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  • #49583
    Deleted User
    Member

    I’m considering “inventing” an army for the FoG Bronze Age (Chariot Wars) period. Specifically, a 600 point “Starter” army.

    Why? Because I have the figures (see below). I’d like some variety to the established lists. Because I’d like to see if I can create a workable & fairly valid historical force.

    It will be a “Desert” or “Nomad” force (historically, the Shasu or, perhaps, the Apiru that appear regularly in NKE accounts of campaigns in Palestine).
    The core figures will from these sets:

    <!– m –>http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Review.aspx?id=1096<!– m –>
    <!– m –>http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Review.aspx?id=1046<!– m –>

    A general will be shown in some sort of (scratch-built?) two wheeled cart. There will be units of bow-armed medium infantry & light infantry. Javelin-armed skirmishers will get a BG too. Also a spear unit (I’ll have to add spears & some sort of shields) & units of “Close Fighters” ( FoG-talk for mixed weapons). Possibly a Mob of poorly armed men & women.

    A BG of camel-riding archers is tempting…….but probably inaccurate as they seem to have arrived in the 10th BC: a bit late. I’ll have to think about it.

    <!– m –>http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news … y-science/<!– m –>

    Stats will come from similar troop types in the lists. When finished, they can slug it out with the NKE or against my pals’ Assyrians (when completed), perhaps in some sort of campaign involving invading Egypt?

    Please feel free to comment on any & all of my assumptions. Even my temerity in creating such a force.

    donald

    #49598
    Mike Headden
    Participant

    An interesting period and one seen on wargaming tables far too infrequently IMHO.

    One of the nice things about gaming in the Middle Eastern Bronze Age is we know comparatively little for sure about the armies of the time! Far harder for opponents and/ or “rivet counters” to tell you you’re wrong 🙂

    I’ve become fascinated with the period since retiring – to the point that people seeing the things I’m reading for relaxation assume I’m doing a university course in my retirement – but these are the views of an educated amateur so please take them as such.

    Assuming we’re talking about an army for around 1500Bc – 1000BC you’re right that there would probably be no camels. Also, the two man camel thing is almost certainly Assyrian propaganda to show how well they were doing in suppressing these “bandits” and would not be the norm.

    Probably no chariot for the general either but I could certainly argue for it as a possibility so I’d say go for it. The great powers harried, bullied and bribed the tribes in about equal measure. His chariot is the equivalent of the CIA handler giving a local warlord a Humvee to keep him on message!

    The general would have a bodyguard of “warband” types. Good fighters but more effective when winning than when losing! If anyone in the army, other than the general, has armour or a shield it will be these guys.

    Around half of the army would be armed with javelin/short spear and one of dagger, axe, more javelins. Unarmoured and unshielded and in a fairly loose formation – warband or auxilia in DBA speak.

    Around a quarter to a third of the army would be formed archers – again unarmoured but possibly closer formed than the javelin/spear men.

    The rest would be skirmishers armed with bows or slings or, less likely, javelins.

    I’ll get back to my 6mm Amurru now 🙂

    Growing old is mandatory, growing up is entirely optional!

    #49608
    Deleted User
    Member

    Another aficionado: thanks for your informed opinion, Mike.

    One of the more amazing facts I’ve gleaned is the size of the armies. One modern author gives Thuthmosis III a force of only 5000 men at Meggido!

    Not quite an “Armageddon” of a battle!

    The challenge of the task I’ve outlined is creating a force that can hold its own against a chariot force like the NKE. The FoG rules on terrain are quite interesting & lots of skirmisher-friendly terrain will be necessary for survival. Probably the desert army will need allies such as Mitanni or the Hittites to be viable.

    Here’s some photos from our first foray into the period:

    http://bennosfiguresforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14421&p=164621&hilit=invasion%21+ochoin#p164621

     

    donald

     

    #49610
    Mike Headden
    Participant

    I’m doing Sumerian armies and enemies in 6mm.

    One of the draws of the period and scale was from reading that an army from Shuruppak (a mid-sized Sumerian city) comprised just over 700 troops and 60 chariots and realising I could do that at 1:1 in 6mm.

    However, the 5,400 men (presumably the standing army) who ate in the presence of Sargon the Great of Akkad may beyond even my levels of lunacy, let alone the rest of his army!

    As to dealing with the armies of the more settled areas, historically the nomad faced much the same problem. If you fail to do it take heart from the fact that the originals pretty much did too. 🙂

    Growing old is mandatory, growing up is entirely optional!

    #49630
    Deleted User
    Member

    As to dealing with the armies of the more settled areas, historically the nomad faced much the same problem. If you fail to do it take heart from the fact that the originals pretty much did too. 🙂

     

    Like most people, I claim winning or losing a game doesn’t matter. But to be strictly honest, there has to be the possibility of winning or why bother?

    In other words a beautifully painted Desert army, invariably smashed, will not be used much. Sad….but true.

     

     

    donald

    #49633
    kyoteblue
    Participant

    Cool idea.

    #49643
    Mike Headden
    Participant

    Can’t work out how to include a quote (neither Reply nor Quote seem to add the text to my post) so I’ve just cut and pasted. I love the content here but the software used to deliver it seems hideously clunky to me.

    “Like most people, I claim winning or losing a game doesn’t matter. But to be strictly honest, there has to be the possibility of winning or why bother?

    In other words a beautifully painted Desert army, invariably smashed, will not be used much. Sad….but true.

    donald”

    I think it depends very much on the rules and the types of games they’ll be used in. If the rules have sensible rules for terrain – not every battle was fought on an empty billiard table – then you should be able to use terrain to your advantage. If they are points based then if your troops are individually inferior to the enemy they will outnumber them. If you play scenario games rather than competition style “line ’em up, knock ’em down” games the nomads may either have victory conditions other than defeating the enemy (for example, 90% of your army attempts to slow up the enemy while the remaining 10% hustle the booty off the far end of the table) or even just winning a game by losing less badly than your historical counterpart!!

    Growing old is mandatory, growing up is entirely optional!

    #49647
    Deleted User
    Member

    Mike, I agree with all you write & the FoG rules (mostly) support this. But even so, a force designed to harass won’t win much unless you make “survival” a victory condition. Indeed, as you say, history is against me.

    AFAIK despite the regular forays into Palestine by NKE pharaohs, they never seem to have lost against the Shasu.

    I still think I’ll create the “army”, but probably only as a limited allied force, working either for the Egyptians or their enemies.

     

    donald

    #49718
    zippyfusenet
    Participant

    Way cool idea. I’ve lusted after those 1/72 plastic figures, but I’ll never convert from metal 15s.

    Best nomad tactic vs. civilized troops: Persuade them to hire you as scouts.

    Next best tactic: Run away and hide.

    The somewhat later Judges-era Israelites could only run so far, because they had farms, but were at much the same tactical disadvantage as their nomad ancestors. Their tactic was to get up on top of a steep hill and taunt the charioteers like a bunch of Daleks at the foot of a staircase. “Ha, those bronze-bound wheels aren’t so good for hills, are they? Come up here and see what you get!”

    For the nomads to win, you really need a Divine Intervention rule. It’s what they counted on.

    You'll shoot your eye out, kid!

    #49721
    Rod Robertson
    Participant

    Ochoin:

    It sounds like you’re building an army of “retjenu” as the Egyptians called them. These are warriors from Asia and more particularly from what we would call the Levant. Depending on how much non-infantry you want, you could use one Asiatic/Syrian style chariot for your general or have a substantial number supporting your many foot. You might also consider a Hyksos option as records show that the Egyptians were still fighting peoples from Asia/the Levant which they called Hyksos until the 11th Century BCE. If you want to keep them completely foot, then Aripu/Haribu Semetic style hill tribes would do. The camels could be used as scouts but not as massed camelry which only enters the historical record in the 9th Century BCE. The Battle of Qar-qar I think is the first mention of massed camelry. Well I hope you enjoy yourself and enjoy these forces whatever you choose to build.

    I look forward to following your progress on this thread.

    Cheers and good gaming.

    Rod Robertson.

    #49746
    Mike Headden
    Participant

    Retjenu is roughly modern day Israel, Lebanon together with parts of Turkey and Syria. In the Late Bronze Age, contemporary with New Kingdom Egypt, it would be largely controlled by the Hurrian state of Mitanni until they were conquered by and absorbed into the Assyrian Empire.

    The Mitanni are city dwellers with a strong chariot force supported by a mix of spearmen and archers (somewhere around half of each) and the inevitable light infantry pretty much every ancient army has rather than nomads.

    The Hyksos are precursors of the Mitanni who conquered the north of Egypt. They would have had a lesser proportion of chariots to infantry than the Mitanni, especially early on. Their infantry would have been more loosely formed than the Mitanni equivalent with a higher proportion of light infantry and with the option of adding rather reluctant Egyptian levies to their forces.

    The Bronze Age is full of fascinating armies, it’s a shame they reach the wargames table so infrequently.

    Growing old is mandatory, growing up is entirely optional!

    #49754
    Adam Hayes
    Participant

    As has been mentioned, once you stray away from the Egyptians there is not a lot of hard evidence for the makeup of armies of the Bronze Age. Certainly not enough to make judgements about the proportion of troop types in any given force. Many armies were of the Hurrian or Hittite model where a war leader called upon his vassals and allies to provide soldiers for a campaign or defence of an area. This allows you to rationalise quite a variety amongst a gathered host.

    #49805
    Rod Robertson
    Participant

    I like this thread! I hope it progresses rather than retiring to the limbo of the old threads.

    Ochoin:

    Have you considered Sea Peoples allies to beef up your army? That might be a spectacular force hiding in the rough!

    Mike Headden:
    Is your ancients gaming exclusively in 6mm? Your Sumerians looked great! I, like Zippy and Kyoteblue above, game in 15mm although I’m not sure if Kyoteblue does ancients. I have armies from c. 1300 BCE, c. 700 BCE, and ones from 350 BCE to about 150 CE.

    Zippy:
    Do you have Arks and trumpets in your armies?

    Adam Hayes:

    Hi! You’re quite right, but that never stopped any Copper and Bronze Age rivet counters of our time whom I have met!
    Cheers and good gaming.
    Rod Robertson.

    #49806
    zippyfusenet
    Participant

    Hi Rod. I have the Falcon 15mm Ark of the Covenant set, mounted as a war wagon. No trumpets on that piece, though, just a few Levite warrior-priests, looking burly and surly. I’d like to have some ram’s horn trumpets if you know where I could get ’em. T’keeyah! Shevarim t’ruah! T’keeyah! Tis the season, you know. Git yontif un a git yor.

    You'll shoot your eye out, kid!

    #49807
    Rod Robertson
    Participant

    Zippy:

    Sorry but I can’t help you with ram’s horn trumpets. If I find anything I’ll pass it along. I’ve got nothing shofar! In the mean time, Hag Same’ah!

    Cheers and good gaming.

    Rod Robertson.

    #49855
    Mike Headden
    Participant

    Rod, yes all 6mm.

    As Adam points out, hard evidence for many of the armies in terms of organisation, arms and even clothing is sparse, though there have been some good books giving pointers published recently, if you don’t mind ploughing through stuff more appropriate for the university library than the morning commute!

    The joy of 6mm for me is that I can produce a reasonable facsimile of the troops I’m trying represent with little more than a “paint job conversion.” Differences between Old and New kingdom troops are probably greater than painting the headdress to represent hair but it’s good enough for me 🙂

    Growing old is mandatory, growing up is entirely optional!

    #49869
    Deleted User
    Member

    Speaking of books….Bronze Age warfare isn’t exactly a “hot” topic. I’ve finished Spalinger’s book on “War in Ancient Egypt” & the equally excellentCline one on the key year (1177BC). The Dawes book on the same subject is in transit. So apart from the Ospreys (I have several & they are what they are) what else is worth reading?

    donald

     

    Sea Peoples? Yes, I have several BGs of them. They are useful as they can fight with the NKE, against them by themselves or as allies of the Hittites.

    #49877
    Mike Headden
    Participant

    Stuff I’ve read recently includes “Bronze Age Military Equipment” by Dan Howard, W J Hamblin’s “Warfare In The Ancient Near East to 1600BC”, the Vanguard “Bronze Age War Chariots by Dr Nic Fields, the Charles Rivers Editors book on Mohenjo-Daro. Currently reading “Sumer to Rome” by Gabriel and Metz which looks at military history of the period from the point of view of weapon lethality, injury & death and medical services. Apart from the Vanguard book these are not light reading!

    If you want an easier-to-read look at New Kingdom Egypt Christian Jacq’s “Ramses” series is worth a read. There is a volume on The Battle of Kadesh specifically.

    I did archaeology at university many moons ago and I’m amazed how much more we’ve discovered about the period than we did when I studied it.

    Growing old is mandatory, growing up is entirely optional!

    #49880
    Rod Robertson
    Participant

    Ochoin:

    Given the army you are intending to build, look for Chaim Herzog and Mordechai Gichon’s book, “Battles of the Bible”. It’s a good read and has some useful detail.

    Cheers and good gaming.

    Rod Robertson.

    #49886
    Deleted User
    Member

    Thanks, gents: several additions to my future library.

     

    Now, I’d like to talk about mercenaries. It’s a term bandied about in the period. Given no cash economy, I suppose it means groups of free-booters willing to fight for the major powers in exchange for provisions & land. I believe many Sherdan were settled on the Libyan border side of the Delta.

    Now I bring this up not for a geeky-history discussion (nothing wrong with that of course) but to give credence to the concept of many minor powers lining up with one side or the other. In other words, the forces I use in my wargames can be quite fluid. The Field of Glory rules endorses this idea & it suits me to have a least some sense of authenticity when I’m pushing my little plastic men around the table. Am I kidding myself?

     

     

    donald

    #49946
    Mike Headden
    Participant

    Mercenaries were a common thing in this period. Especially peoples on the fringes of the civilized world. The desert dwelling Amorites, the Zagros mountaineers, Nubian archers and the like.

    We have records in the clay tablet libraries rescued from the ruins of ancient cities that detail payments of silver, grain and other foodstuffs, animals, clothes and other valuable items to leaders of mercenary bands.

    Some like the Sherden or the Libyan archers seem to have become part of the regular army.

    Growing old is mandatory, growing up is entirely optional!

    #49951
    Rod Robertson
    Participant

    To All:

    Mercenaries and their extended families/clans/tribes were often allowed to settle in territories controlled by the hiring power. Grants of land or income (from trade for example) were used to compensate the hired. Also, with their close relatives in a place controlled by the hiring power, the temptation to defect in order to serve competing interests was lessened somewhat. Thus the Aripu/Haribu and the Danaan were useful adjuncts to the Middle Egyptian armies/navies until the wheels fell off in the Second Intermediate Period and they left Egypt c. 1470 BCE. Remember that there is some compelling evidence for two parallel Exoduses from Egypt. One was by land and led by Moses but the other was a marine one of the Danaan /Danu to parts unknown (Greece?). The Hyksos may have been a similar force of Asiatic mercenaries who settled the Egyptian northeastern frontier and then rose to power, overthrowing the Egyptians in Lower Egypt and setting up a parallel dynastic line to the Upper Egyptian dynasties of the time.

    The Sea Peoples were also good examples of this. In the first wave c. 1208 BCE the Lukka, Sheklesh, Teresh, Ekwesh and the Akwasha came and were defeated by the Egyptian at Perire. Thousands were killed but about 10,000 were captured and used as slaves and as mercenaries. In the second wave c. 1186 BCE, the Pelset settled the coast northeast of Egypt and served as mercenaries for Egypt until trade and agriculture allowed them to consider a more independent national policy. The Sherden pirates were different as their appearance predates the invasions. They are first mentioned in the 14th C BCE and were recruited to become a sort of elite foreign legion of Shardana in the NKE armed forces as bodyguards and shock troops as early as 1279 BCE. I have found little compelling evidence of Sherden communities settling in or around Egypt. The cases for the Tjecker of Crete and the Ekwesh of Italy are less clear. Libyan tribes were likewise used and settled along the northwestern frontiers of Egypt as were Numbians and Malakans in the south and southeast coast respectively. This process endured and was repeated numerous times in later Egyptian history with Kushites, Greeks and even a short flirtation with Romans.

    Cheers and good gaming.

    Rod Robertson.

    #49953
    Rod Robertson
    Participant

    Read this:

    Humm?!? Not sure why it copied like this. Just click on the title – “The People of the Boat”.

    The Peoples of the Boats

    You might also want to check out a book called, “1177  BC – The Year Civilisation Collapsed” which came out last year I think.

    http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10185.html

    Cheers and good gaming.

    Rod Robertson.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 5 months ago by Rod Robertson.
    #49958
    Rod Robertson
    Participant

    Another interesting page:

    10 Fascinating Theories Regarding The Ancient Sea Peoples

    Cheers and good gaming.

    Rod Robertson.

    #50017
    zippyfusenet
    Participant

    Ochoin, Genesis Chapter 14, Abraham’s part in The War of the Four Kings Against Five, bears directly on the question of how a Bronze Age beduin host might have defeated a civilized army:

    And it came to pass in the days of Amraphel king of Shinar, Arioch king of Ellasar, Chedorlaomer king of Elam and Tidal king of nations;

    That these made war with Bera king of Sodom, and with Birsha king of Gomorrah, Shinab king of Admah, and Shemeber king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela, which is Zoar.

    Amraphel of Shinar is thought by some to be Hammurabi of Babylon, 1810 BC-1750 BC. Chedorlaomer is a proper Elamite name, and a king of that name ruled in Larsa 1770 BC-1754 BC. This is about the traditional era of the Hebrew Patriarchs. The text of Genesis is thought to have been written down only about 600 BC; it’s almost incredible that an accurate account of this war could have passed down orally for over 1100 years…but here it is, take it or leave it. Perhaps it was written down in a much earlier text, or made the subject of an epic poem, or carved into a monumental inscription. Perhaps.

    Genesis 14 relates that Chedorlaomer’s army defeated all enemies and sacked their cities, and was on the march home with captives and booty when Abraham the Hebrew made a surprise night attack on their camp and routed them. Abraham led into battle that night 318 of his own fighting men, “his trained servants, born in his own house”, and three allied Amorite tribes: Aner, Eshkol and Mamre. If those tribes were about the same size as Abraham’s Hebrew tribe, then about 1200 or 1300 fighting men made the night attack, organized into tribal hosts of about 300 men each, possibly making a coordinated attack from different directions on the sleeping camp, “And he (Abraham) divided himself against them, he and his servants, by night, and smote them”.

    And now you know more than you are likely to learn from any other source about beduin modes of warfare in the Bronze Age.

    You'll shoot your eye out, kid!

    #50018
    zippyfusenet
    Participant

    Some wargamy sources:

    Nigel Stillman and Nigel Tallis Armies of the Ancient Near East 3,000 BC to 539 BC, the WRG book, formerly The Bible for ANE wargamers. S&T canvassed a lot of academic sources and boiled it down to one convenient compendium for your modeling and gaming pleasure. Copyright 1984, so it doesn’t include the latest findings, but the main problem with this volume is that it’s been out of print for so long that copies are scarce and over-priced. Still, if you can find one, snap it up.

    Nigel Stillman Warhammer Chariot Wars. A 1999 revisit to the same territory as a sourcebook for Warhammer Historical Battles rules. More recent but not as comprehensive as the WRG book, should be easier to find a copy for a fair price. Stillman here professes adherence to the ‘new chronology’, which revises the understanding of the Egyptian king lists to make Pharaoh Ramesses contemporary with King David. Stillman’s more of an expert than I am, but I’m not convinced, so I mentally revise the dates he gives to something more conventional.

    Peter Connally The Ancient Greece of Odysseus. A romp through a Mycenaean-themed version of the Odyssey, with copious colored drawings of subjects military, architectural and other. Lots more color than two or three Ospreys. Pretty. Inspiring. Helps you get those Greeks and Trojans painted.

     

    You'll shoot your eye out, kid!

    #50019
    zippyfusenet
    Participant

    Some other titles:

    Robert Drews The End of the Bronze Age: Changes in Warfare and the Catastrophe ca. 1200 BC. Examines the Sea People migrations and the fall of the palaces, and concludes that the Sea People fielded a new style of infantry warrior, an Ax(S) lightly armored and armed with javelins, a long bronze slashing sword and a big buckler shield, who was able to defeat the chariot armies of the palace empires. I find Drews’ analysis interesting, with reservations – it seems to me that the chariot continued to be the queen of battle and the decisive arm, at least on open plains, for hundreds of years into the Iron Age, until a horse was bred that was big and strong enough to carry an armed man, and cavalry replaced chariotry. Still, it may be that the swarming infantry of the Sea People defeated the armies of the palaces, until they met the solid shield wall of the Egyptian peasantry, in their overwhelming numbers.

    Michael Wood In Search of the Trojan War. Of course you want to read up on the biggest, most famous war of the Bronze Age. Excellent pop-history, copiously illustrated, with many of the same photos you’ve seen in books on the Sea People and the Mycenaeans…but this book is specifically about the Trojan War.

    I love primary sources, see my gambol through Genesis, above. A couple more:

    John Chadwick The Mycenaean World. Copyright 1976, so forty years behinf the times, what I like about this book  is that Chadwick includes reproductions, transliterations and translations of a number of Linear B tablets on military subjects, and analyzes in detail parts  of the likely military organization of several of the palace cities whose archives have been found and translated. Very flavorful.

    William L. Moran The Amarna Letters. Often cited, here they are in full: Abdi-Astarti abasing himself, Rib-Hadda begging Pharaoh to send troops to save him. Very, very flavorful.

    You'll shoot your eye out, kid!

    #50022
    Rod Robertson
    Participant

    To add to Zippy’s reading list is:

    https://www.amazon.com/Bronze-Age-Military-Equipment-Howard/dp/1848842937

    It predates Ochoin’s period but does go up to the NKE c. 1300 BCE.

    Cheers and good gaming.

    Rod Robertson.

     

    #50026
    Deleted User
    Member

     

    Some other titles: Robert Drews The End of the Bronze Age: Changes in Warfare and the Catastrophe ca. 1200 BC.

     

    Michael Wood In Search of the Trojan War.

     

    : John Chadwick The Mycenaean World. .

     

    I’m actually reading Drew right now (arrived in the post yesterday). The Wood & Chadwick books reside in my library. Thanks for the other recommendations.

     

     

    donald

    #50224
    Rod Robertson
    Participant

    Has anyone read Richard Osgood’s and Sarah Monk’s, “Bronze Age Warfare”? Does it deal with the Middle East or just Asian and European Bronze Age cultures?

    Cheers and good gaming.

    Rod Robertson.

    #50225
    Mike Headden
    Participant

    Osgood and Monk only cover Europe. I read the Kindle version, I’m assuming the printed version is identical.

    Not as much hard evidence as I’d like and a tendency to treat weapons and armour as “ritual” rather than as evidence of violence, which seems weird to me.

    Growing old is mandatory, growing up is entirely optional!

    #50230
    Rod Robertson
    Participant

    Mike Headden:

    Thanks for the information. I’ll give it a pass for now, then.

    Cheers and good gaming.

    Rod Robertson.

    #57752
    Deleted User
    Member

    I’ve hit a purple patch & all but finished my Shasu force.

     

    It comprises 4  bases of camelry, 4 bases of skirmishing archers & 8 bases of javelinmen. They’re led by a chieftain in a chariot.

    I’ve got a Bronze Age game booked for March & they’ll be an outflanking force for the NKE (obviously bribed. The chariot?) against a Mycenaean-Sea Peoples’ army.

     

    Thanks for all the help/advice (above).

     

    donald

    #57755
    zippyfusenet
    Participant

    I’m hoping for pictures.

    You'll shoot your eye out, kid!

    #57767
    Thaddeus Blanchette
    Participant

    The “Masculine Epic?” A site that equates the Sea People’s armed invasions with today’s mass migrations and claims might is right? The strong take what they want and the weak are slaves?

    Not very political at all that site, is it, Rod?

    What with all the good archeology sites out there, do we really have to be linking to amateur websites with a fascist political axe to grind?

    Here are some better links:

    10 Fascinating Theories Regarding The Ancient Sea Peoples

    http://www.ancient.eu/Sea_Peoples/

    Also, I found Cline’s book 1177 to be a dry, but good introduction to the period.
    But here’s something really fascinating that’s only come to light recently and which might eventually cast light on the Sea People’s phenomenon. Well worth a read:

    http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/03/slaughter-bridge-uncovering-colossal-bronze-age-battle

    This shows that there were Bronze Age chiefdoms able to mobilize large, transeuropean armies in Northern Europe and that they were at war just before the Bronze Age Dark Age. Note the probable date of this immense battle: less than a hundred years before 1177, give or take fifty. Plus, one of the sides seems to have come up from Soithern Europe.

    So what we are looking at here may be a northwards push by the so-called Sea Peoples, or a push by other peoples who had been pushed out by the Sea Peoples.

    One could hypothesize an invasion of the Danube Valley by a technologically and socially sophisticated group of peoples around about 1200, pushing other groups north and east. Then, 100 years later, the descendants of the Danube invaders head south into the Mediterranean.

    Whoever they were, they weren’t ignorant barbarians. They mastered sailing and watercraft in a relatively short period of time. And, IIRC, they were also the — or one of the — founders of mass iron working.

    We get slapped around, but we have a good time!

    #57770
    Angel Barracks
    Moderator

    One of the draws of the period and scale was from reading that an army from Shuruppak (a mid-sized Sumerian city) comprised just over 700 troops and 60 chariots and realising I could do that at 1:1 in 6mm.

    see this is pleasing and exciting to me..  🙂

    #57798
    Deleted User
    Member

    Thaddeus: your links about the Sea Peoples have nothing new (I hope that doesn’t sound snarky: it’s not meant that way). I’d oppose the claim that the Egyptians knew who the SPs were, hence their failure to go into any detail about them. I don’t think the Egyptians really cared too much about anything happening outside Egypt & often relied on formulas & vague pronouncements about foreigners. Their earlier account of a voyage to the land of Punt is typical. It’s all about what “tribute” they could send Egypt; nothing on where the place was. Or their relative silence on the Hebrews (much to the annoyance of Biblical scholars).

    Indeed, I’d have said that little new has been written about the SPs for many years….until I read your link that extrapolates a connection between the Baltic “massacre” & the Sea Peoples. Now that’s suggestive. I would really like to read an analysis of global weather conditions of the time in order to assess the motives for escalating aggression & possible Folk Movement.

     

     

    donald

     

    #57808
    Thaddeus Blanchette
    Participant

    I didn’t say “new”, just “better”. Although I do see that Rod has already posted that ten interesting facts about the Sea Peoples link. That’s certainly better than nativist politics disguised as historical analysis!

    But yeah, the only thing new I’ve seen in the last couple of years is this battle site they’ve dug up in Germany. It was a huge battle by the standards of the time — potentially Kadesh-sized. And yet we know of no cities that were nearby. So what the hell was going on? And the tine is too close to the Sea Peoples invasions for it likely to be a coincidence.

    Some theories think a big migrations was coming out of the Danube Valley. That would account for both the Sea Peoples and the Baltic battle. And you’re right: the thing to be looking for is weather patterns. Or perhaps evidence of thousand year floods in the Danube Valley around this time.

     

     

    We get slapped around, but we have a good time!

    #57810
    Thaddeus Blanchette
    Participant

    Check it out: Northern Italy, Terramare Culture.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terramare_culture

    “Around 1200 B.C. a serious crisis began for the terramare culture that within a few years led to the abandonment of all the settlements; the reasons for this crisis are still not entirely clear, it seems possible that in the face of an incipient overpopulation (between 150,000 and 200,000 individuals were calculated) and depletion of natural resources, a series of drought periods led to a deep economic crisis, famine, and consequently the disruption of the political order, which caused the collapse of society. Around 1150 B.C. the terramare were completely abandoned, with no settlements replacing them. The plains, especially in the area of Emilia, were abandoned for several centuries, and only in the Roman era they regain the density of population reached during the terramare period.”

     

    We get slapped around, but we have a good time!

    #57812
    Deleted User
    Member

    Great article. I also clicked on ‘Pelasgian’ (that catch-all phrase for the evidently darker-skinned pre-Greeks who the Hellenes mingled with) which indicated a possible link with the Sea Peoples. One of my favourite early Greek poets, Simonides, was shunned because he was “dark & ugly” compared to his other blondely beautiful family members. Wonderful to speculate that the Sea Peoples were pre-Indo-Europeans, cast into turmoil by climate change & spreading havoc both north & south.

    There are so many tantalising little hints & references in Greek history that we will never fully understand.

    Minor point: why are houses built on piles only to protect against inundation? Such a building technique both helps with cooling (& that part of Italy can bake in summer) & with minimising vermin in the dwelling. I feel so smart…..

     

    donald

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