Hind and Seek – Rules for the Soviet-Afghan War

[madman]

Finished watching the video and made some notes. I will have to look a few things up but here are some first impressions.

At 29:20 you mention a correction will need to be made to the Mujahideen vs Soviet assets as they don’t agree with respect to types of mines and reactions. Have you reviewed this and if so what is the answer?

Why can you fire “through” civilians when you can’t do so through friendlies? I would think this would be the same PLUS the restriction on attacking targets within 6″ of civilians IN ADDITION.

Why have different quality levels of spotting teams? You make no mention that they have to make a quality check in order to “spot” units or am I missing something or was it missed in the rules? I can see making a quality check before attempting to call in an attack. Or is the quality only for survival effects?

I find having to swap between different dice as well as cards at different points in the game turn awkward and confusing. To access “face cards” for air strikes and helicopter support is an 18 in 58 chance. Close enough to 2 in 6 chance to be easily replaced by a 5+ on a D6 roll. Since morale is checked at the end of a turn then a 2D6 roll is less awkward as ALL units are handled the same way and at one time.

My initial impression that units are “moraled” to death still holds. However, when played over more turns the snowball effect is more pronounced. Also as we were playing early war scenarios between DRA units and lee-enfield equipped Mujahideen would account for a lot of the limited damage the units took. Still calling close range “lethal” and not “demoralizing” is confusing when the true game effects. Just my $0.02.

 

Some other thoughts out side of the video.

You state the size of infantry squads as between 5 and a dozen fighters. Using your carrying capacities of soviet vehicles Soviet infantry squads are clearly 2 (or at most 3) troopers while teams are single individuals or at most two man weapons crews such as lmg teams. Perhaps more clarity in future releases.

The early Hind A only mounts a single 12.7 in the nose. Treat it as a single DShk.

The Hind D mounts only a single Yak-B

The Hind E comes in 2 varieties. The Mi-24V (the most common of all Hinds) is similar to the D, The Mi-24P mounts a Gsh-30K twin barrel cannon fixed to the side of the nose firing directly forward and does not have the Yak-B, I can find no info on how common (numerous) this version was.

The Hind F (Mi-24VP) mounts a GSh-23L twin barrel gun in a redesigned turret in the nose which replaces the Yak-B. Very few were made and soon withdrawn as the system was unreliable.

All Hinds can carry 8 passengers and 4 rocket pods while As and Ds can only carry two ATGMs while the Es can carry four ATGMs. They can also carry gun pods and certain types of bombs. I can work up a complete list or interested parties can download the excellent 4+ publications book at;

http://www.4pluspublications.com/en/publications/3-mi-24-hind

 

Thank you for the video it showed we were doing most things correctly and how with more capable forces and more time the combat results did build. Please take all the above, like my email questions above, as intended as very interested players looking to help improve the game as well as ensure we were playing it correctly. Thank you.

 

Stephen

[NKL Aerotom]

Thanks for your comments Stephen, some great points / questions. I am planning some edits to the rules and I will implement the following changes:

madman wrote:

At 29:20 you mention a correction will need to be made to the Mujahideen vs Soviet assets as they don’t agree with respect to types of mines and reactions. Have you reviewed this and if so what is the answer?

The wording of the Soviet Reactions 4 and 5 should be swapped.

madman wrote:

Why can you fire “through” civilians when you can’t do so through friendlies? I would think this would be the same PLUS the restriction on attacking targets within 6″ of civilians IN ADDITION.

Definitely agree with this, I will make Civilians block line of sight exactly like friendly units.

madman wrote:

Why have different quality levels of spotting teams?

This is in case they take fire and need to take morale checks, or if they need to search for nearby hidden units or reveal dispersed markers. There will be the odd time when they need to take a quality check, but calling in support is not one of those times. I could potentially alter the points of the veteran and shaky versions, or make them do a quality check to call in support. I will probably go for the former.

madman wrote:

To access “face cards” for air strikes and helicopter support is an 18 in 58 chance. Close enough to 2 in 6 chance to be easily replaced by a 5+ on a D6 roll

I quite like the drawing cards as you know eventually a face card will come up and its a fun dynamic, sometimes its nice to do something that isn’t rolling dice to have a bit of a change. You’re right though: I could probably make this a D6 roll, but I would prefer to keep it as is.

With regards to Soviet transport space: I do make a mention of the smaller size of soviet units and the way their squads were set up, although this is under the “notes from the designer” section rather than in the main rules. I should really mention this under the Vehicle Transport rules.

With regards to the Hind: I believe I went with the Hind D, having the Yak-B, rocket pods and what I thought was an exterior gun pod. I think the remedy here will be to remove the 23mm Gun pod and just have the Yak-B and the rocket pods. Thanks for the PDF though, I have downloaded it and will have a look.

Thanks again for your comments, I will work through these and put together a latest version which I will release through Wargame Vault (and which will be automatically available to everyone who has purchased the rules).

Tom Jensen - http://ostfrontpublishing.com/

[madman]

Thank you for the quick reply.

Are drawn cards to be discarded or shuffled back into the deck? Based on your above and the fact assets can be played during a game and are held I assume they are discarded. This should be noted in the rules, preferably under things needed with the following issue addressed there as well. I didn’t find it. Also it should be clearly stated Aces and Jokers are treated as face cards. As I am not a card player I didn’t know this.

The video is very small and the angle poor for this but where (what company) are you sourcing your Afghan buildings? I have been collecting Eastern Front terrain so now I have to spend more! Also which figures are you using for Mujahideen, and can you get any close up shots similar to the above please?

[NKL Aerotom]

Hi Stephen, I will specify the playing card details – good point! And yes all cards that are used, from assets to cards drawn from the deck to check for support are discarded.

The Afghan villages are made from thick cardboard – cut out, glued together with PVA and painted with textured paint (essentially I “texture” it by adding baking soda to give it some grit) This was a cheap and quick way to make the terrain with an afternoon of arts & crafts 🙂

All the figures I use are Heroics and Ros 1/300 scale (6mm).

Here are some close ups:

Tom Jensen - http://ostfrontpublishing.com/

[madman]

So the Mujahideen figures are the “Taliban” series, from the irregular modern range? Sorry to be pedantic but I am close to ordering and want to make sure the H&R would make a good match. Those look great. For our games so far I have been using very old (30+ years) H&R WWII Germans painted white for winter!

I have some of the M21 rebel forces which look the part for DRA troops as they have BDU style caps. I have just started painting them and the same vintage M7 Soviet airborne troops. The M7’s head covering is indistinct but I have been conversing with the fellow at Tiny Metal Men blog and figure they have the padded jump helmets on. I would like to find figures suitable for the peaked “smokey bear” bush hats. Out of curiosity do you remember which figures you are using for the Soviet Infantry (specific version)? Also if anyone has some of the new Soviet Paratroops (VDV) figures and could post some it would be appreciated. I will post some pics of my figures, in progress paint wise, if people would like. Thank you for your replies.

Stephen

[alan]

Hi Stephen,

You mentioned buildings: in 6mm, I have used Hovels and Timecast Arab/North African/Libyan buildings, all of which paint up very nicely.

For figures, there are choices from Heroics and Ros, GHQ and Magister Militum.

 

[madman]

Alan.

Thank you for the info. I am familiar with H&R and GHQ. Finding pics of H&R figures is hit and miss. Plus when H&R posts pictures, especially of their figures, they are small and obscured by “terrain”. GHQ presents theirs so much better.

As for buildings I think I will go with roll your own. I have tons of balsa and bass (my other hobby is RC planes and my balsa stash is legendary in these parts) so finding suitable pictures and away I should go. Plus based on reading it seems a lot of Afghan built up areas are more a series of homes linked to common walled courtyards. Sounds like they have been dealing with bandit culture for an awfully long time.

Out of curiosity does anyone have ideas for mounted afghans? I am finishing up reading Horse Soldiers and the imagery of charging mounted troops firing AKs while hunkering down against their mounts’ necks for cover sounds like an interesting scenario and figure(s). I have never read of such tactics during the Soviet era but wonder if…

[NKL Aerotom]

Yes those Mujahideen are the irregular taliban miniatures. H&R are good price – the detail quality for that specific range is not as high as the GHQ taliban/mujahideen, but for such a small size no one is going to notice unless they look Veeeeery closely. Plus the GHQ miniatures are much more expensive.

 

I have some of the new VDV miniatures from H&R, here are some pictures of the M24 (soviet Paratroops), M25 (VDV Support) and SM301 VDV SPG-9 teams:

Close up on M24 / VDV troops:

SPG-9s and some command teams (I believe the latter come with the M24 pack)

Some of the support weapons:

 

You can see they have nice berets on which helps them stand out against the regular helmets of the other Soviet troops. The detail level is also very good, these being a newer range.

 

Alans Afghan buildings look AWESOME! I had forgotten how great they look compared to my primitive cardboard 🙂

 

Tom Jensen - http://ostfrontpublishing.com/

[NKL Aerotom]

As for my soviets I believe they are mostly the M17 – Soviet infantry in action.

I have some close ups of them as well. The detail level is not quite as good as the new VDV, and sometimes its not until you paint them that you can tell what is what. But hey, they’re 6mm scale so everything is tiny and all the photos are VERY close, like 1″ or 2″ from the miniatures. A human eye cannot see this well.

Tom Jensen - http://ostfrontpublishing.com/

[madman]

Tom

 

Thank you. Now I have to add them to my order. I hope I get some cash for Christmas! The berets are going to be great as now I can paint them blue. I see they have gone from being long strips to individual figures like GHQ. I like the long strips as I hot glue gun them to 1″ dowel stock for handling while painting.

[madman]

My human eye used to work that well. When I was a teen I used dead slot car motors for wire and made up turret baskets. Now days, 40+ years on, out comes a 3x power hood style magnifier for painting. I still prefer 6mm, mostly as I have lots. My weak point is terrain. I say as I look to my left at the stash of 1/2″ styrofoam sheet to be made into hills.

[NKL Aerotom]

madman wrote:

The berets are going to be great as now I can paint them blue.

My thoughts exactly! They’re the first on my list when I get back to painting my Hind & Seek forces (after finishing off these gulf war jets and rhodesians…)

I compiled a few reference pictures for building Afghan houses, not many, but something to get you started:

View post on imgur.com

Tom Jensen - http://ostfrontpublishing.com/

[madman]

Just looking at your paratroops again the tune Raspberry Beret keeps coming into my head. Shades of Bongolesia! I think this was courtesy of The Miniatures Page!

[madman]

My Gulf War jets were painted up back in the day. Used to play lots of competitive level Air Superiority. Converted it to miniatures using 1/300, 6mm and 1/285 lead and some 1/350 plastic as well as a mix of unknown scale die casts.

 

[NKL Aerotom]

Oh nice! All my aircraft are 1/600 from tumbling dice, from WW1 to modern day. I’ve painted up aircraft from Vietnam, Iran-Iraq and Falklands so far, now on to the Gulf War – mostly NATO I need to do as all the Iraqi aircraft are already done from the Iran-Iraq war.

some of our various aircraft, and the Falklands naval vessels (1/3000 scale from NAVWAR):

View post on imgur.com

I haven’t taken any photos of our falklands aircraft yet, or our complete Vietnam aircraft (There are many!) – still waiting on my decals to arrive before I call them all “finished”

Tom Jensen - http://ostfrontpublishing.com/

[madman]

Decals! Wuss. Back in my time we didn’t need no decals. Also walked up hill to and from school through 6 feet of snow all year round!

[madman]

Colin.

 

Great website. I also have the “build your own imagination” publication. I don’t know how you feel but a link (page?) giving a little info on yourself and an email or reply for contact info would be nice.

If only I could round up some opponents in my area (GTA). Around here the miniatures players hide under rocks and seem to play only one game. I would say 95% play GW or similar stuff only. Us old school and varied interest players are harder to come by. I have found a few and want to get H&S down pat before introducing it (again). I have played it with a couple guys and posted the issues and concerns above. I really hope to give it more tries and see how it goes.

[NKL Aerotom]

Good luck with your games Stephen, I will try to get the updates done over the next week. I would also like to send you a printed version if you don’t already have one. Email me with your address if you’re interested -although It will take a few weeks for the new printed version to be ready.

Tom Jensen - http://ostfrontpublishing.com/

[madman]

If anyone is interested in my aircraft flight stands here is a link.

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1665443/was-wondering

Mine are the the second last post, my user name (and AS handle) is Madman.

[madman]

Here is a link to the page on Tiny Metal Men with pics of M07 Soviet Airborne troops.

https://tinymetalmen.blogspot.ca/2012/05/heroics-and-ros-soviet-airborne.html?showComment=1513044189475#c6193400116598950604

[madman]

A few sites of interest.

Alternative method to make hills/mountains;

http://wargamingmiscellany.blogspot.ca/2010/01/wild-colonial-terrain.html

 

Large terrain boards if you like fixed terrain. It took me a while searching around to find part one. There are three parts in total.

Afghan Mountain Boards

 

I like how he makes Afghan buildings. AND I have a lot of heavy balsa (not so good for planes);

http://benssoldiers.blogspot.ca/2013/04/6mm-town-revisited.html

[madman]

OK what are the limits on pictures downloaded here? I am trying to down load pics smaller both in dimension and total file size than above and being bounced with no explanation, like other sites, as to what the limits are. No where can I find anything about image limits.

Not good.

[Mike]

Hi,

You can not upload images greater than 2mb.
You can download any size of image.
Or you can link to images on other sites of any size.

[madman]

Well Lets try this again.

It has been too quiet on this topic so here is what I have been beavering away at over the holidays so far.

In the spirit of Ben’s Soldiers site I have been making balsa buildings for Afghanistan. The thicker wood making the bulk of the buildings is 3/8″ which works out to about 10 feet. The thinner material is about 1 mm and smooths out the surfaces of the end cuts and provides material for the compound and roof top walls. I plan on coating the wood with straight or slightly thinned carpenter’s glue to provide a surface suitable for taking paint. I hope to find a light sand spray can.

 

The first picture is basic building blocks to be assembled into various Afghan compounds.

Here are some complete compounds based on GC minis designs.

Here are some 30 year old helis. The Mi-8 with the washer glued to the blades for strength (yet to be painted) is by C in C. The other Hip is Heroics and Ros. The two Hind As are GHQ (no rotors) and H&R.

These are all H&R. The right side up Hind is on some plastic stand which I have glued a super magnet to to represent low level flight. The inverted Hind shows how I have glued a nut to the bottoms of the helis. They also hold the Hinds level while “landed” as well as work with the stands.

Finally some Soviet Airborne troops I have gotten around to painting. They are set M7 and include three or four strips of basic troops and two strips of each heavy weapons sets.

Here is a close up of the troopers.

Just as a comparison here are some eastern front buildings made from materials acquired decades ago. The unpainted one shows the construction, two lengths of 3/8″ square acrylic capped by a 3/4″ triangle stock. The ends are capped with thin, in this case clear, styrene. The rods are sold in lengths. I do not remember if they were 3, 4, 6 or 8 foot long. I still have a bag of cut lengths and about a dozen and a half made up buildings of various lengths and heights.

[NKL Aerotom]

Looking great Stephen! those Afghan buildings came up a treat! just need some textured paint on there and you’re good to go.

For my buildings I mixed some sand-colored paint with a bit of baking soda for texture, then after that was dry, did a drybrush of a lighter sand color (Without any baking soda).

Tom Jensen - http://ostfrontpublishing.com/

[madman]

I’ll try dusting with baking soda after sealing the wood with glue and see how that looks (wet glue). From the pictures I have found (Google) the buildings look pretty smooth, especially at our scale.

[madman]

Tom. From your post earlier up this page. How did you make the hills? This is still my very weak point. I have some thin insulation foam, now to get to it.

[NKL Aerotom]

The hills were made by using a hot wire (part of a steel coat-hanger) heated up on a gas stove. I burned through a small section of polystyrene, making variations of angles and dips, then re-heated the wire. I could probably melt through about 3 or 4″ until the wire got too cold to melt the polystyrene. Seems to work pretty well though, I got some good comments on the hills at a convention where I ran a Hind & Seek demo game

Tom Jensen - http://ostfrontpublishing.com/

[alan]

Hi Tom,

Compliments of the Season to you.

I am updating my print copy of the rules with the errata and suggested errata.  From what I can see, the amendments are on pages 1, 2, 29 and 47: are there any others?  The only other change is the clarification that drawn cards are discarded: do you want to suggest “official” wording in some particular place?

Best regards,

Alan

[NKL Aerotom]

Hi Alan, the PDF version is updated, so you can download the latest through Wargame Vault.

If that doesn’t work just drop me an email and I can send you the latest.

Tom Jensen - http://ostfrontpublishing.com/

[alan]

Tom,

i do indeed have the updated pdf from Wargames Vault.

Alan

[madman]

Anybody still playing this?

I have played about a half dozen games now with different opponents or as an umpire and have some feedback and thoughts on where to take this. I am looking for like minded gamers willing to tweak a system to make it what we would like to play. Thank you in advance.

Stephen

[madman]

Still looking for players or people interested in this period.

Tom are you still out there? If so please drop and email. Thank you.

Stephen

[NKL Aerotom]

Hey Stephen, I’m still here – I sent you an email.

Tom Jensen - http://ostfrontpublishing.com/

[alan]

Hi Tom et al, I have 28mm figures as well as 6mm for this theatre.  I have about 60 each of Soviet, DRA and Mujahideen figures with heavy weapon supports along with 3 BMPs, 1 BTR60, a T55 and an BRDM.

Any suggestions or thoughts on making Hind and Seek work in that scale?  We do have a large 14×7 play area.

Alan

[alan]

Tom,

Another thought, do you think the rules could be adapted to game the like of the Second Gulf War in 20mm?  Just wondering if they could deal with asymmetric combat in built-up areas such as Fallujah.

Alan

 

PS Just noticed Cornered Wolf: would they work better?

[NKL Aerotom]

Hi Alan, you could try doubling all movement rates and ranges for your 28mm miniatures, if you have squads grouped together in 5-8 or so individual soldiers, you could treat them as a regular infantry unit in Hind & Seek, tracking their morale etc. You could even remove a soldier each time they take casualties (although perhaps don’t remove the last 1 or 2 soldiers unless the unit is destroyed). It should still work on a 6′ x 4′, although obviously a larger table is desirable. I would probably recommend smaller points values for games of that scale too – perhaps 50 or 75 points (2 or 3 strength) in forces, although fool around with those values until the number of miniatures feels right for you. Cornered Wolf would also work for this period and scale quite nicely, although its a lot more chaotic and random than Hind & Seek – randomized activation, randomized forces, complete chaos from turn 1 🙂

I’ll have to get back to you re: 20mm 2nd Gulf war, but I’m hoping one of our other players can chime in with some of the additions / house rules they have come up with, including 2nd Gulf war and a bunch of other nations beyond Soviets and Mujahideen.

 

Tom Jensen - http://ostfrontpublishing.com/

[madman]

I am sorry but I only play 6mm. I have played Chain of Command and Bolt Action WWII games in 28mm. I have played once Skirmish Sangin in 28 and enjoyed that. Remember the unit scale here. Units are groups of from 4 to a dozen fighters for “squads” with weapons teams of two to four fighters. You would be moving either trays of figures or using a couple guys to represent a squad. Personally I think 28 and 15 is better suited to skirmish where each guy is considered separately and you are dealing with squad to platoon sized actions (half a dozen to say four or five dozen guys. I have played a game of Force on Force with a Soviet Afghan scenario which is somewhat closer to halfway between skirmish and H&S. BTW we did use my 6mm figures and a “game board” about 11″ x 17″ in area. Sorry I don’t know cornered wolf (Chechnya perhaps?).

Sorry I have to dig up my work on H&S. Basically I am trying to satisfy both myself and some opponents. We both have different wants and objectives wrt Soviet Afghan games. I really like H&S and see it as a basis as opposed to my opponents who have proposed modifying other rules. Here is a quick run down (from memory so please give me some slack if later I recant something said here) of what I am looking to change and who is the driving factor.

My background is playing Tractics back in the ’70s and ’80s against a professional (he certainly seemed like it) rules lawyer. We had endless “discussions” about how far exposed a unit was and whether we should give it bonus defenses or roll for hit location and ignore hits where it was covered. Because of this I developed a love of hex based games, even using miniatures, especially Conflict of Heroes which defines an entire hex based on the predominate terrain. This ends a lot of arguments. Because of this my first modification is implementing hexes. I also have a few ping pong table size terrain sheets covered by RAFM iron on hexes in 2″ size.

Another area I want to address is modifying the IGO UGO game sequence. After getting back into gaming after a 25 year hiatus the way modern systems handle “friction” has been an eye opener and a welcome improvement from systems of old. Originally I wanted to go with full friction in the game and eliminate the IGO UGO but after discussing it with an insightful opponent I am now looking at implementing a method of interrupting a unit’s actions. That seems better suited to the rest of the game system and the results I would like to achieve.

I will get more into details if people would like. I am in contact with Tom and will be passing my ideas through him first as I still see H&S as a staring point.

But other areas brought up are the plethora of condition, identification or other counters which can accompany a unit on the game board. By judicious use of identification on the game pieces, and making assumptions about combat protocols (all units with some exceptions will be “gone to ground”) should reduce the on board paperwork. I would like to make leaders part of the system, but just how and where and what effects… What research I have done indicates the availability of radios for the Mujahideen has a great effect on tactics and deployment (I want to introduce coverage for different time periods in the system).

Sorry I have lots more but have to find my handwork.

I don’t see why this system couldn’t handle other asymmetrical periods. I still stick with the miniature scale limits though. For Gulf War and later campaigns, in addition to updated weapons stats, you also have to consider how the local populace would react to either side’s forces. During the Soviet Afghan war, and reflected in the game, almost all locals outside of the larger population centres were solidly behind the Mujahideen forces. Based on my recent reading many of the later groups, such as the Taliban, ISIS and others would be much less likely or not at all to have the locals provide some of the assets as outlined in the game and may be located in areas where they are seen as the invading force. You could have ISIS playing the part of the Soviets trying to take a town in Northern Iraq from a local group of Kurds. For some further ideas look to Armageddon War by Flying Pig games.

Myself I am considering a variant of H&S for an imagination campaign sometime in the future or given opponents who don’t want a Sov-Afghan war game. I could see it working for other conflicts in Central Asia (Chechnya), South Asia (Rohingya or Tamils), Africa, Central or South America or possibly a Pacific Island.

[Scorpio_Rocks]

I have promised Tom I will upload some of our house rules and/or army lists if folks are interested? We currently have lists for:

UK (Afghanistan), UK (NI), UK (Oman/Radfan/Aden), USA/USMC (Afghan), USMC (Gulf), USA/USMC (Iraq), Israel (Invasion of Lebanon), Israel (2nd Intifada), PLO, IRA, Taliban, ISIS, French UN (Yugoslavia), France (Gulf/Afghan).

In the meantime a couple of pictures:

[madman]

Thank you Mark. That would be great and may answer many questions. Is there an area for files here If not where to download them? Maybe on Boardgamegeek as the H&S section there is very bare.

I find this site is very open to different scales and thoughts.

[Author]

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