Home Forums Horse and Musket Napoleonic It’s not just modellers,

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  • #174528
    Avatar photoOotKust
    Participant

    reenactors get it wrong too!

    I was researching horse furniture and uniforms for pre-Empire Austrian uhlans and came across:-

    Austerlitz-2011 Anniversary example_

    Notice? The uhlan officer has a ‘roqelor’ both stowed in the normal position, under the holster caps, but is also wearing one! Photo borrowed from Pinterest.

    I thought it would make an attractive illustration on my ‘Austrian Commands’ storage box.

    On modelling- I have a question about a certain specialty/ character figure from CRM (ex WF ranges) that I’ll post later.

    cheers d

     

    #174568
    Avatar photoMartinR
    Participant

    It is obviously a damp day so perhaps he’s just slipped on his field cape and left his saddle furniture nicely set up.

    I’ve got no less than ten Zeltbahns, it is a lot easier than finding a whole other section of pals to build a Zelt Palace.

    Most re enactors of my acquaintance have far more stuff than they can possibly wear, so why muck around when you can just get another item from the huge heap back in camp.

    "Mistakes in the initial deployment cannot be rectified" - Helmuth von Moltke

    #174569
    Avatar photoMartinR
    Participant

    I came across a photo of a Canadian private with his water bottle on his left hip, AND he didn’t have his anklets on, just rolled up BD trousers.

    Real soldiers don’t adhere to the dress regs either…

    "Mistakes in the initial deployment cannot be rectified" - Helmuth von Moltke

    #174572
    Avatar photodeephorse
    Participant

    Back in the day I carried two canteens on my 58 webbing.  One was the standard issue plastic model, and the other was made from aluminium.  It made the water cooler and more pleasant to drink.  I also stuffed chocolate bars into my respirator case.  They were much easier to access than if I had put them in my kidney pouches.  Soldiers will always try to modify what they carry and how they carry it.

    Play is what makes life bearable - Michael Rosen

    #174574
    Avatar photowillz
    Participant

    Yep agree with deep horse military uniform regulations when being examined by keen, enthusiastic and informative modellers/ reactors have not taken into account the practicality of the combat wearing and use of uniforms whilst in the field or on patrol.  My uniform when worn for several months had little resemblance to what was required in the regulations.  I always adapted my uniform for the required patrol or mission.

    #175689
    Avatar photoOotKust
    Participant

    I wonder, on further research, if we are to believe that even the great chroniclers of fashion took liberties? Looking at Edouard Detaille, whos passion and enthousiasm for his subjects, as a form of PTSD recovery after 1870, reputation being made on these bases.

    I’ve read criticism of that ‘position’ of carrying arms- so is it real?

    https://digitalcollections.nypl.org/items/510d47e1-0ac8-a3d9-e040-e00a18064a99

    Did he extrapolate a later period ‘method’ that may not have existed at the time depicted?

    Similarly- a favourite and close subject to my heart, les Carabiniers:

    https://digitalcollections.nypl.org/items/510d47e1-0b4e-a3d9-e040-e00a18064a99

    The horse furniture in use, varying over time- the ‘norm’ applied per Rousellot etc. among others, being the sheepskin and round valise- itself a rather anachronistic feature [according to whom it was re-introduced about 1808] since, the norm, being round for legere, and square portmanteaux for ‘heavies’.

    Thus is Detailles’ depiction an error, misjudgement or whimsy? The close resemblance to those of the grenadiers á cheval cannot be mistaken. His reputation for accuracy, research and thoroughness has sometimes been brought recently into question.

    I guess if records do exist, we will have to wait for ‘new’ confirmation via the incredible work of PLDawson coming out.

    I note sadly a degradation of the services from the NYPL- they’ve restricted their available online downloads to a miserable 1600px scan which is next to useless for serious research.

    regards ~d

    #180618
    Avatar photoOotKust
    Participant

    Thus is Detailles’ depiction an error, misjudgement or whimsy? The close resemblance to those of the grenadiers á cheval cannot be mistaken.

    I omitted to point out that other research on the ‘next Heavy’ regiment in la Garde, that of the ‘new 1806’ Dragons de la Garde– also adopted the two tier shell shaped holster covers, however in the traditional ‘dark’ green, as used by various others including ‘les gros talons’. Seems a perfectly natural progression to me.

    Despite the summary blanket illustrations by famous artists, the three-tier scallop shaped holsters, subsequently adopted by figure manufacturers everywhere, it seems these probably existed, at least among the first few squadrons as created, up to about 1809 campaign. They were rushed off to the campaign of 1806-07 in haste and I think Lachoque reports a motley crew.

    Another interesting point, perhaps, was that the Dragons never had a surtout (except trompettes- bleu de ciel); Rousellot repudiated his own original work illustrations at a later time.

    Seems in some bizarre twist of regulatory incompetence (?), they were only ever (from 1806 to 1814) issued two complete, full dress habits. No reference to or examples of a ‘second’ uniform have been found. Even, the Young Guard squadrons received them. Yes, there is a reference to all green ‘stable jackets’ being worn, perhaps in 1815.

    Interesting twists and turns, maybe…*

    regards d

    PS*- And in case you wonder, why do I care?
    Well in a plan of many decades age, I had indeed included some inventory for the said Dragoons- albeit without many horses. As I have arbitrarily now ‘extended’ my 1805 Corps and Garde Imperialé to include up to 1807, it seems churlish not to include the probable two complete squadrons that existed at the time.

    A ‘mini’ regiment of 8 figures seem possible to me. Tho it is way, way down the ‘ToBeStarted’ list.

    — —

    #180699
    Avatar photoHeroy
    Participant

    “is Detailles’ depiction [of the carabiniers’ portmanteaux] an error, misjudgement or whimsy?”

    Looking only at contemporary images, and awaiting Mr. Dawson, it looks like troopers received round ones in 1810 and both officers and troopers received square ones for the Russian campaign.

    Carle Vernet – Eugene Lami
    http://www.napoleon-online.de/Bilder/VernetLami_Tafel25.jpg

    Aaron Martinet
    http://uniformenportal.de/_data/i/upload/2019/04/29/20190429221540-bcf45475-me.jpg

    Christian Wilhelm Faber du Faur
    http://www.museum.ru/museum/1812/Painting/fore/pic/fdf23c.jpg

    Carle Vernet
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/Grande_Armée_-_1st_Regiment_of_Carabiniers.jpg

    #180710
    Avatar photoOotKust
    Participant

    Thanks Alexandre, yes I was aware of the variety posed.

    Thankfully I’m not doing ‘late’ troops but the same ‘mix’ appeared to co-habit in the Republican period, where my ‘new’ 1st Regt (though bearing for 1805) will be based; the existing painted unit becomes the Second.

    The ‘new’ First regiment will exhibit some variety as I see- sheepskins a la legere with round portmanteau; similar double holsters to Grenadiers a Cheval, no sheepskin; and a few of the ‘1808’ standard issue* square portmanteau with anochronistic round portmanteau.

    Hopefully all very entertaining… won’t be till next year as I have to modify GáC figures (bearskins)  in various ways and add epaulettes in Milliput! In ‘true’ 25mm Miniature Figures™.

    cheers dave

    *I’m guessing the Martinet plate influenced figure manufacturers to make these models.

     

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