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  • #125052
    Mike
    Keymaster

    Underrepresented on the internet?
    (Assuming you have one and so on)

    Looking around on numerous sites, 28mm is by far the most talked about scale* and I am kind of feeling like starting some 28mm just to fit in!
    What are your perceptions around this?

     

    *yes I know.

    #125053
    willz
    Participant

    When we talk about 28mm Mike do we assume its between 25mm and 36mm, as that it what comes across on the inter web thingy.

    I think 28mm is most talked about is probably due to the Games Workshop effect (ie high street shops more general public interface).  For lots of gamers / collectors / modellers it is the scale of choice for detail versus space and cost. (same argument for smaller scales).  Though I wonder if we looked at the military modelling or flat figure collectors what would their scale of choice be?

     

    Willz.

    #125054
    Mike Headden
    Participant

    My preferred scale is dependent on period and rules.

    I do Ancients (Home Brew Rules) and Napoleonics (SESWC DBA variant) in 6mm

    Samurai big battle in 3mm (Home Brew) and Ninja skirmish with 28mm chibi

    WW2 in 3mm (BKC), 6mm (Home Brew Rules), 10mm (BKC) and 15mm (Chain of Command)

    Sci-fi RPG in 20mm

    For me, 28mm are too ludicrously expensive, take up too much space (both on the table and in storage) and have too big a discrepancy between figure scale and ground scale for anything other than small skirmish games

    3mm and 6mm allow for large numbers of figures per base to give a good “massed battle” feel.

    10mm and 15mm give a decent balance between size, cost and detail.

    20mm are big enough for players to identify with their figure.

    My two ha’porth!

    Growing old is mandatory, growing up is entirely optional!

    #125058
    Mike
    Keymaster

    do Ancients (Home Brew Rules) and Napoleonics (SESWC DBA variant) in 6mm

    Do you find this represented well online?

    Samurai big battle in 3mm (Home Brew) and Ninja skirmish with 28mm chibi

    Do you find this represented well online?

    etc…

    #125063
    Mike Headden
    Participant

    Can I find enough sites online that cover them, yes. Though more coverage would always be welcome.

    I spend far more time on history sites than wargames ones.

    To be honest, what I’m looking for from the wargames sites is mainly paint schemes and the size of figure doesn’t affect that much. I look at overall impressions then replicate that in my preferred scale. The smaller my figure the less and less interested I am in the fine detail of what they’ve painted.

    Other than that, a regular trawl of my extensive list of wargame-related commercial site bookmarks keeps me up to date with new releases.

    Regular visits to TWW and the Pendraken Forum give me more bookmarks to add to the list and inspire me to go to them to buy things I don’t need with money I don’t have for projects I will probably never start, let alone complete 🙂

    In print – not remotely. So I no longer buy the print magazines.

     

    Growing old is mandatory, growing up is entirely optional!

    #125068
    Darkest Star Games
    Participant

    I’m in the same boat as Mike H.

    Are the scales I prefer as well represented as 28mm?  no.

    Are they represented enough that I can find reference and pictures of other people’s games?  Yes.

    Do I wish there was more representation of said scales?  Always!

    There are some great figures and stuff in 28mm, and I am sure some of the games they go with are entertaining, but between the cost as the aforementioned space they take up/ground scale issue I am not all that interested.  Most 28mm games are aimed at tournament play, and as that is not my bag I have even less interest.

     

    "I saw this in a cartoon once, but I'm pretty sure I can do it..."

    #125070
    Russell Phillips
    Participant

    I’ve used 20mm since I first started with Airfix plastics back in the 1970s 🙂 It’s still my preferred “larger” scale, although I’ve picked up a few 28mm sci-fi and fantasy figures.

    20mm seems to be reasonably well represented, although it does feel like 28mm gets the most online love.

    I used to have some 6mm, and still have a bit, but for smaller figures, I prefer 3mm nowadays. 3mm seems to be a very niche scale, and as such there doesn’t seem to be a lot of online coverage. That doesn’t really bother me, though, to be honest.

    Military history author
    Website : Twitter : Facebook

    #125072
    Steve Johnson
    Participant

    10mm is my preferred ‘scale’ these days and fortunately the Pendraken forum caters for most of my needs. Facebook which I’ve recently joined has several groups that cover 10mm and 6mm. However from my admittedly limited perspective, 28mm is so dominant, whether on the internet or at shows etc. I’m still amazed that many gamers are surprised at how good 6mm and 10mm games can be from a visual point of view, alongside the relatively small space they take up.  Sometimes I get the feeling that it is not ‘real wargaming’ unless it is 28mm. Shame really.

    #125073
    OldBen1
    Participant

    I really liked 28mm scale.  It looks good and highlights some of the amazing painting detail you can get out of a tiny lump of metal.

    It’s too big for storage though.  If you have a lot of models they will quickly take over your storage area.  My 28mm Innsmouth took up three large copy boxes alone.

    I wish I was a better painter because I’ve seen some awesome work in 15mm.  Some of the best painters out there convinced me that 15mm was viable for main characters and villains.

    I have a lot of 10mm models.  I like them but they are really small.  Most of them have been painted by talented artists so I can live with them!

    I can’t really paint miniatures smaller than 10mm.  My hands and eyes are not steady enough.

    #125076
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    Ain’t got one. 🙂

    I’ve got all sorts of stuff from 2mm to 28mm.

     

     

     

    "I go online sometimes, but everyone's spelling is really bad. It's... depressing."

    #125083
    kyoteblue
    Participant

    I see all the cool 28/32 mm all the time and then wish they were also made in 15/18 mm. Shrug.

    #125084
    Mr. Average
    Participant

    My preferred scales are 3mm and 6mm. Although 6mm is better represented than 3mm, both have been having an increase in popularity recently, so while I think they could stand to be better circulated, I don’t have a ton of difficulty finding what I want to see.

    #125085
    Norm S
    Participant

    28mm is probably the industry’s preferred scale …… at the moment!  It dominates all media and the shows. It also dominates the hobby bricks and mortars store. The current sets of rulebooks seem to deliberately support the bigger scale or at least use it for illustrations.

    If one accepts that these people are ‘following the money’ then by implication, 28mm is pretty entrenched as a popular scale …. or at least the one that is generating more money at the moment. I imagine that in 1995, 15mm was generating the most cash.

    In some ways, in 2019, it hardly matters what you personal choice is, via the internet, you will be quite well supported. Step out of the inter-web and it is quite different. The Wargame magazines mostly give an impression of there being just one scale, with both content and advertisers suggesting so.

    the supply for the smaller scale ‘fancier’ is much more fragile that the bigger scales. If one of the smaller scale suppliers halted production for any reason, that would have a far bigger effect than if one of the 28mm suppliers did – even the main ones.

    There are supporters of the smaller scales putting up articles on the internet, but frankly, you rather have to hunt for them, while you will trip over posts etc for 28mm stuff.

    I suppose for all of us there are questions that will form opinion and push the direction of sales;

    Are you playing with armies you built 10 – 20 years ago and happy with that?

    Are you planning a new army and if so what scale will you be buying in?

    What are your gaming friends playing?

    Do you like modelling and painting?

    What limitations does your storage and game surface give?

    If Mike shows me a new game of (say) Bolt action that needs thirty figures and one tank and it gives a fun game – do I still want to grow armies that have a battalion of armour trundling across the table?

    If I show Mike my new force of 30 T-72’s, is he going to go away in awe and do something similar, or would he just prefer to add a jeep and an armour car to his Bolt Action game?

    There are die hard small scallers going to 28mm and there are ardent 28’ers downsizing to 10mm and out of all of this is an industry that somehow manages to make out lead mountains grow.

    So after all of that, I tend to feel that in the last 5 years my favoured scale of 10mm / 12mm is supported but not loved or admired by the extended hobby, that I am on the outside track looking in, largely invisible at wargame shows, definitely invisible in the magazines. But then I look at the new 10’s coming out in plastic from Victrix and Gripping Beast and suddenly I feel that the next 5 years may be a bit brighter – as this industry is just as much a victim of fashion as anything else.

     

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 7 months ago by Norm S.
    #125089
    Piyan Glupak
    Participant

    My preferred scales are 15mm and 6mm (at the moment, in that order).  Although there are places on the Internet that have voracious 6mm enthusiasts, there doesn’t seem as much exposure as with 28mm.

    Although I have 28mm figures I find that I hardly ever use them for mass battle games as 15mm and 6mm armies are more convenient (and portable).  Convenience includes playing area, storage, financial cost, painting and figure preparation.  Oh, and if you make a mistake painting a uniform on small figures it isn’t usually as noticeable as with large figures.

    28mm figures come into there own for skirmishing, but I am not really into skirmish games at the moment.

    #125092
    ian pillay
    Participant

    I prefer the smaller end of the figures 2/6/8/10 &12mm although I have a recent urge to get more 20mm and1/72nd plastics. There are some nice fantasy stuff available now. Hopefully 1/72 plastic sci-fi will take off……

    Tally-Ho!

    #125093
    6Mil Phil
    Member

    My fave for gaming, rather predictably, is 6mil by far. 28mm is where the cash is though…

    #125094
    Mr. Average
    Participant

    I’ll also say that it comes and goes. We’re at a particularly diverse moment right now with 6mm, 8mm and 3mm coming into their own. But I recall about five years ago 15mm was basically all there was, it seemed, and everyone had a 15mm scale skirmish game they were flogging on Kickstarter, usually featuring wheeled Soviet style vehicles, as though they were the first to think of it. There’s still a skirmish game glut but the offerings have definitely expanded in recent years.

    #125098
    Thuseld
    Participant

    6mm. But the only place I come to talk about it is here, where it seems to be well represented. I am a member of a few FB groups that deal with that scale also. I don’t know if it counts as underrepresented. Anything 28mm is an immediate turn off for me.

    #125099
    Thorsten Frank
    Participant

    Objectively observed currenly: 28mm GW followed by 20mm WWII.

    Personally: started with 1/300/6mm (Battletech) and 1/72 (20mm – various plastic types mostly ancients for DBA and a handful WWII). Back then started to collect some Spacelords 28mm but not many and have given them away and most of the ancients because of lack of players. Kept a few of WWII. Just in case.
    Played 6mm sci-fi for the following decades. For me the best for battlegroup type of games (I don´t really can´t get rid of DSII….) and space combat (FT and my favourite Silent Death)
    First left my comfort zone last year starting a 28mm sci-fi project. I want to keep it small and with not many figures (Space Trader type of game). Decision for 28mm was because the range of minis for my purposes was greater than in 15mm. My choice was on an emotional basis. I want to keep that small because of the prices. Currrently on hiatus due to:
    Started 15mm sword&sorcery this summer and left completely my comfort zone. Fascinating scale and available ranges for my purposes – in fact currently I´ve got only the wish for two certain miniatures (yes, two figures)  I haven´t found yet to be completely happy.
    And, gladly, there´s even more coming touching spots in me I didn´t know I have. There´s still much

    "In strange grammar this one writes" - Master Yoda

    #125100
    Thorsten Frank
    Participant

    Hopefully 1/72 plastic sci-fi will take off……

    What??? Is there something in the pipe? I´m searching for 1/72 sci-fi for decades now and I managed to miss nearly every small run made in this time.

    "In strange grammar this one writes" - Master Yoda

    #125109
    Mike Headden
    Participant

    Me too, Thorsten.

    Fortunately I picked up a large pile of GW “Dark Future” minis in a sale they had at the time they pulled the game.

    Also RH Models do some nice 20mm sci-fi stuff along with their other ranges. Order by phone only, no cart on their website(s).

    Elheim have some Gaslands type figures which do nicely for sci-fi too.

    Other than that it’s small 25s/28s or big 15s/18s. For example, Hasslefree’s Grymm (space dwarves) are my 20mm Heavy Worlders.

    Links for those not already aware of them:

    http://www.rhmodels.com

    http://www.rhmodels.yolasite.com

    https://www.elhiem.co.uk/

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 7 months ago by Mike Headden.

    Growing old is mandatory, growing up is entirely optional!

    #125128
    Brian Handley
    Participant

    I always think 28mm and above is really for painters.  They do play games but generally they are games not simulations.   At my persoinal limit, about 5 to 7 to 1 ground to figure scale the ground represented by a 28mm game is far to small to be of interest or to allow a good simulation of othere than VERY dence Urba areas.   However I am a self confessed simulator not a Lead pusher and spend more time playing than painting so am not a “normal” wargamer.   By one mans definition I would class as a Boargamer (perhaps gone Rouge).

    My prefered scale nowdays is an actual scale 1/144,  but I do modern, this is small enough with about a 7:1 figure to ground scale to give a plausible game in open(ish) rural area games.   If its abig urban area then 1/72 at about 5:1   Model  to ground scale is better.    “15 mm” seems OK if it is actually 15mm men in stokinged feet and no hat.    In addition 1/144 is ideal for those of us that have 3D printers as you can sculpt your own modela and terrain and markers and print them out without excessive time or cost, but that is secondatry to the above.

    #125158
    Blackhat
    Participant

    I have ditched all my collections below 20mm  (except 18mm Martian Empires) and am mostly collecting new stuff in 54mm and 40mm.  I started a 54mm wargaming forum to get more discussion going, but I really don’t have any opinion on whether stuff is under represented or not.  I am doing my own thing with some friends who also collect those scales and enjoy them and that is all that matters.

    At 56, I no longer feel the need to be cool or trendy… 🙂

     

    Black Hat Miniatures -
    http://www.www.blackhat.co.uk/

    #125173
    Radar
    Participant

    My preferred scale/figure size is 15mm, I do find it slightly disheartening the dominance of 28mm in magazines and at shows. It’s not the end of the world, but it would be good to see something other than 28mm represented in a printed magazine.

    15mm wise, Vapnartak is the best show for me as there are usually 5 or 6 15mm manufacturers present.

    Martin over at Peter Pig has tried to launch a 15mm centric e-magazine, downloadable free from the PP website. It’s a good start.

    Under representation seems to be a common theme with smaller sized figures (probably due to the absence of 15mm/10mm/etc manufacturing behemoths)

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 7 months ago by Radar.
    #125176
    Gone Fishing
    Participant

    Almost all my gaming is in 54mm these days, and has been for some years. I much prefer the big scale to all others, so yes, sometimes I find my interest wane regarding most mainstream sites and magazines. But then I don’t post photos of my projects and so have no right to complain! 

    #125179
    Thorsten Frank
    Participant

    Me too, Thorsten. Fortunately I picked up a large pile of GW “Dark Future” minis in a sale they had at the time they pulled the game. Also RH Models do some nice 20mm sci-fi stuff along with their other ranges. Order by phone only, no cart on their website(s). Elheim have some Gaslands type figures which do nicely for sci-fi too. 

    Huh? Elheim even has Colonial Marines in movie style. Never heard of both companies. Sadly, RH hasn´t any useful pictures to look at and I think this guy with a proper shop would make more than pocket money (but doesn´t seem interested).
    Anyway, both links are extremely interesting. I will have a close look

    "In strange grammar this one writes" - Master Yoda

    #125186
    Whirlwind
    Participant

    Underrepresented on the internet?

    I don’t know if 6mm is underrepresented on the internet.  I would like to see more of course, but it may just be underrepresented amongst gamers.

    Looking around on numerous sites, 28mm is by far the most talked about scale* and I am kind of feeling like starting some 28mm just to fit in!
    What are your perceptions around this?

    Whether you are right about it being the most talked about scale or about getting some to fit it?  Yes to the first, definitely.  For the second…I dunno.  Are you interested in playing the kind of games that 28mm is best for?  If so, go for it.  If I were just doing it for the painting, I would do 54mm / 1:35 dioramas instead.

    https://hereticalgaming.blogspot.co.uk/

    #125192
    Guy Farrish
    Participant

    It’s odd because I distinctly remember talking to various friends in the mid 1980s, who were lamenting the fact that 25mm were on the way out and everything was b****y 15mm these days and that Essex were going to take over the world.

    The competition circuit seemed to be dominated by 15mm- easier to move, smaller space required with standard DBA set up etc and the price of 25s was going up and up.

    Logic quite clearly dictated –  price, small modern houses, easier representation of big battles that everyone wanted – that 15mm and below would win out.

    I bought Betamax.

    I’ve got 2mm – 28mm and they are all useful and I can find stuff about them all on the web.

    The one thing I don’t understand at all is 28mm WWII and Modern – when there were huge ranges of 20mm out there already and frankly that is already too big for most games based post 1900.

    I still buy CDs as well.

    #125200
    madman
    Participant

    I started in the early ’70s with 1/285 Micro Armour. Still have my first GHQ minis. I have kept consistent with 1/285, 1/300, or 6mm as my main scale. It is the only one for which I have collected buildings and most terrain types.

    I have a lot of 25 mm fantasy (mass battle and RPG figures) and medieval mostly for mass battles. I don’t see anything about or referred to as 25 mm any more. I know about scale growth which I assume 28 mm really is. The only terrain is felt for roads and fields and the same lichen for forests. I have a handful of 25 mm sci fi from interesting figures from McEwan miniatures, Ral Partha and Citadel from back in the day and a couple Morrow Project figures as well.

    Being a big Traveller and Striker fan I bought into the 15 mm sci fi craze mostly for some character figures and some others for NPCs and for small unit actions in Striker but 6mm was the main scale for anything over a squad per side. The only terrain is 1/2″ grid massive paper sheets (sold for use on an easel during meetings) for making starship and some ground based terrain much like snapshot or Azhanti High Lightening. Recently I have acquired more for use in skirmish battles, anything from modern to sci fi. I could do 6mm for skirmish but it would be awkward for handling.

    I see rules “written for 28 mm” such as Chain of Command and Skirmish Sangin but feel changing from inches to centimeters and using 6mm would work better.

    Almost forgot. I have a handful of 1/2400 CinC modern ships, some RAFM(?) unknown scale Traveler starships, unknown scale(s) of starships from many manufacturers from the ’70s and ’80s and a goodly collection of GHQ 1/1200 Micronauts of age of sail ships.

    #125204

    20mm is my favorite skirmish scale.  Lots of rank n file choices in plastic for the periods I am interested in.  I can supplement these with metal.  I am working on AWI right now in metal.

    For big battles, anything from 15mm down through 6mm though the latter is kind of hard for me to see, at least when it comes to WW2 type games.

    I do envy people that dabble in the large selection of 28mm figures now and it does seem they spoiled for choice.  But 28mm is pretty expensive.  Maybe I would have done more  back in the day when metal prices were quite low.

     

     

    John

    "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."

    --Abraham Lincoln

    #125208
    McKinstry
    Participant

    I’m very much a 3mm,  6mm and 10mm guy for land games and 1/2400, 1/3000 and 1/6000 for naval.

    I have 28mm for Saga but as I often tell my gaming friends, I think 28mm and above would be much better used melted down into larger numbers of useful 6mm.

     

    The tree of Life is self pruning.

    #125248
    irishserb
    Participant

    I’m not sure that I perceive any scale in gaming as being under represented.  My approach to scales is pragmatic, choosing scales for different periods, based on intended scope of games in the given period, and availability of figs in that scale.  I accept that some of the subjects that I game are not that popular (Victorian adventure in the South Pacific?, Soviet-Afghan war, etc),  so don’t see much on those subjects in my preferred or any other scale, but I don’t expect not to see much posted about them.

    More generally, what I find is that my approach to, or execution to miniature gaming often tends to be in a minority, so I don’t see much posted about games similar in style or execution to mine.

     

    #125253

    25/28mm is the sweet spot for me. Large enough that I can see to paint, small enough to have a reasonable looking game on a 4×8 table. As a size, they certainly are not under-represented on the interwebs.

    However, my particular interest–ancients–I think is dominated by 15mm coverage. I, too, remember when 25mm was king in the early/mid 90s. Then there was a lawsuit in New York which prompted the move to ‘lead free’ figures which doubled the prices. Less expensive 15mm started making inroads and the introduction of DBA 1.0 encouraged smaller armies but more diverse collections. As the DBX-esque tournament scene developed it emphasized conformity to that size. Frankly, I felt left behind.

    Now, with the popularity of rules using skirmisher size forces and the introduction of nice 28mm plastic historical figures I think the pendulum is swinging back to the larger sizes. I’ve dabbled with 10mm ACW and 54mm figures (and I’m currently thinking about 3mm) but 25/28mm are probably still the sweet spot for me.

    Self taught, persistently behind the times, never up to date. AKA ~ jeff
    More verbosity: http://petiteguerre.blogspot.com/

    #125330
    Rhoderic
    Participant

    “Underrepresented” implies it’s secretly more popular (in terms of sales and “unseen” hobbyist engagement) relative to how much representation it gets on the internet. As such, I’m not convinced any scale is underrepresented. Magazines and shows may be a different matter, but the question wasn’t about them.

    This will (ironically) be a minority opinion, but I think there’s more than just downsides to following patterns of popularity. There are upsides to it as well. I strike a balance by having a wide and diverse range of projects all across the spectrum from “very niche” (e.g. 3mm swords-and-sorcery massed battles using repurposed historical ancients) to “fairly mainstream” (e.g. 32mm Reaper D&D-style adventurers). I try to get the best of both worlds that way. One upside I see to going along with “the popular thing” is that there’s more occasion to make human connections that way. Even when those connections are unilateral (like when I, as part of the fanbases of some popular YouTubers, want to be doing the same thing they’re doing), there’s a sense of belonging in it for me. That has worth. It’s a positive in my life, so I don’t see anything wrong with it.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 7 months ago by Rhoderic.
    #125347
    Alan Hamilton
    Participant

    Depends what I am doing.  Most of my figures are what we call 20mm mainly because I started in the 1960s with Airfix and still use the Infantry Combat Group against German Infantry series 1 on occasion.  So 20mm for WW2, AWI, ACW, Ancients etc.  28mm for fantasy, Dark Ages, pulp, Darkest Africa and the grandchildren inspired Mars Attacks, Zombies, Lord of the Rings.

    The scales (sizes) are well represented on the web though some of the “20mm periods” less so (AWI and ACW in particular)

    my 1/1200 WW2 naval seems to be a rarity.

    #125411
    Roger Calderbank
    Participant

    Overall, I think the Internet (including this and other forums) has vastly increased the representation of almost every scale.

    20+ years ago, when I was doing 6mm Napoleonics, there was almost no visible representation of that scale in magazines, shows and other media then available. It felt as if I was doing something unique, even though the existence of the figures indicated there must be others out there doing something similar. Now, I can find representations of any scale, and almost any period or genre, relatively easily. My ‘preferred’ scale (actually different scales for different things) is influenced by the greater availability of examples and information that the internet provides. I don’t expect any source to provide ‘only’ what I’m interested in.

    I’m not troubled by the concentration on 28mm in magazines and at shows. Magazines generally want lots of pretty pictures, particularly close-ups, and it is easier to get suitable images with 28mm than with smaller scales. Similarly, I think it is easier to make an impressive demo at a show with 28mm figures. Many demos of smaller scales, which would look amazing in a ‘domestic’ setting, are a bit lost in the large venues where many shows are held. If I see a demo that inspires me, I know that I’d be operating in a smaller area, and can decide for myself whether I could do it in a smaller scale and be happy, or could adjust the game to the available area, if I wanted to keep to the same scale. Again, the internet would be helpful when considering either option.

    RogerC

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