Home Forums WWII Hollow charge rounds vs tanks

Viewing 11 posts - 1 through 11 (of 11 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #60746
    Les Hammond
    Participant

    What’s to stop a gamer with a 15cm SiG33 on the table using hollow charge rounds against tanks if it has a “book penetration” of 206mm?

    I assume also if you can get a hit at longer ranges it will still ‘penetrate’ that thickness of armour as it isn’t KE dependant?

    • This topic was modified 3 years, 3 months ago by Les Hammond.

    6mm France 1940

    http://les1940.blogspot.co.uk/
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/386297688467965/

    #60752
    Norm SNorm S
    Participant

    I think one has to view this from role and function rather than potential capability. The SiG33 was a mobile artillery piece, that was its function and its thin armour and ammunition load would reflect that and its position in the battle (i.e. towards the rear) would also reflect that.

    I seem to recall that the punch of a Hollow Charge round is typically its diameter up to 2 x its diameter, so a 150mm round would punch through (in a cone shape) between 150 – 300mm of armour against steel plate (presumably to the vertical). Spin would reduce this and accuracy from a low velocity weapon would likewise reduce hit opportunity.

    If I were using a Sig33 in direct action (I would want to avoid that), I would give it the potential to knock-out a tank, but would tend to stack the risks up against a SiG that was prepared to go toe-to-toe  with an enemy tank that has a prime function of knocking out other armour. I think in most situations if a SiG thought enemy armour was about, it would feel sufficiently threatened to move away from the threat.

    Out of interest, have a look at the Soviet S.U. 152. This was an artillery howitzer on a properly armoured chassis and it certainly had an anti-tank capability and role. It’s closed hull compartment and good armour gave it a more front line role, but it was slow loading and had a low ammo payload.

    Because we like all our big tanks etc on the table (and why not!), we tend to play in something of a cartoon world, where we have tank engagements typically at 300 – 700 metres. A typical tank engagement might more commonly be at around 1500m and the crew of a German 88mm armed JagdPanther for example had tactical training that they should maintain a gap of around 2000 metres to engage the enemy, so that their big gun could reach out, but their significant armour could keep them safe at that range.

     

    #60774
    irishserbirishserb
    Participant

    I’m guessing that typically, the round was only readily available, when pointedly anticipating encountering a fixed concrete/metal emplacement, and that otherwise, the HC round was not typically available.  If it was “randomly” available, it would only be so, in very small quantities.  The main thing stopping a player from using it was that it was a rare, relatively expensive,  inaccurate, short ranged round, designed for hitting things that didn’t move.

    #60788
    John D SaltJohn D Salt
    Participant

    Does it make an enormous amount of difference, cosmically speaking? Yes, a 15cm HL/A round will be practically guarantied to send any tank to the junkyard with a single hit. But so, I suggest, will plain 15cm HE.

    It’s going to make a mediocre tank-hunter, as the bulk of the gun makes it hard to track moving targets, the bulk of the ammo controls the rate of fire to a pretty glacial pace for tank-shooting purposes, and the low muzzle velocity means high sensitivity to ranging errors and a low probability of a hit, especially a first-shot hit, at any range beyond the closest. Mounting the gun on a tall and lightly-armoured chassis, as for the Grille, does nothing to improve the outlook in a tank fight. Infantry guns might be expected to take on all sorts of things, but if it’s tanks I would want to do so from a well-dug position against targets approaching along known and pre-measured routes, and ideally halted by an obstacle.

    During WW2 a British study considered the value of HEAT as the main anti-tank nature — I believe it was Zuckermann who suggested equipping battalion anti-tank platoons with half a dozen a carrier-sized vehicles carrying a large-calibre low-velocity HEAT-firing weapon protected by thick sloped armour. Comparison of the 95mm tank howitzer firing HEAT and the 6-pdr 7cwt firing conventional shot showed that the latter had about three times the first-shot hit probability at 1000 yards.

    All the best,

    John.

    #63038
    Jonathan EllisonJonathan Ellison
    Participant

    Because we like all our big tanks etc on the table (and why not!), we tend to play in something of a cartoon world, where we have tank engagements typically at 300 – 700 metres. A typical tank engagement might more commonly be at around 1500m and the crew of a German 88mm armed JagdPanther for example had tactical training that they should maintain a gap of around 2000 metres to engage the enemy, so that their big gun could reach out, but their significant armour could keep them safe at that range.

    According to “Applied Operations Research” (Plenum Press, New York, 1988, by Shephard, Hartley, Haysman, Thorpe and Bathe):

    “90% of engagements occur at less than 2200 yards;
    80% of engagements occur at less than 1500 yards;
    50% of engagements occur at less than 650 yards.”

    But this is on the Western front, I haven’t any references to the East where the range of engagements may have been longer due to the nature of the terrain.

    JonathanE

    #63042
    John D SaltJohn D Salt
    Participant

    The classic Russian rule-of-thumb given in Biryukov and Melnikov’s “Anti-Tank Warfare” is that in the Great Patriotic War it took 1-2 shots to score a hit on a tank at 300 metres, 8-10 shots at 1000 metres.

    Zaloga and Ness’ “Red Army Handbook 1939-1945” (Alan Sutton, Thrupp, 1988) gives on page 179 a table of the ranges in metres at which Soviet tanks and assault guns were knocked out by 75mm and 88mm guns in 1943-44, as follows:

    Range_______75mm gun_____88mm gun
    100-200_______10.0%_________4.0%
    200-400_______26.1%________14.0%
    400-600_______33.5%________18.0%
    600-800_______14.5%________31.2%
    800-1000_______7.0%________13.5%
    1000-1200______4.5%_________8.5%
    1200-1400______3.6%_________7.6%
    1400-1600______0.4%_________2.0%
    1600-1800______0.4%_________0.7%
    1800-2000______0.0%_________0.5%

    The original has omitted the line for 600-800 metres, so I calculated the entries for that line by subtracting the sum of each column from 100%.

    You will see that the median success range is in the 400-600m band for 75mm guns, and 600-800m for 88mm guns.

    This all suggests to me that engagement ranges were not noticeably greater on the Eastern front than the Western.

    All the best,

    John.

    #63043
    PatricePatrice
    Participant

    What’s to stop a gamer with a 15cm SiG33 on the table using hollow charge rounds against tanks

    Do you mean at short range? The question is: What’s to stop a gamer to bring such a piece in such a situation? He should avoid it at all costs. Even if successful it should deprive him of victory points.

    I’ve never been near a 15cm SiG33, but during my (compulsory) military service in 1980 in a French 155mm artillery battery we were told that firing at “hausse zéro” was theoretically possible if the position was suddenly attacked by tanks or infantry but it was certainly not something we would want.

    http://www.argad-bzh.fr/argad/en.html
    https://www.anargader.net/

    #63125
    Ivan SorensenIvan Sorensen
    Participant

    Soviet guns were typically issued a few rounds of antitank shot, so I suppose nothing prevents it other than the scenario design.

    The thing would be pretty vulnerable to everything in the field, when in direct sight, so it’d even out.

    Nordic Weasel Games
    https://www.wargamevault.com/browse/pub/5701/Nordic-Weasel-Games?src=browse5701

    #63146
    John D SaltJohn D Salt
    Participant

    What’s to stop a gamer with a 15cm SiG33 on the table using hollow charge rounds against tanks

    Do you mean at short range? The question is: What’s to stop a gamer to bring such a piece in such a situation? He should avoid it at all costs. Even if successful it should deprive him of victory points.

    I’ve never been near a 15cm SiG33, but during my (compulsory) military service in 1980 in a French 155mm artillery battery we were told that firing at “hausse zéro” was theoretically possible if the position was suddenly attacked by tanks or infantry but it was certainly not something we would want.

    The calibres may be much the same, but there is a world of difference between a 15cm sIG and an obusier de 155mm.

    You (as I don’t need to tell you) were an artilleryman, a proper gunner providing indirect fire support to the combined-arms team, capable of massing fire effect quickly over a wide geographical area through reliable and responsive communications in a centralised but flexible command and control system. Of course tanks turning up on your doorstep is bad news — apart from anything else, it makes a mess of the fire plan you are supposed to be shooting in support of other people. In British artillery doctrine, “close defence of the battery position” is the only mission that has priority over “final defensive fire”, normally regarded as the highest priority task. In British artillery tradition, regiments do not carry colours or guidons; the guns are the colours, and the rallying point is always the nearest gun that will fire. Consequently, on those occasions in WW2 when gun positions were attacked by tanks, the order was invariably “guns will be fought to the muzzle”, and very often the tanks came off worse. American gunners did the same at Anzio, and Italian gunners in the Western desert, sometimes continuing to serve their guns until they were physically overrun by British infantry tanks their guns could not penetrate. I doubt that French gunners would do any less.

    The sIGs are, as the I indicates, infantry guns. They are not proper guns for proper gunners, they are what the Germans called the “gypsy artillery” and the French in 14-18 “les crapouillots”, the close-range accompanying artillery or trench guns who will be right up at the sharp end, and usually firing over open sights at targets they can see. By field artillery standards, they only ever operate at short range. The 15cm sIG was the largest such beast ever to be accepted for service — other infantry guns were 70mm, 75mm, 76mm, 95mm or 105mm — and were a regimental-level weapon, but still essentially accompanying guns, rather than “proper” artillery.

    While the size and clumsiness of the gun would be a handicap, vulnerability probably would not — it is surprisingly hard to kill an artillery piece, normally requiring a direct hit from a light field-artillery shell, or a medium shell in the gun pit.

    All the best,

    John.

    #63392
    Les Hammond
    Participant

    That’s very interesting!

    Range_______75mm gun_____88mm gun 100-200_______10.0%_________4.0% 200-400_______26.1%________14.0% 400-600_______33.5%________18.0% 600-800_______14.5%________31.2% 800-1000_______7.0%________13.5% 1000-1200______4.5%_________8.5% 1200-1400______3.6%_________7.6% 1400-1600______0.4%_________2.0% 1600-1800______0.4%_________0.7% 1800-2000______0.0%_________0.5%

    6mm France 1940

    http://les1940.blogspot.co.uk/
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/386297688467965/

    #63431
    chris cornwell
    Participant

    I’ve seen players in any number of games try this tactic – different rule systems, Spearhead, CD III, a CD derivative even FOW ..it always ends badly for the Grille. As soon as these rather valuable assets poke their noses out too far they get clobbered by mortars, artillery and AT fire. As they should.

Viewing 11 posts - 1 through 11 (of 11 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.