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  • #58755
    Just Jack
    Participant

    All,

    I’ve played quite a few games of IABSM; while I have some issues with the card-driven activation system, it still intrigues me. I want to try again, and I’m realizing part of my frustration is the combat system.

    Has anyone tried a simpler combat mechanism, and wouldn’t mind sharing?

    I understand very well how the number of actions per squad/section are tied to/impacted by remaining members of the squad/section, and how ‘shock’ plays into it. It’s very clever, but it’s simply more complicated than I want to deal with at company level, particularly playing solo.

    I’m looking for something more along the lines of 1 base is one squad/section (not single figure removal), and combat results are along the lines of:
    Pinned (shoot at penalty, melee with penalty, won’t move until rallied)
    Suppressed (melee at greater penalty, no move or shoot until rallied)
    Combat ineffective (stand removed)

    Vehicles are in the fight, out of the fight, or driven back to rally.

    I’ve also thought about ‘regular’ units get two actions, pinned 1 (move, shoot, or rally), suppressed 1 (rally only, or maybe even 0, have to be rallied by a Big Man). Maybe elite units start with 3 actions, really poor units with 1?

    Anyone tried this, or any thoughts on how to go about it?

    V/R,
    Jack

    #58759
    MartinR
    Participant

    Why not keep the card activation but just use the combat system from Crossfire, or even from 5Core Company Command?

    "Mistakes in the initial deployment cannot be rectified" - Helmuth von Moltke

    #58779
    Shaun Travers
    Participant

    Hello Jack,

     

    Sorry but way to busy to do a decent response but yes, after being introduced to IABSM, I wrote some rules that used 1 base = 1 squad rules but with IABSM card activation and 3 actions for regulars etc.  Played them a few times with a friend and seemed to work fine.  I will see what I can dig up.  Note that my current 6mm are derived from IABSM card activation with 1 base = 1 section and results are pinned, suppressed and KO but no longer get 3 dice for actions (the latter to really speed up the game).

    I have some ideas on how easy it could be (hah, easy he says!) to do what you ask it but it may be a few days before I can get to this.  The one that comes to mind is you throw d6 as per normal for combat and count hits where 1 – pinned, 2 – suppressed 3 = KO. Hits could be as simple as 4+ is a hit. Dice or the to hit number  can go up or down based on range, green/regular/veteran, cover/no cover.  And if you used dice for other things e.g. movement, you will have less dice for combat.  One thing I came across recently was the GoalSystem RPG that on a roll of a dice has 1-3 = 0 successes, 4-5 is 1 success, 6 is 2 successes.  I have used this for my last two games and it worked fantastic.  If it was me I would use this instead of 4+ to hit – this way a single die roll still has a chance of causing a suppression (on a 6).

    #58789
    Just Jack
    Participant

    Martin – In the overall scheme of things, I love those two rulesets’ combat mechanisms for their simplicity, but I wanted to consult with guys that play IABSM regularly to make sure I wasn’t going to lose out on, or break, some other aspect of the rules.  The action dice + figure removal + shock work to give a really, really subtle ‘grinding down’ of squad/section capability; I’m not scared of combat results being more ‘sudden’ or decisive, I just want to make sure I’m not losing out on something I’m not seeing.  In the end, the most simple answer is usually the right one though, right?  Use Crossfire or 5Core combat mechanisms!

    Shaun – You and simple DO NOT belong in the same sentence; Panda either, for that matter! 😉
    But I’m smelling what you’re cooking, except for the Goalsystem comment.  When you speak of rolling for successes, are you talking about orders (like Black Powder’s activation system: I want this unit to move up, fire, then move again, I roll, and they only had two successes so they just move up and fire), or combat successes (i.e., a unit can take three hits prior to being knocked out)?  Regarding the last sentence, rolling 4+ to hit could still have a chance to suppress if you do a second roll (save roll, or effects roll), right?  I do like a single roll (like 5Core) though!

    Thanks guys!

    V/R,
    Jack

    #58806
    Shaun Travers
    Participant

    Hello Jack,

    Working backward s- no saving rolls.  I, like you, prefer single rolls of the die/dice to get the result.  By successes I mean “hits” (yeah, I left that bit out in my rush).  So 1 hit will pin, 2 hits will suppress and 3 will kill.  a 4-5 result on a single die is 1 “hit” and a 6 result on a single die counts as 2 “hits”.   So if you are rolling 3 dice, you can have anything from 0 to 6 hits (although anything more than 3 is actually a small percentage – ok I looked it up: to get 4, 5 or 6 hits under this system with three dice is 13% ).  I do have a recent long rambling blog post that does explain this tye of to hit. It is the last combat table in the the last 1/3 of the post and (the first two thirds is going through the two other combat tables types I went through to end up where I am today (blog post is here: http://shaun-wargaming-minis.blogspot.com.au/2017/01/musing-on-state-of-play-for-my-ww2.html )

    I have read Panda’s response and I am with him – I liked everything about IABSM but the combat chart.  I am not as fond as he is of rolling for movement but can live with it as it makes sense in IABSM.  I am tempted, like him, to play it again but just use a different infantry combat chart!

    I looked at my rules i have that were 1 squad = 1 stand and I actually scored damage against the stand.  Each stand have action dice (3 for regular, 2 for green and 4 for vets).  A hit reduce the action dice for that stand by one and at 0 the stand was removed.  I also had some really convoluted rules around pinning and suppression based on the number of dice rolled against it.  Look at this extract from my rules to get the complexity.  This is 2007 before I really got back into gaming and so had time to write complex rules that I was never going to play!  Way to complicated for me now and my rules now are really simple.

    Pinning and suppression

    A stand may become pinned or suppressed through volume of fire.  Any infantry stand or crew served weapon may be pinned or suppressed by infantry or HE fire.  Vehicles may become pinned and suppressed by indirect HE fire only.

    Pinning may occur at any range.  Infantry or direct HE fire suppression may only occur within 12 of the firer.

    Pining and suppression occurs the moment the conditions are met.

    At the Down Time card pinning is removed from a stand and suppression is reduced to only pinned (and then on the following turn it will be removed).

    Two pins become suppression.  Further pins or suppressions have no effect on a stand.

    A pinned unit has a -1 modifier to fire.

    A suppressed unit cannot fire and will only move at ½ the movement rate. A suppressed unit may do no other actions.

    There are two ways to pin a stand:

    • Subject to an HE fire from a gun/mortar greater than 61mm.
    • Roll dice that is 2 less or more than the required to hit number. For example, if the TO HIT required was 4, pinning would result if rolling at least 2 dice.

    There are a number of ways to suppress a stand:

    • Receives a second pin
    • Roll dice equal or greater than the required to hit number. For example, if the TO HIT required was 4, pinning would result if rolling at least 4 dice.
    • Subject to an HE fire from a 2 gun/mortars greater than 61mm and a casualty results
    • Grenades or satchel charges will suppress a room with 1 or more casualties scored

     

     

    #58838
    Just Jack
    Participant

    Shaun,

    Holy Guacamole!  Like I said, you and Panda are not allowed to talk about ‘simple’ 😉

    Having said that, there’s nothing that looks like it wouldn’t work, just more figuring than I’m interested in.

    My only question is, why can vehicles be pinned only by HE indirect fire?  I figured an AP shell bouncing off the armor would do it as well; hell, there are real life cases of MG fire being enough to drive unsupported tanks back.

    Thanks for sharing all that.

    V/R,
    Jack

    #58887
    Shaun Travers
    Participant

    Why can vehicles only be pinned by indirect HE fire?  Because if i allowed them to be pinned generally,then the rules would be simpler, and I couldn’t have that, could I? 🙂  For the rules above, I was basing them on my battalion level rules where 1 vehicles represented 3-6 and so pinning a troop of tanks did not make sense and was too much of a penalisation.  I carried this over to the 1:1 rules above. I have changed my stance since then and in the name of simplicity vehicles and infantry are effected the same by fire (for my 1:1 rules and my 1:5 rules).

    #58907
    Just Jack
    Participant

    Gotcha.  I see what you’re getting at regarding over-penalization at the battalion level (platoon level stands).  I’d still figure that direct fire from enemy tanks could have a ‘pinning’ effect on a platoon/troop of tanks, but if you’re worried about over-penalization I’m sure you’ve got other mechanisms built in.

    V/R,
    Jack

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