- 07/01/2018 at 20:51 #81115
I had pledged I was finished with my Imagi-Nations . After six of them all completed I was not going to do another. Well so much for that I am now working in my seventh, again in he 18th Century. The six I have are all parodies of real life powers of the century.
Bad Zu Wurst- Prussia
Saxe Burlap und Schleswig- Beerstein- Austria
Ikea– Ottoman Empire
Gulagia- Russia (capital is at Gullagin’s Island.
The Grand Duchy of the Grand Duke of Gorgonzola.
Well I’ve started on another one.
Iroquoia= An Imagination created from the Hodenensaunee- The Iroquois Confederation in North America. I have to get a better name for it, Basically it’s an army produced from a society which managed more historical development to where it could field an army capable of taking on any of the above other Imagi-Nations. This will for me include designing and having commissioned as sculpts from a sculptor for miniatures for figures of soldiers that never existed like Iroquois Light and Heavy Cavalry, artillerists etc. The rest can all be adapted to my gaming system. As is obvious from the titles of the other armies I have made, there is a large contingent of whimsy and fantasy in the armies but no magic or the like. Thus the armies of Iroquoia will use light mobile coehern type mortars for their light artillery. Make sense, the high arc of a coehern can be more effective in wooded terrain than a straight-flat trajectory gun. Also expect rocket batteries. Of course it’s all fantastic and fantasy but it’s fun.07/01/2018 at 21:37 #8112807/01/2018 at 22:09 #81136zippyfusenetParticipant
I’m interested to see what sculpts you come up with for these troops.
You'll shoot your eye out, kid!07/01/2018 at 23:23 #81140
I’ve already been working with a sculptor who has made two original figures for me. One is a Potsdam “giant” Grenadier of the regiment of “giants” raised by Frederick William I, Frederick the Great’s Father. It is gorgeous. He also has made a drummer boy for the regiment for me dressed ‘Alla Turca” in turban and plume and kaftan, which many regiments of the day used.
I am particularly pleased with the artist. I have the seen the photos of the above and they are great. I am waiting delivery of them in a day or so when I will send them off to a company in the states to have the molds and masters made and the production masters made. Once I “prove” the system that the artist creations work with the castings, and the process works, I will give him a second commission.
It will be a cooperative effort between us and I will only give him general suggestions and he will interpret them artistically. For example I’m thinking of modifying points of Indian Costume poking out the cuirass for a heavy cavalryman, or plates of iron sewn together. The big element will be the headdress or helmet and I was thinking of a boiled leather (cuir bolli) in something like a high peak with feathers hanging from the back spine, in imitation kind of like a Nappy Cuirassier helmet or just a frame on top of a steel “secrete” or skull cap. Another idea might be to adapt a tricorn by letting the brim down in the back and attaching feathers to that.
I also want to do other figures . I might even make a whole line. I don’t want to make figures everyone else makes, but specialty figures, and ones of a kind. I know there’s no money in this at all, but it would be nice to have, and to do something.
Suggestions have come in for enginer officer figures, and court ladies in full gala dress, Marie Antoinette in Shepherdess costume, Maria Theresia mounted with full regalia at a review.
I want to make scenes like Napoleon bent over a table signing his abdication in 1914, but I also would like to make a diorama, Cherubino and Figaro, which is from the opera “La Nozze Di Figaro” marriage of Figaro, of the scene where the Duke has decided to end Cherubino’s sniffing around his wife by sending him off to the regiment. Figaro sings then his famous aria “Non pedri..” singing how instead of disturbing the sleep of all the young maids he’ll be marching through mud with a heavy knapsack on his back, and racking up lots of glory but not much money. “La Fanfare de Tromboni, Le Bombardi de canone!”
The figure of the page cherubino will be of a small boy with a huge grenadier miter on his head cocked forward giving the salute while he has his leg raised in a charicature of a goose step, while Figaro is dancing next to him beating a small child’s drum
I know… crazy I don’t expect ever to sell a few.
Also like to do one of Louis XVI on the scaffold or more military figures no one makes like Russian Chevalier Guard of the Russo Polish Wars (huge tumbling plumes, bat wings on the helmets, and the like.07/01/2018 at 23:31 #81141kyoteblueParticipant
I was thinking about your Iroquois and the Commanche had horses stolen from the Spanish in late 1600, so you could maybe use them as your Cavalry.08/01/2018 at 00:42 #81142McKinstryParticipant
I could see Iroquois warriors using skis in a similar fashion to the Finns.
The tree of Life is self pruning.08/01/2018 at 02:43 #81143zippyfusenetParticipant
Eureka makes some entertaining 18th century figures. I picked up their Baron Muenchausen set last year, I must paint it some time. A while back, someone was asking for women in Empire dresses. Eureka has them., in their ‘Corpse and Musket’ French Revolutionary Zombies list. But I don’t mean to intrude on your fantasy, Otto.
You'll shoot your eye out, kid!08/01/2018 at 08:44 #81165
I think Indians were smart people and showed how they adapted to and adopted many items of European culture readily. Horses and cows, sheep and goats, chickens and ducks, the colonists they raided from they could have had aplenty if they wanted to engage in serious animal husbandry. After reading Wiliam Cronin’s “Changes in the Land” and many other such anthropological and environmental stories, I think they could have easily done it, and they could have adapted the settlement of the Europeans had they been able to accept modified European ideas. Not only animal husbandry, but blacksmithing and other artisanal crafts could have been learned which would have broken the bonds of “gift giving” that put them in bondage to the Europeans. For example, the real enemy to the Indian and especially the Iroquois confederacy was no the settler but the land speculator who sold large tracts of Indian land to the settlers and then let the settlers go out and take it. Had the Indian been able to cut out the middleman of the land speculator it might have been different. That is where the Indian sold land to individual farmers, or also modified their idea of land sovereignty as Cronin shows. The Indians already had the idea of sovereignty over the land but saw it mainly as the “usufruct” of the land as far as hunting. They were quite able to make wars against the Cherokee and others over hunting, why not political sovereignty as residence. The Indians also as part of these sales were always offered the chance to send some of their young men to the schools the white men set up. Mostly they judged this to be no real life for a man. However, had they, it would not take more than a dozen “shyster” lawyers to be able to hold their own in any courtroom against land claims put up by the speculators. A few Indian lawyers would have tied up these people in litigation for decades.
And besides this is Imagi-Nations where we can do what we want.
And in the end, if the Speculators decided to use their political influence with the crown to send an Army against Iroquoia, if the Iroquois had an army, there, on the scene, which did not have to be transported across the water…
There’s no cause or drum to beat here. It’s purely to make nifty armies and units. I have a system for my games which you all have probably heard about elsewhere. Rather than tying my brain in knots trying to figure up mechanisms of making Europeans and Indians equal on the table top, and bearing in mind I don’t like gaming massacres of isolated farmhouses, the best way to do it is to simply accept equality. The game system provides a means of setting up battles quickly and workably. There are two strategic units, the Army and the Brigade. All armies and brigades have the same units in them and are identical across national lines. Armies are of one type (mostly) and Brigades are of many types but a smaller number of units so there are infantry brigades, elite brigades, artillery brigades and so on. An infantry brigade of Saxe Burlap and Schleswig Beerstein und Saxe Burlap and one of Bad Zu Wurst are identical in numbers and values, and have four infantry regiments, one dtragoon regiment, one light gun, and one wagon and a number of officers. In setting up a game you can a maximum of two units in a force. The legal combinations are one brigade, two brigades, one army, and one army and one brigade. This is usually derived from the campaign.
An Army is much larger and has five line infantry regiments, two elite regiments (which you can make either light infantry or Grenadiers, or Engineers) and if you chose light infantry you can have them in several organizations and break a unit down to six stands of SCUM or skirmishers. There are also four heavy cavalry and four light cavalry regiments, two light, and two heavy guns and five wagons and a passel of officers.
Now… I use the same for my Turkish Army. It has five regiments of regular infantry same as line infantry, two regiments of elites which can be either Jannisaries (grenadiers) or Bashi-Bazooks (light infantry) four regiments of Spahi’ heavy cavalry, four units of Light Cavalry (tatars perhaps) two light and two heavy guns. I allow the Turks, if they wish to convert all their guns to the big super-heavy but immobile ones they used if they wish.
I want therefore to keep the Iroquois “army” within that format. Five regiments of braves acting as line infantry, two regiments of Elite (Grenadiers from white settlers or light infantry as Courier DuBois as skirmishers etc. with light and heavy cavalry etc. and a few other choices special to the Indians . I admit this is not historical at all, but … admit it… wouldn’t you love to see a regiment of European colonists in Indian lands in long overcoat advancing on skates? With a light gun pulled by deer?08/01/2018 at 09:03 #81166
On the subject of Civilians, the Eureka figures are OK, but the Empire dresses are not that great and not really historical. (I know, I know, NOW you are quibbling about historical accuracy– Otto!!!) Sorry… I am looking for figures that looked like they stepped out of scenes from Barry Lyndon. Marie Antoinette and Catherine the Great (the 1930’s ones not the modern remakes. William Suren used to make civilians in this vein with character, the modern makers are too wooden. I want for example, a figure of the Duc of Orleans to be as slimy and oily as Joseph Schildkraut was in the film.
One of my on-again-off-again projects is a game of civilian life in the 18th century. That’s not some sort of ginned up version of En-Garde. There will be literally NO combat in this game, only social combat between great families for the patronage at court or marriage alliances, and the swapping of ministries and positions. And I also like to make dioramas which I use on the table top in games as well.09/01/2018 at 01:14 #81251McKinstryParticipant
The politics of land speculation in the House of Burgess in Virginia is well documented and every bit as vicious as one could want. Vote rigging for approving land sales west of the Appalachians would make a cutthroat game.
The indepence movement in Virginia was as much or more about the Crown cramping the machinations of the speculators in favor of peace with the natives as any loftier ideals.
The tree of Life is self pruning.09/01/2018 at 15:06 #81294
The nice thing about Imagi-Nations is that we are free to make up a backstory to suit. We only need plausibility pushed to the extreme and not historical exegesis. The Indians had no voice in the affairs in the house of Burgess or in that of the dealings with the Walking Grant in Pennsylvania, or New York. There would be held consultations and “conferences” with the Indians at some remote point in the wilderness where the Indians would express their grievances, usually to the very people who were aggrieving them, and the latter went back and said they agreed to everything. A cadre of Inian Lawyers would have done far more simply by pure obstructionism in the courts than an army of 25,000 men.
As William Cronin’s book “Changes in the Land” showed, the different ideas of land use and land tenure hampered any such mutual understanding.
But for our project in war games fortunately ideas are much more transferrable than habits. The hunger for land which was the driving force for expansion from the colonies was easily handled by the Indians if you separated the speculators from the process. Most important it would have ensured a flow of cash into the Indians able to finance their own protection.
As I said, again, we only need plausibility and very little of that. What I want is to make a model of an Iroquois Army or what one would look like. Remember nothing prevents them from learning, adapting, and adopting.11/01/2018 at 00:43 #81452
OK, I have most of the easy work done on figuring how i’m going to handle light and heavy artillery and get the Hodonensaunee their light and heavy cavalry, incluiding their renowned Longhouseholdguards. I’ve even decided on some of the names. Chief Bear Shitting in the Woods, Chief Falling Rock, Chief Rolling Rock, Princess Minnietonka. and so forth. “regiments ” named Wamsutta, Winnebego or Bagawino, The hard part is the back-story.
We have Princess Trixie, the Valley Girl of Saxe Burlap und Schleswig Beerstein, King Faustus the Grump and Prince Umberto of Bad Zu-Wurst and sibling rivalry run amuck. we have the sweet chipper wholesomeness of the cookie baking Tzarina of all the Gulags, then there’s the Grand Duke of the Grand Duchy of Gorgonozola where all the worlds a stage and his ministers are simply players thereon pelted with Bravo’s, bouquets or rotten tomatoes, and of course the Nattering Nabob of Negativism Sha Na-Na of Ikea who makes people go looking for the mutes with bowstrings.
Now I have to work out something for Iroquoia.
Hmmm maybe a chain of exclusive lounges and entertainment palaces throughout the land drawing a lively tourist trade from puritanical New England where they don’t have dancing and gambling, and gala show-girls in feathered gowns, beaded pasties, with lounge lizard comics… Hmm. “The Blue Beaver Lounge…” The Taj Mohegan where you get indian style entertainment provided by the other Indians– Venison Tandoori, … Bear Curry.
Maybe a land where all the Indian villiages produce local “handicrafts” for sale in the white man’s land like those little cedar boxes with the name of this or that forest clearing , or fake sculptures of Indian Tommahawks, and peace pipes to hang above your fireplace , or better yet, little tom-toms with little beaters you can buy for your friends 8 or 9 year olds along with a few pounds of “Indian Candy” highly sugared to give to your grand kids, or even better yet pictures of wolves, moose and Indians on forest scenes painted on black velvet where the eyes follow you around the room. Not only that here you can buy genuine Indian Maple Syrup (made at the Aunt Jemima plant by the people who make oven mits) and of course, Big Chief Pine tree’s potency restorer- Rock-hard which is sold under the counter as sort of an Indian’s revenge against the white man for all his cheap whisky. Of course a line of gag-gifts like the arrow on a loop of wire to wear on your head, “woo woo whoopee cushions? False Scalped wigs, T shirts that say “I was at the Monongahela and all I got was this lousy T-shirt… Edible Wampum belts.’
A series of theme parks, Dutch wonderland, Thanksgiving Land, etc. Canoe rides, early versions of water parks,
hmmmm11/01/2018 at 17:38 #81553Paul HowarthParticipant
Hmmm. You might want to try and help yourself, Otto. Whilst caricatures of a few privileged monarchs might fly, I’m not sure stereotyping an entire people is the way forward.
12/01/2018 at 00:39 #81611
- This reply was modified 4 years ago by Paul Howarth.
But it’s not a stereotype at all. No one says Indians are actually that way.27/11/2021 at 14:18 #165325Paul HowardParticipant
I’m mostly interested in rulesets for imagi-nations gaming. There will by definition be a lack of published support for imagi-nations gaming since everybody has their own. I’ve thought about taking up 25mm-28mm Historicals with a semi-universal ruleset based on d10 so that I could, for instance, play Vikings versus Mongols or Han Chinese. In particular, I want to play a four-hour game with 250-ish miniatures on a side. Obviously a Medieval Revolting Peasants army would have more minis, and modern-day USMC would have fewer…27/11/2021 at 14:32 #165328Paul HowardParticipant
The thing is, I’ve known some Cherokees, an Arikara, and a couple of Comanches, and they would all be deeply offended by your suggestions. You should *hear* the things that Indians say about Caucasians, in part because of a perceived need to offend us to raise awareness.27/11/2021 at 15:38 #165331Guy FarrishParticipant
I appreciate your feelings re stereotyping entire people/nations/minorities even in a ‘humorous’ fashion and empathise and agree.
However assuming the ‘Otto Schmidt’ here is the same as the Society of Daisy ‘Otto Schmidt’ (and given the imaginations theme and style of ‘humour’ I can only imagine it is) you may want to address someone else regarding this.
I believe Otto died over two years ago and won’t be able to respond.27/11/2021 at 23:39 #165338Tony SParticipant
The thing is, I’ve known some Cherokees, an Arikara, and a couple of Comanches, and they would all be deeply offended by your suggestions. You should *hear* the things that Indians say about Caucasians, in part because of a perceived need to offend us to raise awareness.
When I was a young man, I lived on an Ojibwe reserve for a summer. When I got there, I stepped out of my car and a little five year old boy wandered over to me, looked up and said
“Yes,” I cleverly answered, because I was.
He nodded very solemnly and strolled off.
Honestly, I was treated politely enough by everyone. However, I remember one day there was a Pow-wow, where all the tourists came and snapped photos and bought things. But the real Pow-wow happened at night, after the tourists all left. My ex’s family were all getting ready, and I started putting my jacket on to go with them. They all looked at me. I was told “some of the braves get liquored up, and you’re white”. Yes, that exact phrase; I remember that quite clearly. So I decided to stay in and watch TV instead.
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