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  • #168812
    Avatar photoNot Connard Sage
    Participant

    Anybody have any idea of its status?  The publishing date was early February, but no-one seems to have it in stock yet.

    Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

    #168819
    Avatar photoGuy Farrish
    Participant

    Says it’s available from the Dadi e Piombo shop – I got as far as Paypal payment – 30Euros/£25-98 before I stopped – it didn’t mention postage at all.

    Nothing on the touted UK sites as you say.

    #168839
    Avatar photoNot Connard Sage
    Participant

    Yeah, there are links at the shop to buy books on Amazon. No link for Warbook 3, no digital download at Wargames Vault either.

    Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

    #168849
    Avatar photoGuy Farrish
    Participant

    The link I followed was for Warbook 3, but it was direct from dadi e piombo, not via Amazon, and to ‘Europe’. Are we still ‘Europe’ for this purpose? Dunno.

    Warbook 3 direct

    It was in English and took me to the paypal site. What happens if you press buy after that? Don’t know.

     

    #168851
    Avatar photoNot Connard Sage
    Participant

    The link I followed was for Warbook 3, but it was direct from dadi e piombo, not via Amazon, and to ‘Europe’. Are we still ‘Europe’ for this purpose? Dunno. It was in English and took me to the paypal site. What happens if you press buy after that? Don’t know.

     

    Aye. Direttamente da Italia seems to be the only way to get a copy at present. Their other stuff is on Amazon and Wargames Vault, WB3 ain’t.
    North Star don’t have it either.

    I blame Brexit 🙂

    Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

    #169957
    Avatar photoNot Connard Sage
    Participant

    It appears that only Guy is going to read this. 🙂

    Anyway, my copy arrived from North Star yesterday. Opened package, removed book, looked at index, turned to page 57; Sengoku Japanese 1467-1600.

    Oh dear.

    0-6 Samurai on foot, Composite bow C

    Samurai had largely abandoned the bow for yari by the end of the 15th century, and when firearms were adopted on a large scale in the 1550s bows became increasingly rare among the samurai class.

    Besides which, the lists give ashigaru archers Longbow B which has better stats.

    Hmmm

     

     

     

    Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

    #169964
    Avatar photoJim Webster
    Participant

    Remember that with Impetus, the higher VBU of the Samurai, as opposed to the ashigaru with VBU of 3 or 4 has to be taken into account. Calling the Samurai bow Composite bow C is something which has been done on a lot of the army lists where you have high VBU cavalry. If you look at the Sultanate of Rum army on page 11 light cavalry have composite bow B and heavy cavalry composite bow C.

    Composite bow C exists as a rule mechanism to tweak the firepower of mounted archers who are also good in combat 🙂

    https://jimssfnovelsandwargamerules.wordpress.com/

    #169970
    Avatar photoNot Connard Sage
    Participant

    Remember that with Impetus, the higher VBU of the Samurai, as opposed to the ashigaru with VBU of 3 or 4 has to be taken into account. Calling the Samurai bow Composite bow C is something which has been done on a lot of the army lists where you have high VBU cavalry. If you look at the Sultanate of Rum army on page 11 light cavalry have composite bow B and heavy cavalry composite bow C. Composite bow C exists as a rule mechanism to tweak the firepower of mounted archers who are also good in combat 🙂

     

    You seem to have missed my point.

    These are foot, not mounted, samurai, and in any case bows had dropped out of use among the samurai class during the Sengoku period.

    Foot samurai of the period should be armed with yari or similar, as mounted samurai in the lists are.

    Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

    #169973
    Avatar photoJim Webster
    Participant

    Remember that with Impetus, the higher VBU of the Samurai, as opposed to the ashigaru with VBU of 3 or 4 has to be taken into account. Calling the Samurai bow Composite bow C is something which has been done on a lot of the army lists where you have high VBU cavalry. If you look at the Sultanate of Rum army on page 11 light cavalry have composite bow B and heavy cavalry composite bow C. Composite bow C exists as a rule mechanism to tweak the firepower of mounted archers who are also good in combat 🙂

    You seem to have missed my point. These are foot, not mounted, samurai, and in any case bows had dropped out of use among the samurai class during the Sengoku period. Foot samurai of the period should be armed with yari or similar, as mounted samurai in the lists are.

     

    Whether the samurai should still have bow or not, I’m not that up on the period. But on the rules, the point still remains, Composite Bow C exists as a mechanism within the rules to give to high VBU archers to ensure that their firepower is not ridiculous.

    https://jimssfnovelsandwargamerules.wordpress.com/

    #169982
    Avatar photoMike Headden
    Participant

    Don’t know Impetus so can’t comment on the classification of the bows …. but Samurai of that period with bows? Nah!

    There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

    #170007
    Avatar photoSpurious
    Participant

    Not surprised the list isn’t exactly up-to-date, the Basic Impetus 2 list wasn’t either. I made a few stabs at a fix for that but got distracted writing my own system instead, as you do 😛

    BI’s problem with the mid-1500s onward list was that for some reason there were 3 units of gunners and only 1 unit of Yari infantry. Also VBU 7 Impetus 4 heavy cavalry. In tweaking I was leaning towards VBU 6 I 3 medium cavalry (since high impetus heavy cavalry in the game really seems to generally be the domain of very armored, usually lance-equipped people in chunky formations), about 4 or 5 units of yari ashigaru, 2 samurai on foot, and all bows and guns being skirmishers. I was also leaning towards the yari ashigaru being changed to VBU4 Pike with no Large Unit option to distinguish them from earlier shorter yari equipped units without them turning into just a typical pike block.

    #170008
    Avatar photoNot Connard Sage
    Participant

    Don’t know Impetus so can’t comment on the classification of the bows …. but Samurai of that period with bows? Nah!

    Exactly. Doesn’t really matter what bows they have, they shouldn’t have them! 🙂

     

    Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

    #170010
    Avatar photoNot Connard Sage
    Participant

    Not surprised the list isn’t exactly up-to-date, the Basic Impetus 2 list wasn’t either. I made a few stabs at a fix for that but got distracted writing my own system instead, as you do 😛 BI’s problem with the mid-1500s onward list was that for some reason there were 3 units of gunners and only 1 unit of Yari infantry. Also VBU 7 Impetus 4 heavy cavalry. In tweaking I was leaning towards VBU 6 I 3 medium cavalry (since high impetus heavy cavalry in the game really seems to generally be the domain of very armored, usually lance-equipped people in chunky formations), about 4 or 5 units of yari ashigaru, 2 samurai on foot, and all bows and guns being skirmishers. I was also leaning towards the yari ashigaru being changed to VBU4 Pike with no Large Unit option to distinguish them from earlier shorter yari equipped units without them turning into just a typical pike block.

    The BI2 lists in general don’t work for me outside the ‘classic’ ancients.

    I haven’t really examined any other lists in Warbook 3, but the Kamakura, Muromachi and Sengoku Japanese are a bit off.

    Ashigaru of the period weren’t typically armed with long yari, but the options mean they make up the bulk of the foot troops. And I’m sorry, but missile foot weren’t used mainly as skirmishers, the large bodies of formed foot with bow/arquebus in Japanese prints give a clue.

    I’m not sure samurai could be FL, given how their armour had evolved and the way they fought, but calling them FP isn’t correct either and there isn’t a medium foot classification in the rules.

    No artillery either. That’s a bit of a bugger when they ship off to Korea 🙂

     

    Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

    #170024
    Avatar photoSpurious
    Participant

    The BI2 lists in general don’t work for me outside the ‘classic’ ancients. I haven’t really examined any other lists in Warbook 3, but the Kamakura, Muromachi and Sengoku Japanese are a bit off. Ashigaru of the period weren’t typically armed with long yari, but the options mean they make up the bulk of the foot troops.

    If you mean the earlier ashigaru types then yes, not long spear or longer but the 5+ meter nagae yari of the 1570s+ says otherwise. That they were making them so long is peculiar in and of itself. But given the lists cover such a broad timespan with little structure… eh I really think it’d benefit from being split into at the very least 1467-1540s/1550s-80s/1580s+ to account for the shift in trends.

    And I’m sorry, but missile foot weren’t used mainly as skirmishers, the large bodies of formed foot with bow/arquebus in Japanese prints give a clue. I’m not sure samurai could be FL, given how their armour had evolved and the way they fought, but calling them FP isn’t correct either and there isn’t a medium foot classification in the rules.

    The prints give a clue but the writings generally describe the missile troops not forming blocks for volleys as a European equivalent might, but being formed of multiple small groups, engaging in targeting individuals at short range, operating in front of the main infantry body then moving out to the sides as the formations closed and then continuing to harass from the sidelines. There’s some occasions where they might fit being deployed as a T type unit, but that’s mainly when holding a defensive position like a barricade or fortification.

    I think samurai are counted as FL as it allows for them more freely to make use of interpenetration rules. Or maybe it’s just because they’re counting them akin to early warband stuff in that they’re equipped as heavy infantry but don’t operate in ordered formations, minus the impetuous bit that warbands get? I dunno, maybe they just read a couple of Osprey books that were probably already a decade+ old before they made 1st edition back in 2008 and called it good then 😛

    #170025
    Avatar photoGuy Farrish
    Participant

    Well, I’m glad you got a copy eventually.

    Are you?

    Seems like a fair bit of tweaking needed.

    What do you reckon Ashigaru were typically armed with in this period?  Bows?

    Naginata had pretty much disappeared  by then hadn’t they? Disappearing more or less as Ashigaru came in?

    And as you say, having units of bow armed Samurai at this period seems just wrong

    I suspect you’re going to have to spend a lot of time persuading people the lists ain’t right.

    Or play solo. :^)

     

     

     

    #170026
    Avatar photoSpurious
    Participant

    What do you reckon Ashigaru were typically armed with in this period? Bows? Naginata had pretty much disappeared by then hadn’t they? Disappearing more or less as Ashigaru came in? And as you say, having units of bow armed Samurai at this period seems just wrong I suspect you’re going to have to spend a lot of time persuading people the lists ain’t right. Or play solo. :^)

    Ashigaru throughout this period are largely using the yari and then the nagae-yari which is basically the same but longer. Naginata were more in the domain of Samurai at this point but even there the yari held more favour. There are a whole bunch of ashigaru still working as archers and they’re gradually but not fully replaced by guns up to a ratio of about 4 guns to 1 archer by the end of the timeframe (more or less, depends on the usual array of qualifiers). Though that really only gets going from about the 1560s on, really more like the 1580s and the invasion of Korea is where they went big on them, even though there’s records of firearms even back to 1467. Took a while to get a type that worked good and get around that whole how to make use of them without the user just getting shot/stabbed whilst they’re reloading thing. They keep the bows though to help solve that by providing covering fire for the guns whilst they reload, as well as some measure against the curse of damp powder.

    Samurai, well, technically they can use whatever they want, and might well change armament during the course of a battle since they’re invariably accompanied by various retainers. But the use of the bow by them was becoming increasingly out of fashion, at least in field use despite it still being very much considered part of the skill set. Whole units is definitely out. Same with samurai with guns, they’re definitely in there with some notable figures using them, but not really in any amount worth dedicating entire units to outside of a small skirmish game.

    #170049
    Avatar photoGuy Farrish
    Participant

    I wasn’t suggesting Ashigaru were widely using naginata, I was wondering what NCS was suggesting they used if not long yari. I think I missed the differentiation between long yari and yari.

    Is Impetus’ long spear supposed to represent the yari or the nagae yari? I presume the former – pike would better represent the nagae yari wouldn’t it?

    Which was why I was asking because the Impetus list seems to suggest long spear (=yari) as the majority weapon type vice long yari/nagae yari. Which would be reasonable wouldn’t it?

    Or am I missing something?

     

     

     

    #170054
    Avatar photoNot Connard Sage
    Participant

    I wasn’t suggesting Ashigaru were widely using naginata, I was wondering what NCS was suggesting they used if not long yari. I think I missed the differentiation between long yari and yari. Is Impetus’ long spear supposed to represent the yari or the nagae yari? I presume the former – pike would better represent the nagae yari wouldn’t it? Which was why I was asking because the Impetus list seems to suggest long spear (=yari) as the majority weapon type vice long yari/nagae yari. Which would be reasonable wouldn’t it? Or am I missing something?

    I don’t think you’re missing anything. The authors seem a bit confused, yari would be better classed as a polearm, and nagae-yari as long spear. They both had long, bladed heads, and while it’s possible to fence with a yari, a long bladed pointy thing on a droopy 6m stick is only going to be used to poke things with. When you consider that the leverage the blade is applying at the ashigaru end, and the flex in the shaft it’s a wonder they could get the thing off the ground.

    There’s a tree native to japan called isunoki, Its wood is hard and heavy, and traditionally used to make bokken*. I suppose that it could be used for the shaft, but…it’s heavy.

    *Practice sword used in kendo kata and aikido. And they’re bloody expensive! The last one I bought was about 75 quid, and that was a long time ago.

     

    Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

    #170072
    Avatar photoSpurious
    Participant

    They do have hardwood hafts with a bamboo laminate over the top. I suspect that might help in the case that it’s difficult to get hold of suitable single lengths of hardwood (since growing straight and tall Ash was a huge industry over in Europe for the few places that could reliably do it), or to simply lighten the overall construction. There’s also short bladed heads, down to about 16cm. IIRC those are the ones mostly going to the ashigaru at least in the mid-1500s onward, cheaper to make, less fuss to train to use.

    Re-checking more into Impetus 2’s way of doing it, the main difference between pike and longspear mechanically in it is that pike gets more bonus from large units, and does worse on Broken Ground. Otherwise they both do basically the same thing. And since they didn’t go forming massive, deep blocks of pike infantry over in Japan…
    After all that I think in this case it may well be fair to call basically any ashigaru with yari of any length as longspear units entirely due to their battlefield role of being up front with the big pokey sticks. And then samurai on foot with them can be polearms still, suiting their breaking into a disrupted formation and taking heads role.

    #170108
    Avatar photoNot Connard Sage
    Participant

    . Re-checking more into Impetus 2’s way of doing it, the main difference between pike and longspear mechanically in it is that pike gets more bonus from large units, and does worse on Broken Ground. Otherwise they both do basically the same thing. And since they didn’t go forming massive, deep blocks of pike infantry over in Japan… After all that I think in this case it may well be fair to call basically any ashigaru with yari of any length as longspear units entirely due to their battlefield role of being up front with the big pokey sticks. And then samurai on foot with them can be polearms still, suiting their breaking into a disrupted formation and taking heads role.

     

    We’re broadly in agreement then? 🙂

    Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

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