s interested.

 

donald

[Not Connard Sage]

Deleted User wrote:

After applying ice to my forehead (though, curiously, none to my drink), I decided to never take any wargaming discussion on shades & hues seriously.

You’re learning.

Now you just need to wean yourself off the ‘clan tartan’ thing. 😉

 

Some notes. If they seem obvious/condescending I apologise. A bit. :

We’re talking mid-17th century here. Pre-industrialisation and proper mass production.

Spinning and weaving would frequently have been done at home (the mark of a good wife) using wool from one’s own sheep. Mass production might be limited to the wives of households in a village getting together. Plaids might be woven to an old family recipe, but probably not by diktat of the Laird. Dyestuffs would be whatever was available/could be afforded**, so mostly restrained hues.

What also must be borne in mind is that before the New Model Army there was very little uniformity in, er, uniforms even among organised armies, let alone among Highland militia.

‘Clan’ tartans are not a Victorian invention, although they gained in popularity during her reign. The blame, if blame there be, can be laid at the door of Sir Walter Scott and he died five years before Vicky’s reign began. The Victorians, with their romantic view of history just ran with it.

Hodden ‘grey’. Oh dear.

‘Hodden’ refers to the material itself, a coarse undyed woolen cloth. So how do you make wool for weaving?  Basically, you clean it (get all the dead insects, burrs and bits of sheep shit out), wash it, and spin it into yarn. If your sheep are all white you end up with white yarn and white cloth. Probably.

“Ah!” I hear you say, “but my sheep are black (very dark brown), and white (off-white, often very off), and there’s a few that’s a bit brown”. Now ask yourself what colour ‘hodden’ cloth will be if you spin a black, white, brown blend of differing proportions every time for your yarn. Will it be the same shade as Mrs McCreadie’s hodden over in the next village? Will it even be the same shade as the hodden you wove last year?

Have a read of this, which argues for and against some of the points I made above.

http://www.scotlandmag.com/magazine/issue87/12011614.html

** and if anyone wants to argue that a lot of dyestuffs, until fairly recently, weren’t expensive and/or labour intensive, they can take it up with the first Mrs Sage who has some expertise in the field.  🙂

 

 

 

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[Deleted User]

NCS

All good points.  But when you read my posts, take heed of the modifiers: “some” , “many”, “not impossible”, “probably”. I’ll try again: Clan tartans may well have some foundation in reality.

BTW You’ve neglected to mention fading as a further element in what a colour might ultimately look like.

Re; tartans &  *some* uniformity.

Another consideration is that in a clan regiment the Clan Chief would stand with his sons and his brothers and his uncles and cousins. Each man in the regiment would also be standing with his close relatives; so I think it’s likely there would have been knots of men wearing tartans that came off the same loom. That’s why I think I think 3 or 4 setts per unit is perfectly appropriate. Not quite all dressed in the intricate ‘Royal McMoonie Going to the Shops’ sett but some uniformity.

Also on the subject of tartans, when the race was on to ‘create’ the modern clan tartans Wilsons sent out researchers to collect setts popular in the various clan regions. Also the Highland Society asked the Clan Chiefs to register thier tartans; some of the Chiefs consulted local weavers about the traditional setts used on their lands. Which means, I think, that not all of the modern Clan Tartans are as fanciful as some earnest people would have us believe; there could be many that do have traditional links with particular Clan lands. On the other hand there are also many that are complete fabrications but never under estimate the power of tradition.

 

donald

[Etranger]

Deleted User wrote:

… Hmmm. Two Irish drones. Probably Paul was thinking of McColla’s Irish allies rather than the Scots when he made this figure. I guess I could add a drone but that is starting to seem pedantic ( possibly a district in Roman Lugdunensis?) donald

Looking back at those pictures I linked to above, most of them only show two drones, rather than 3, including Piper McDonnell. Without anything more definitive, it looks like the routine use of a third drone may be more recent. I also found Irish pipes with 3 drones so that may not differentiate anyway.

The addition of the second drone around the end of the fifteenth century marked by far the end in the development of the bagpipe. It is impossible to say with certainty when exactly the third drone—the “bass” drone as it produces a pitch one octave below that of the other two “tenor” drones—had been added. Considering various sources we can be reasonably sure that if the three-drone bagpipe did not exist before 1600 it was invented not much after. http://www.essentialvermeer.com/folk_music/bagpipe_a.html#.XAEE32gzbIU

So, looks like both 2 and 3 are correct.

 

[Brendan Morrissey]

I wonder if the introduction of pipes into the British Army, via Scottish, and later Irish, regiments standardised the bagpipes at three drones?  I believe that Irish regiments adopted the third drone in order to conform.

[Deleted User]

Brendan Morrissey wrote:

I wonder if the introduction of pipes into the British Army, via Scottish, and later Irish, regiments standardised the bagpipes at three drones? I believe that Irish regiments adopted the third drone in order to conform.

A distinct possibility. Amongst other reasons, I can see having a regulation 3 drones (no more, no less) would stop those uppity gits in the Black Watch having four. or five.

donald

[Who Asked This Joker]

These guys will probably be happy to fight/play along side the covenantors.  They’d certainly walk 500 miles.  😀

John

"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."

--Abraham Lincoln

[Not Connard Sage]

Deleted User wrote:

NCS All good points. But when you read my posts, take heed of the modifiers: “some” , “many”, “not impossible”, “probably”.

You can’t have missed similar implied caveats in my post either 😉

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[Deleted User]

Who Asked This Joker wrote:

These guys will probably be happy to fight/play along side the covenantors. They’d certainly walk 500 miles.

Walking 500 miles might be OK on weekdays but definitely not on the Sabbath (a day useful for banning Sunday ferry services and chaining up play park swings).

I love the Osprey illustration in the Covenanter’s book that shows the Minister catching some soldiers dicing.

https://www.worldhistory.biz/modern-history/83150-scots-covenanter.html

donald

[Brendan Morrissey]

Maybe he caught them using my dice, they’re so bloody awful that would be a sin!!!

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