KG Klink, France, Game 4

[Just Jack]

All,

It’s 1000 on 14 May 1940, and KG Klink, attached to the 7th Panzer Division, has been directed to reduce a French strongpoint manned by elements of their 5th Infantry Division. Elements of 7th Panzer Division stream by to the north and south as 2nd Panzer Platoon, 2nd Infantry Platoon, and 4th Infantry Platoon fall out of formation into an assembly area, then launch their attack on this thorn in the side of the armored thrust.

The opposing forces, with both sides having a mixture of armor and infantry.

The Germans have their CO, two rifle platoons, a tank platoon, and a (worthless) mortar).

The French have their CO, two light tanks, two 25mm anti-tank guns, two rifle platoons, and a mortar.

Overview, north is left, east is up, the Germans are attacking from top to bottom. I started the French on blinds, placed the Germans, then uncovered the blinds. The French infantry and guns begin in emplacements, and with concertina wire (not pictured, I put it on the table after I took this pic).

The German line up, from north (left) to south (right): 2nd Inf Plt, 2nd Pz Plt (with CO nearby and mortar to their rear), and 4th Inf Plt.

The French left has an ATG at far left in emplacement, and two rifle squads (one ATR) in the ville. The French central position is Hill 47, with their CO and three rifle squads, backed up by an ATG, rifle squad, R35, and mortar at the stone farmhouse, and posted to the far right flank is the other French tank.

Things were going pretty well until ze Germans got a little too aggressive in pushing their tanks forward. Those are German tanks and French infantry. The results were… different.

To see the whole fight, please visit the blog at:
http://blackhawkhet.blogspot.com/2015/05/kg-klink-france-game-4.html

What a fight, tense right up to the very end. I hope you enjoy it, and sorry for so many fuzzy pictures; at this point I’d stop considering it a bug, more of a feature from our (fake computer) war correspondents…

V/R,
Jack

[kyoteblue]

Hot damn !!! I’ll read this when I get back from getting Joyce food.

[Rod Robertson]

Just Jack:

It seems you survived your brush with the Black Death of Texas (aka the common cold). Glad you’re feeling better.

A very exciting report and as always your narrative style adds immensely to the perception of action unfolding before your eyes. Well done! I really liked the action around the red-roofed farmhouse. Good stuff!

I’m sorry but I cannot control it! Must suppress the need to correct…. Try to say nothing!… No!… Do not mention the ATR’s!… Do not let on that the French didn’t have any and had no doctrine for their use!… Do not intimate that French doctrine used VB grenade launchers rather than ATR’s!…. Do not utter that the French and the British swapped some Boys ATR’s for some Hotchkiss 25mm ATG’s but that the ATR’s were used by more elite formations like Dragons Portees and not by infantry divisions!…. Do not ask for clarification if Jack means The French 5th Infantry Division or the French 5th Motorized Infantry Division as both were in this area and there is a slightly better chance that the 5eme Div. Mot. might have received some ATR’s!…. Say nothing! Stifle yourself and stop being a picayune nit-picker! Fight the urge to ….

Oh, hell! Did I say that out loud? No? Phew!

Well, thank heavens I got past that bout of temptation.

Cheers and good gaming.

Rod Robertson.

[War Panda]

Another excellent outing Jack. Very enjoyable.

Impressed with Rod too…what restraint 🙂

“The great Gaels of Ireland are the men that God made mad,
For all their wars are merry, and all their songs are sad.”

[kyoteblue]

Very exciting and just what I need on this cool wet evening !!!! I see the Twistercon Dice got used…could be why the Germans did so well……..

[Just Jack]

Thanks guys.

Except Rod, of course.  It seems that after a hundred missed shots, you finally got me.  The French didn’t use ATRs.  Unless those were Dragoons using Boys ATRs swapped from the Brits.  The world will never know…

Ah hell, I’ll give you you’re victory, Rod.  That’s the French 5th Infantry Division, who shouldn’t have ATRs, but they do in the game because I actually didn’t know that the French didn’t use anti-tank rifles.  I’d commit ritual seppuku, but I’m not man enough.  I can’t believe you haven’t picked up on the fact that I used a Sdkfz 250/10 through all of Poland and France, or that all my new Pz Mk IIIs are either J or K models with the barrels clipped off!!!  Of how about the fact my Char Bs and H39s (which I used as R35s) have tank commanders popping out a non-existent TC hatch atop the turret (the hatch is on the back of the turret)!!??

I’m sure there are other mistakes that I’m not aware of, or maybe forgot.  I thought I could get away from rivet counting by making up my own fictional kampfgruppe.  I guess not.  😉  In any case, the game was fun, and I will continue to use my French ATRs purely out of spite! 😉  Damn you, Minifigs!!!  I blame them; if they didn’t make 10mm French anti-tank rifles, I wouldn’t have 10mm French anti-tank rifles.  And thanks a lot Rod; just like a professor to let you know about a mistake after you post a batrep.

You know, I’ve posted photos of every single battlegroup/army/force (choose the term you feel comfortable with) I’ve ever finished, so here is the Rod challenge: Rod, I challenge you on your wargaming manhood!  You must go to my blog and review every single post that showcases a recently finished force of mine, catalog the force’s historical errors (and my errors are legion), then provide them to me in writing.  Failure to do so means you’re not really serious about this, and the blame for any and all future battle report anachronisms/inaccuracies will be laid solely at your feet, Sir 😉

It appears my ebola is clearing up.

V/R,
Jack

[War Panda]

They are some fancy looking dice he’s got and they did break that run of bad German luck.

But the question is: did they cause Jack to come down with that dreadful head cold…runny nose, slight head ache, watery ears (oh I’ve been told  that’s normal for Jack…)…

 

“The great Gaels of Ireland are the men that God made mad,
For all their wars are merry, and all their songs are sad.”

[War Panda]

I’ll be honest I’m terrified about posting a BatRep …I’m not quite as strict as Jack with historical representations…if you look closely at the beginning of “Hold Until Relieved” you’ll notice the German 2 platoon arrive in Scooby Doo’s Mystery Machine…Rod never even noticed

“The great Gaels of Ireland are the men that God made mad,
For all their wars are merry, and all their songs are sad.”

[kyoteblue]

Oh and thanks for pointing out the Where Is Waldo, Just Jack !!!!  Rod for shame…get to work now.   War Panda they make a 28mm Mystery Machine now ????

[Just Jack]

You bring up an excellent point, Panda: “I’ll be honest I’m terrified about posting a BatRep …”

It’s easy to be brave when you don’t even know how or believe in posting pictures to the internet 😉

And dude, The Mystery Machine is only for elite troops…

V/R,
Jack

[War Panda]

And dude, The Mystery Machine is only for elite troops…

LoL yes exactly but did the Professor notice…

Speaking of “noticing”…Don’t think that a certain reference to the thrice number of the panda beast went unnoticed…trivializing the Mark of the Panda is not to be taken lightly my friend…that’ll bring you another dose of the tummy flu no doubt 🙂

And Rod no more showing off on the whole “Golly Gee I love Reich Number Three” we all know you’re a Nazi fanboy and at the drop of a hat you can recall the number of buttons on the formal dress jacket of SS Obergruppenfuhrer Kluass Muller at the 1941 Berlin Christmas Party*

* (yes Rod you’re correct… the answer is none… trick question 1941 Berlin Christmas Party was Fancy Dress costume and he went as Princess Louise of Prussia but was taken outside and shot after the Nazi’s thought the party was gatecrashed by a Scottish Highlander

“The great Gaels of Ireland are the men that God made mad,
For all their wars are merry, and all their songs are sad.”

[Rod Robertson]

But I said nothing!?! I showed restraint and made no comment.

As to the Jack challenge -No. However, all your errors are noticed and then silently disapproved of.

Finally Jack wrote: “And dude, The Mystery Machine is only for elite troops…”

That was just cruel.

Cheers and correct gaming.

Rod Robertson.

[Rod Robertson]

Warped Panda:

What are you on about? Snap out of it man, you’re rambling and even more incoherent than normal. Number of the Panda? Reich #3?  Nazi costume balls? You’ve completely lost it. There must be some sort of delirium gripping Alberta and Texas as you and Jack seem to understand the incoherent babel you two are exchanging. So as all good doctors should recommend to animals in Panda’s state, take two cyanides and call me in the morning.

Cheers and good gaming.

Rod Robertson.

[Just Jack]

Incredible restraint, Sir, absolutely astounding 😉

Just to be clear though, that’s the “Rod Challenge,” not the “Jack Challenge.”  And whaddaya mean, no?  You’re either dedicating your life to wargames accuracy or you’re not, there’s no middle ground 😉

The “Jack Challenge” is playing as many games as humanly possible.  I was perusing the blog earlier, and here’s a stat for you guys: in August I’ll have had the blog for two years, and as of today, 5 May 2015, I’ve posted exactly 100 battle reports.  That’s 100 battle reports, right there at your fingertips, to peruse for your enjoyment.  One Napoleonic game, the rest are WWII to present, almost exclusively ground combat, with a few airgames thrown in, all but the air combat is 10mm; strike that, there are a few 6mm games as well!   Lots of different rules, albeit mostly my bastardization/cannibalization of various rulesets.

I’m not a mathematician or anything, but I believe that works out to almost five per month for twenty-one months.  French troops with anti-tank rifles is a small price to pay for 100 batreps 😉

As I’ve been lying here thinking about dying, I did up a roster for my “All Americans” for Overlord (you’ve seen them in Sicily and Italy so far), I did up a roster for USMC starting in 1994 (calling it “The American Foreign Legion”), I’ve been re-familiarizing myself with my “Cuba Libre” alternate history project (got some painting to get done), I’ve been looking at taking former Medal of Honor awardee SSgt Banaszak to Japan for medical treatment (he was seriously wounded, if you recall), back to the States for rehab, then through Officer Candidate School, a few schools/State-side assignments, then back to The ‘Nam as a rifle company commander, and I’ve been staring mercilessly at Pendraken Napoleonics.  Somebody stop me…

V/R,
Jack

[Just Jack]

“Warped Panda” – that’s good, I like that 😉

“…the Mark of the Panda…”  Yeah, Rod, you gotta read the batreps, not simply look for flaws in the TO/E.

“…take two cyanides and call me in the morning.”
Now that’s too far!  I’m calling PETA!!!

And I’ll give you sissies a hint: there’s something in the batrep that will really tickle you if you actually pay attention.

V/R,
Jack

[kyoteblue]

Just say NO to Nappys Just Jack….lets go back to Nam !!!!

[War Panda]

And I’ll give you sissies a hint: there’s something in the batrep that will really tickle you if you actually pay attention.

 

It’s where you call Rod an insufferable bore (boar)??…I did think that deserved highlighting

 

 

“The great Gaels of Ireland are the men that God made mad,
For all their wars are merry, and all their songs are sad.”

[War Panda]

100 AAR’s is especially impressive!

When compared to Rod’s total it’s even more impressive:

100 vs 0! Sounds like the score of an Ireland vs Scotland rugby game

“The great Gaels of Ireland are the men that God made mad,
For all their wars are merry, and all their songs are sad.”

[War Panda]

Jack I was trying out the 5Core rules…loved the movement rules…no I’m serious loved the movement….came to the shooting and I was getting a little disgruntled …I hadn’t much time and I realized after a few minutes I was doing it wrong…troops in cover that haven’t fired are untouchable? I was constantly going back to check on the various morale statuses which were kind of confusing me…pinned, bailed, flinched, hunkered down, dazed and confused…the last couple is a description of my metal state (in my defence it was very late and I was extremely tired)

I’m excited about trying them out again

“The great Gaels of Ireland are the men that God made mad,
For all their wars are merry, and all their songs are sad.”

[kyoteblue]

Hey Just Jack the next time you get up to okieland  you should come on out to the big house and play a 5 core game with me. That way I could learn the rules and you can see just how badly I roll dice. Goddess knows I have the terrain and figures to do it.

[Rod Robertson]

Given the Panda’s general misdemeanor and penchant for stirring up trouble, everybody knows the number of the Panda is 9. And his cult affiliation is Manicheanism. Thus we can conclude that he is all black and white and thoroughly Ursa-nine!

The Warped Pamda wrote: “I’m excited about trying them out again”. Goats?

Cheers and good gaming.

Rod Robertson.

[Shaun Travers]

Jack – not sure if it tickled me, I saw it more as …wait for it…an omen <groans can be inserted here>.

[Just Jack]

“The Warped Pamda wrote: “I’m excited about trying them out again”. Goats?”
He never stopped 😉

“…not sure if it tickled me, I saw it more as …wait for it…an omen…”
No, not the Mark of the Panda.  There’s something in one of the (almost 80) photos.

Panda – regarding combat results, it really is simple:

Shock 1: pinned, can’t move (until rallied) but can still shoot.  Don’t let them react in the turn they were pinned (I may have made that part up, I can’t remember).  Slightly penalized if enemy gets to them in close combat.
Shock 6: Fall back (6 inches I think; I usually make them go as far as they have to to break LOS with the unit that inflicted pain on them) then hunker – can’t move or shoot until rallied.  Don’t let them react at all, pretty penalized in close combat.
Kill 1: ‘men down,’ can’t move or shoot until rallied.  Don’t let them react at all, pretty much may as well surrender in close combat.
Kill 6: outta da fight.

The book has a little more in there, particularly regarding dealing with troops in cover, but start with that and ratchet it up as you find necessary For example, the rules say don’t allow units firing at troops in cover to use kill dice, only shock dice; I definitely use that.  Most of the time.  For example, if a tank goes up and is practically sticking his muzzle in the firing port of a bunker, probably gonna give him some kill dice 😉

My armor ‘return fire’ house rule is that if a tank/ATG/ATGM fires at a tank (or tank fires at ATG/ATGM) and doesn’t get any kind of combat result (a total miss), the target gets to return fire for free.  I’ve also thought about using it for higher quality troops vs lower quality troops, i.e., if low qual troops fire at high qual troops and don’t get any result, the high qual troops get to return fire for free.

That’s what I mean about the rules being robust, there are 18 million opportunities for different variations you can throw in (or not) to suit your taste, and you’re not going to break the system.  What I’m wary of is the fact I’ve been playing things ‘my way’ for so long I’m not sure anymore what’s in the rules and what’s been made up by me.  I’m only mostly joking with this 😉

I find that, the more I play, the more I start to go with what ‘feels right,’ using the rules as an overall guideline but able to effortlessly move things around and adjust to fit the exact situation, the way I see it.  I’ve mentioned I’m not a fan of IABSM, but I love the concept of there not being a hard and fast rule to things, that there are ‘bad’ shots, ‘okay’ shots, and ‘good’ shots.  Luckily I’m a solo gamer, so not a lot of arguments on that front.

All respect to the Dear Commie, he gave us wargaming gold with his crazy ass 5Core system!  And a nod to Judas, I mean Saul, or Paul, or whatever Rod was calling himself when speaking of not being a convert.  To me, it’s a given in wargaming that not everyone will like the same rules, that’s why there are eight million different sets.  Although in this case it simply means Rod is not a proper wargamer (I need AB’s “Old Bean” photo) 😉

V/R,
Jack

[War Panda]

Jack thank you for this incredibly lengthy explanation…I’m sure you’re sick to death of having to explain the rules 🙁

Have you changed anything on the rallying rules? I’m a little confused and concerned about

in this case it simply means Rod is not a proper wargamer

Something at last we all can agree on 🙂

“The great Gaels of Ireland are the men that God made mad,
For all their wars are merry, and all their songs are sad.”

[War Panda]

The Warped Pamda wrote: “I’m excited about trying them out again”. Goats?

Who could the author of this be? Riddle me this. What’s filthy minded, obsessed with goats and dresses as a girl?

Rod of course. Typical dirty minded Scottish Prof

“The Warped Panda wrote: “I’m excited about trying them out again”. Goats?”
He never stopped

 

What’s filthy minded, obsessed with goats and dresses as a goat?

Jack of course. Typical dirty minded Texan Marine

Okay I’m a grown man (easy Jack) and I’ve seen and heard things that would turn most men’s stomachs (and Rod’s head) but nothing I have witnessed or heard could have prepared me for the utter depravity of this twisted comment:

Jack – not sure if it tickled me, I saw it more as …wait for it…an omen <groans can be inserted here>.

 

Let me translate that for those who don’t spell Australian

 

Goats– not sure if they tickled me, I saw it more as …wait for it… an “Oh Man” <groans (of sheer pleasure) can be inserted here>

 

Disgusting…utterly disgusting …the graphical sexual nature of this post cannot be tolerated even here

And who posted this shameful assault on human decency and dignity?

Shaun?

What?

No!!!

Not Shaun!  Not friendly and kind Shaun?

No!

Not Shaun who humiliates Rod so effectively (I love the way he so subtly changes one letter of Rod’s name to display his apathy and disregard…genius, pure genius)

Shaun you had fooled me…all along you handled yourself as a gentleman from Down Under …now I discover you are a gentleman handling yourself down under ……and presumably any nearby goats you can get your dirty paws on…

I am shaken I admit…my faith in humanity itself is broken…<sob> <sob> ….

Okay who’s next…haven’t picked on Blue recently….

 

 

“The great Gaels of Ireland are the men that God made mad,
For all their wars are merry, and all their songs are sad.”

“The Warped Panda wrote: “I’m excited about trying them out again”. Goats?”
He never stopped

 

What’s filthy minded, obsessed with goats and dresses as a goat?

Jack of course. Typical dirty minded Texan Marine

Okay I’m a grown man (easy Jack) and I’ve seen and heard things that would turn most men’s stomachs (and Rod’s head) but nothing I have witnessed or heard could have prepared me for the utter depravity of this twisted comment:

Jack – not sure if it tickled me, I saw it more as …wait for it…an omen <groans can be inserted here>.

 

Let me translate that for those who don’t spell Australian

 

Goats– not sure if they tickled me, I saw it more as …wait for it… an “Oh Man” <groans (of sheer pleasure) can be inserted here>

 

Disgusting…utterly disgusting …the graphical sexual nature of this post cannot be tolerated even here

And who posted this shameful assault on human decency and dignity?

Shaun?

What?

No!!!

Not Shaun!  Not friendly and kind Shaun?

No!

Not Shaun who humiliates Rod so effectively (I love the way he so subtly changes one letter of Rod’s name to display his apathy and disregard…genius, pure genius)

[Just Jack]

Panda,

“I’m sure you’re sick to death of having to explain the rules…”
Negative, I love to talk about rules.  The part I love, though, is when people read what I wrote and respond 😉

“Have you changed anything on the rallying rules? I’m a little confused and concerned about”
I don’t think I’ve changed anything, but I need you to finish your sentence so I can help ya out.

“Okay I’m a grown man (easy Jack) and…”
Easy yourself, buddy, 3′ 4″ is not what we call grown (sorry, I don’t know how many centimetres that is).  I’ve always wondered how you mount your goats; some sort of catapult or pulley system?  Or is it the other… NO!!!!

Sorry, couldn’t help myself 😉

And Panda, clearly you’ve never been to the land down under: Aussie’s like sheep 😉

V/R,
Jack

[kyoteblue]

Damn sheep herders !!!!

[Rod Robertson]

You’re all mentally ill and quite obsessed with farm animals or jungle beasts. Is this a wargaming forum or a Doctor Dolittle malpractice suit in the making. Some decorum, please!

Jack:

I have now looked at all 79 @&%$#*!!! pictures three times and I have found nothing. I will content myself with ignorant bliss. Beware the Niggling Ninja!

http://www.energy2action.com/Goat_Ride_Revised_2012_revised-_Converted_GIF.gif

Warped Panda:

Grow up! Oh, I forgot, you can’t. Pandas are traditionally very quiet animals so why not try to emulate your spirit totem and abide in silence for a bit.

http://th02.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2011/204/c/8/big_disgusting_panda_by_biggiebang-d41dud7.jpg

Shaun:

I apologize on behalf of all Canada for the irritable leprechaun from Alberta. There is nothing we can do about it. He didn’t just kiss the Blarney Stone, he ravished it and made it very slippery. Yuck!

http://www.wallpaperbod.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Animals-Beasts-Panda-Near-The-Stone-.jpg

Kyoteblue:

Thank you for remaining a gentleman through all of this. You are a credit to Oklahoma, the US of A, and wargamers the world over. Good luck on your peace mission to Frothonia!

Good day all!

Cheers and good gaming.

Rod Robertson.

 

[Rod Robertson]

Just Jack:

I meant to mention that the Shipwreck rules from QRF/TSS arrived Monday. I hope they got to you in good time too! And a big thanks to Geoff!

Cheers and good gaming.

Rod Robertson.

[kyoteblue]

Snort.

[War Panda]

Okay today I spent 30 bloody mins  on a master piece detailing what I loved about 5core and the subtle troubles I felt on the firing/morale side…The damn computer froze as I was calling Rod something or other (it’s his bloody fault) and all my work was forever gone…I stormed off to a meeting in anger….rarrr!!!

Now I know this sounds a little fishy but someone has slipped me a little alcohol at my evening meeting and now I’m too tired and emotional to post anythong other than my wishes for all here to have a jolly good time doing whatever you find yourselves doing at this very moment in time. If I was a betting man I’d put money on that you’re reading this post but hey…

Talk to the bulk of you soon…and of course a farewell to all the other crew too  (not entirely sure what I meant by that but I was meant to be a dig at Rod’s waistline that kindof failed)

John the Pacifist Panda (truth is I can’t bear war…get it…BEAR war…panda BEAR)

I am wasted on you all…well I am wasted

“The great Gaels of Ireland are the men that God made mad,
For all their wars are merry, and all their songs are sad.”

[Just Jack]

Rod,

“…Is this a wargaming forum or a…”
How dare you!?  I say, how dare you, Sir!?  There are days I’m convinced someone actually pays you to come here and talk about anything but wargaming! 😉

“I have now looked at all 79 @&%$#*!!! pictures three times and I have found nothing.”
Take a look at the photo where the two French reinforcement squads arrive.  You’re looking for Panda’s pregnant girlfriend.

“I will content myself with ignorant bliss.”
The usual, then?  Academics: everything’s fine until there’s work involved 😉

“Thank you for remaining a gentleman through all of this.”
No he’s not, he’s an incontinent old hippie, that’s lost his mind, as evidenced by his recent accepting of the appointment as Peace Emissary to Frothers.  Don’t encourage him!

Old Man, my buddy Kyote, you’ve lost you’re damn mind!  What are you even talking about brother?  There’s not a war going on, as if such things were possible on the internet.  There’s a couple D-bags at one place and a couple D-bags at the other, and as a matter of fact, several hang out at both, as well as here and a couple other forums. It’s been said, but I’ll say it again: there’s no “TMPers” and there’s no “Frothers;” it’s all the same people hanging out on TMP, Frothers, TWW, Pendraken, LAF, The Guild, The Lardies’ Forum, Specialist Publishing (BKC/CWC/FWC).  Hell, I’ve even seen some of the same people on the Ambush Alley and GHQ forums.  And I’m sure there are probably some forums I don’t even know about.  It’s all the same people, and they mostly get along on all the other websites, but there’s a couple of them that reserve TMP and Frothers for taking shots at each other.  I don’t know if you realize it, but I have seen, with my own two eyes, you chat with a couple of the “Frothers” you’re looking to go and make peace with, right here on TWW!  And you guys got along great, as do I and everyone else (at least as far as I can tell).

So, I’ve got great news: mission accomplished, and it was a roaring success!  You made contact with the Frothers and peacefully discussed wargaming with them.  Now, if you think you’re going to change their mind about the Editor of TMP, well, that’s…  Well, I dunno, have a great time.

Rod – I receive my copy of Shipwreck today and read it this afternoon.  It’s funny: I read through, page by page, and by the time I finished the rules section I was almost despondent.  THIS IS FAST-PLAY MODERN NAVAL!!??  AND I DON’T UNDERSTAND ANYTHING!!!  But then I saw the scenario walk-through, and Praise the Lord, I see the light!  I will still say that it’s pretty in-depth for ‘fast-play’ rules (and I gather that Harpoon, et al., must absolutely suck the life out of guys like me), but at least I understand it.  The first thing I think I want to focus on modifying is the missile attack.  In the scenario there are two US ships and two Soviet ships; the US find the Soviet ships first and each fire eight (8!) Harpoons at the enemy.  EACH!  The Soviets are quickly swamped by missiles, one ship going down and the other dead in the water.

I need to read up on tactics and strategy, which I don’t know much about.  The book says most ships don’t carry anti-ship missile reloads, and their tactic was to fire their whole complement then head for the hills (waves?).  Can that be true?  You have 8 Harpoons for your whole 6-month cruise and you fire them all at once?  What if you run into more bad guys?  And how big of an a-hole are you if you your first missile breaks the back of the target and your other 7 missiles splash into the water harmlessly?

I need to find some real-life historical sources.  I know the Argentinians regularly used Exocets against the Brits in the Falklands, and I recall the Iranians using Silkworms regularly in the 80s.  I think the Indians and Pakistanis have traded some anti-ship missiles, and I’ve got to believe th Israelis have done so with the Arabs as well.  I don’t recall hearing of ships or aircraft launching salvos of eight missiles at a time; the only place I remember reading that was in Clancy’s “Red Storm Rising.”  Any ideas?

I probably need to make this a separate thread to seek some help.

V/R,
Jack

[Just Jack]

Did Panda just duck out of reading my reply and answering my question again?

[kyoteblue]

Looks like he did Just Jack. Oh and I have done even sillier things.  I’m just tired of the TMP Frothers wars. Shrug.

[Rod Robertson]

Jack:

Please go to the naval forum for my response.

Cheers and good gaming.

Rod Robertson.

[War Panda]

Oh for the love of monkeys!!!

I want my MAC back…if this post freezes again you’ll never hear from me again

 

Okay I started off with Flames of War some years ago. Started playing it and was loving playing with toy solders until a unit of Germans were able to run across a street in front of a platoon , several MGs and a number of tanks without the remote chance of  receiving fire.

I acknowledge that certain abstract elements to a rule system may not be intended to make immediate sense to the gamer but in the context of the overall formula of the system its role provides an overall acceptable result in regards to how authentic and realistic it may be as a war simulation. Okay no one can tell me that we’re not intending to make a game that’s in some way representative of war even if it isn’t.

This element of Flames of War irked me. According to my imagination it stuttered and spat and stuttered some more.

So this is my point. We game to enter into a imaginary world of our own creating. Moving this imaginary narrative along is the role of the  rules.

This imaginary  journey whose director are the rules can have some problems that I’ve listed here:

1.   If the system offers something that our subjective imagination can’t accept as reasonable…. there’s a problem.

2.   If the system neglects what the imagination insists is a critical component in representing certain elements of conflict…. there’s a problem 🙂

3.   Sometimes the mechanics themselves nudge us out of the imaginary world and into the boring world of rules and piles of them for every eventuality ….problem number 3

4. The rules in some area and some reason are not fun as a game! We’re not just recreating a battle for the History channel. We want to be entertained.  Problem 4

IABSM is an example of this. I started playing it right after I got disillusioned with FoW

IABSM introduced me to random activations. I really liked them (something I also liked about Bolt Action.)

Also loved its emphasis on the importance of leaders…this became an essential component of my understanding of what I want from a game. (again I understand this is a subjective idea. I could have this wrong or an imbalanced view of its importance)

But with a combination of the stuttering firing chart and IMO an annoying depreciating number of actions as the size of a unit decreases IABSM suffered tremendously from Problems 3 and 4 🙂

Crossfire was an immediate hit with me. Loved it. Really simple. As elegant as the finest pigmy goat Jack. Couldn’t fault it apart from perhaps been too realistic 🙂 Firefights could become stalemates where the initiative would swing like a pendulum with either side reluctant to risk going over the top to assault. For this reason at times Crossfire suffered from Problem 4. In this area, especially in Normandy type terrain the games could become gridlocked…not making for the most exciting of games. This might seem harsh but it was my experience many times.

I also found that the game often required an peculiar design of table to work properly…and I wasn’t crazy about the abstracted way units might move enormous distances while others remained static. I can understand why. I can see the reasoning behind the mechanism but again I struggled….so Problem 1

But what about 5Core???

First off. Movement in the game was fantastic. Loved the dash command…random movement. Loved the enemies ability to respond to LoS scurries. This is an amazing but simple mechanism that really can change the face of the battle very quickly. Really changes the dynamic of a game…(bloody hell its terrible having to recall what the ^$#@^%^ said five hours ago….

Fitted beautifully into what I could imagine the speed in which the face of the battlefield might change (ie mechanisms like the enemies ability to respond in scurry and displacement of hidden units) …. (I want to work on maybe certain elite troops or highly tactical leaders or Ace Tank commanders Wittmann and co. having a certain ability to change the direction or distance of the random dice result maybe…regardless loved this)

BTW I was using squads spit into three man units using the same rules as a platoon…as Jack mentioned somewhere else I don’t think anything needed changing as a result

As mentioned earlier I’m a fan of random activations and I’m not enamoured about the abstracted manner of activating only some units. I think each one should be capable of activating within the defined limits of time, influenced by the quality of leadership and the morale status of the unit. For this reason I loved Bolt Action.

The shooting and morale system I struggled with a little. I again emphasise that I haven’t played a lot and its unfair to judge until I’ve played more but my initial impressions are that I prefer a more gradual depreciation of morale. A beating down of the opponent. Rather than an instant random effect that has immediate positives or negatives.

Best I’ve seen this modeled is Bolt Action. Now Bolt Action IMO suffers from many ailments. But I believe it has an amazing morale system. Fast, simple to understand and implement and shows the gradual deterioration of a unit. This IMO increases the apparent  need for leadership in making that ineffective unit functional. This fits into my own personal taste for the narrative. Its how I want my narrative to be shaped and directed.

Okay I’m done …its silly late and I’ll talk again about this. But I’m definitely going to play these rules and probably in the end introduce some additions and modifications. But great great core to this game.

 

 

“The great Gaels of Ireland are the men that God made mad,
For all their wars are merry, and all their songs are sad.”

[Shaun Travers]

Aussies like beef, New Zealanders like sheep.

I, like Rod, scanned all the photos, found nothing.  and with your hint and looking at the photo, and ones up and down from it,  still nothing.  May need a bigger hint.

To stay off topic but still gaming, I have TankWreck, by the same person who did ShipWreck.  Not a bad set of rules, even if it it uses d10s.

[Ivan Sorensen]

I love how I can read one of these threads and by the end of it, I have no idea what the first post was any longer 🙂

Panda-lover –
I hear you on the “instant vs gradual” effect on units. That’s just one of those things where a game either does one or the other.

The big issue is that it means tracking stuffs. In IABSM (f.x.) it’s no worry because you acn remove individual figures but in say Crossfire, you can’t.

One thing that has really stuck with me was a piece from an old book that talked about how, in Italy in ww2, a British infantry section was considered combat effective pretty much as long as the Bren gun was still active.
That was a big part in turning me on to the “binary” approach to infantry squads or at least in a “Good enough” sort of way.
I think that’s probably something thats scale dependent too.
If I am the company commander, my knowledge of an individual squad is probably limited to “Are they capable of fighting right now”.
If I am a platoon commander, I’ll probably have a much better idea of exactly what their situation looks like.

On the upside, if you came around to the movement rules, you’ll probably come around on this one too 🙂

[Ivan Sorensen]

I should add, the “best” morale system I’ve seen was in Stargrunt. But again, it required the use of markers to track it.

[Just Jack]

Kyote – knock yourself out  man 😉

Rod – I’ll take a look.

Panda – I agree with your ‘Wargamer Problems 1-4.”  I also have my issues with IABSM and Crossfire, haven’t played Flames of War.  I got a set of the rules once and took a look, but I was kind of confused.  Everyone said they were so simple, but to me there looked to be lots of fiddly stuff, i.e., ‘this is the rule, unless x happens, then do y, but if z happens, please revert to a.’  I was looking for simple and that wasn’t it.  I really wanted to like it for the Infantry Aces stuff, but it just didn’t work out for me.

Regarding 5Core, I’m digging it.  The sprint works well, as does displacement, and teams work just as well as squads.  If you’re looking to offset troop quality, there are plenty of options, here are probably the two best/easiest:
-Better troops activate 1 per 2/3, worse activate 1 per 3/4.
-An ‘Asset’ to allow an extra activation for a turn.  Give the better troops 1, 2, or 3 of those in a game.

“…I’m a fan of random activations and I’m not enamoured about the abstracted manner of activating only some units.”
Regarding the 5Core activation system, certainly it’s not for everyone.  The Bolt Action-style activation was my favorite, now bumped to my second favorite method.  If you recall, previously I always counted up units, put a card in the deck for each unit (any unit could be activated at player’s choice, not a card tied to a unit like IABSM), then pull and activate.  If that’s your thing, do it brother.

But let me explain why the 5Core system works for me.  To me, I’m the player and I’m a part of the game, I’m actually the commander.  I say that’s the leadership aspect; in 5Core Company Command, I’m the leadership.  From the way you talk, you want to play a Company-level game (actually, I believe you want to play a Platoon-level game), but be the Company commander, the four Platoon commanders, and the 9-12 Squad leaders.  Please note that this is not a knock on how you game, and I’m not saying my way is better, I’m just building up to why 5Core works for me.  My point is that you look at 5Core and wonder where the leadership is, i.e., where are my Platoon and Squad leaders?

I like the idea of ‘perspective-based’ games, meaning I’m the Company commander (in this case), so I don’t get to (perfectly) control the Platoon and Squad leaders.  They’re there, they’re assumed to be mostly doing what they’re supposed to be doing, and since that is the case they are not represented on the tabletop.  Sometimes I get a ‘hero’ (see all the Iron Cross winners in KG Klink); these guys don’t affect whether a team activates or not, but they do perform a major function of combat leadership, they keep their unit in fighting shape (by getting ‘free’ rallies).  I also give them bonuses in close combat as another nod towards their above-average combat leadership.  Now, it’s not perfect, I still get to affect too much control over the various elements (i.e., I choose exactly where a squad goes, who it engages, and when this happens sequentially, within the framework of the activation system), but to do otherwise would require 1) a bunch of other humans to run the platoons/squads, or 2) some ridiculously cumbersome mechanism to try to simulate a bunch of different people seeing things differently and making up their own minds as to what the best course of action is, doing their best to stay within the framework of the commander’s (my) orders.

So, in my humble opinion, this is exactly where the 5Core activation system shines: I addressed lower level leadership above, but let’s not forget the point, which is that I am the Company commander.  As the Company commander I know I can always get something done, but I can never get everything done.  I’ve got small-unit leaders that are doing their best, but they don’t necessarily see things the way I do, they probably zig when I’m thinking zag (and if you’re unit is good/experienced enough that this shouldn’t be such a huge issue, bump up their capability as we discussed above with troop quality), so in this light it makes perfect sense to me that normally the Company commander is only getting a portion of his unit to do what he wants it to do.  It also helps that, in my mind, I picture firing is pretty much an ongoing deal, that the game started about when the firing started, and it’s ongoing, that when a unit activates/reacts to fire we’re simply kind of ‘chalking it up,’ i.e., calculating the results.

So, from that, it also makes sense to me that there are lulls in firing which my small unit leaders are able to take advantage of and push everyone forward (scurries), or they could even be periods when enemy is as intense as normal but my small unit leaders are really on top of their game and pushing troops forward anyway.  And it also makes sense to me that there are times when, for example, enemy fire picks up and all my units go to ground and cut loose with everything they’ve got (firefight).

My real-life perspective on the situation is this: a Rifle Company is moving forward, then takes fire.  Everyone (not everyone in real life, but functionally at this level, where we’re not tracking every single troop) goes to ground, and small unit leaders are kicking ass to build up their firing line and get their men returning fire.  The Company commander wants his weapons going, so he moves over and gets them going.  Then (next turn) he wants men moving, so he puts his focus on a specific area and gets those 2-4 squads moving/firing (if you want to make the game more realistic, make it that you can only activate units within 4″ of the Company command stand, but that would really be challenging and would totally discount/disrespect small unit leadership).  Then he moves over and gets these other units moving, and if he’s really lucky all his small unit leaders get their men moving at roughly the same time for a serious push (or if you’re defending, they get everyone in the fight to unleash a torrent of fire).  But mostly that commander can only influence a few units at a time (turn).

This is why the USMC has four man fireteams (a Corporal can handle the movement and fire of three other men under fire), a squad has three fireteams (a Sergeant can handle three teams), a platoon has three squads (a Lieutenant can handle three squads, with the help of his Platoon Sergeant 😉 ), etc…  And even so, you still can’t keep everyone doing something all the time, there’s guys clearing stoppages, reloading, repositioning, ducking, assisting a casualty, talking on a radio, etc…

So the 5Core activation system works like a champ to put me in the mindset of being the Company commander.

Regarding the ‘gradual degradation,’ I understand what you’re getting at and why it’s cool for you, but I’m with Ivan (obviously, that’s why I play the rules).  Again, everyone has their own view on what they’re trying to have happen, but let me explain why the 5Core works for me: first, minus the ‘kill’ result, they are all temporary and can be countered by combat leadership IF 1) you have above average leadership in the right place at the right time (this gets to the issue of should you put that unit with the hero in the line of fire, knowing it can quickly rally itself, but also risking losing it) OR 2) devote your Company commander’s time (by moving him to base contact or spending an activation).

In the manner of flinch (pinned) – hunker (suppressed) – man down (a single casualty takes four guys to move, almost half a full-strength squad, and they need to get him out of the line of fire immediately; again, if you want to make things more realistic/difficult, put in rules for CASEVAC) – out of the fight is a graduated scale of degradation, without denying the fact that modern (WWI to present) weapons have the ability to put a squad out of the fight in the blink of an eye (albeit a 1 in 6 chance), with the understanding that a squad out of the fight doesn’t mean twelve dead men; again, you have three non-ambulatory casualties and that’s squad is out of the fight getting them right and back to the aid station.  It’s takes 15 minutes to get those wounded back, fight’s over by then…

And I also agree with Ivan on the Company commander’s perspective – those guys are in the fight, they’re out, or they need someone to get over there and kick them in the ass to get them back in the fight.

Try that on for size, Panda!

V/R,
Jack

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