Home Forums General General Kickstarter Grump!!

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  • #165651
    Angel Barracks
    Moderator

    Saw a KS recently for a single product which had been sculpted, moulds made and stock cast.
    How is this a KS project?

    Is it not a bit dishonest and a slap in the face to those who just make product and put it on their site?

    I won’t buy/pledge from people like this.
    I also won’t buy/pledge when I see the target some people set and I know how OTT that is, having an idea on sculpting, moulding and casting costs, some people definitely inflate their goals.

     

    /grump ends.

    #165653
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    Never subscribed to a Kickstarter, never will.

    If I buy a car I’m not expected to contribute directly to the R&D and production costs before they build it. An extreme example, but why should any other consumer product be different?

     

     

    "I'm not signing that"

    #165655
    deephorse
    Participant

    I’ve subscribed to one Kickstarter, and the Baccus “Pony Wars” thing which was like part a kickstarter, and part not.

    The actual Kickstarter was for a book of AFV paintings by David Pentland, a well known painter of military subjects.  He might do trains as well, I’m not sure.  I felt secure in backing him because of who he is, and because I knew the standard of his work as I already owned one of his prints.

    Anyway, the book was produced, and backers got, IIRC, 6 postcards of various paintings, plus one larger print of your choice suitable for framing.  Your name was also printed in the book as a backer.  It was money well pledged, and the book is a treasured possession.

    Play is what makes life bearable - Michael Rosen

    #165656
    Guy Farrish
    Participant

    My view is pretty much what NCS said.

    I’m happy that some obviously work out to everyone’s satisfaction but the situation AB outlined strikes me as a bizarre distortion of the idea, whether you agree with the basic concept or not.

    Kickstarter says: Our mission is to help bring creative projects to life.

    The product is there ready to retail. How can a Kickstarter help bring to life something that is already on the shelf?

    Why pretend a straightforward retail sale is a crowdfunder? I presume there is some advantage for the seller and I’m struggling to think of a legitimate one.

    #165658
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    The actual Kickstarter was for a book of AFV paintings by David Pentland, a well known painter of military subjects. He might do trains as well, I’m not sure. I felt secure in backing him because of who he is, and because I knew the standard of his work as I already owned one of his prints. Anyway, the book was produced, and backers got, IIRC, 6 postcards of various paintings, plus one larger print of your choice suitable for framing. Your name was also printed in the book as a backer. It was money well pledged, and the book is a treasured possession.

     

    That’s another puzzler.

    Pentland is a well known illustrator (I Googled him, lots of hits) which suggests that he’s established. I’m struggling to understand why he’d need to crowdfund his job. To be frank, the prospect of some ephemera and a signed copy of the book isn’t a real inducement is it?

     

    I assume this is the book. It’s on sale on his website.

    "I'm not signing that"

    #165661
    willz
    Participant

    I do not understand kick starter projects, please help me understand?

    If you have a good idea for producing wargame figures, take the plunge and risk yourself or with your own investors, why have the cheek to ask complete strangers to take the risk for you.

    On that I have a small box that will power your car, train, plane or any other electrical device, all I need from everyone who wishes to invest is £500000 and I will send you the box at a later date.  Items will be posted from the Cayman Islands .

    #165665
    Thuseld
    Participant

    I have pledged to a few kickstarters in my time. Here is my history:

    1. I pledged to the Reaper Bones 1 kickstarter. The whole things was they had designed the miniatures, and many had metal versions that already existed, but needed the money to set up manufacturing for a cheaper, plastic version. I dropped just over $100 on it, and ended up with hundreds of miniatures. It was worth it.

    2. I pledged to a person who needed funds to buy a bigger laser cutter, in order to make larger MDF flatpack terrain. I paid what seemed like a good price and it got made.

    3. I pledged to the Reaper Bones 2 kickstarter. Same story, just as happy with the result. Although, I think the money was more for purchasing, rather than having to retool the machines and stuff?

    4. I pledged to some computer game that never got made. I only lost like £5 on it so it doesn’t bother me at all. But I have never again pledged on anything. So maybe it did bother me?

    I like the idea of helping someone fund some upfront costs to get an idea off the ground. I like the idea of helping get funds to someone who just needs a little more, in order to expand a service. I don’t like the idea of just paying for products that exist but haven’t exactly been made yet.

    #165667
    Alex
    Participant

    I’ve backed loads on KS over the years now; had most successfully deliver. Plenty wouldn’t have seen the light of day without KS – I definitely see the value of it but the example AB gave is definitely one of those that misuse it slightly.

    Alex (Does Hobby Stuff)
    practising hobby eclecticism

    #165675
    Thomaston
    Participant

    @ Mike and willz
    Maybe look at it as market research. It’s like asking on a forum if anyone wouold buy this except peolpe who pledge would actually spend money on it rather than say they would but not buy it in the end.

    Having said that I’m with Not Conrad Sage, never backed a project and probably never will. I don’t visit the site enough and I don’t mind waiting to buy it once its in mainstream market.

    Tired is enough.
    I like tiny miniatures

    #165676
    Darkest Star Games
    Participant

    I’ve got a couple of things to say about this…

    I used KS to get DSGs 15mm line going and I feel like I used KS as it was originally intended.  At that time I didn’t have the personal capital to layout (3d printing was much more expensive at the time) but I had images of the 3d models I had made and a plan.   My main goal was modest and the stretch goals weren’t unreachable and the basic pledge cost was about a 30% (IIRC) from what retail cost for the models would be.  I had even factored in shipping (which a lot of KS do not, which results in their $ being gobbled up and often leaving them unable to do anything more).  I had a 3 month delivery schedule and was lucky enough that I was able to get everything out to backers a month early.  In the end it was a very successful (in my eyes) launch and a HUGE help in bootstrapping DSG into a real miniatures company.

    Since then I have not needed KS for funding, as DSG has been self perpetuating, and I have had the joy of sharing the toys I want to create and play with with the rest of the world from Wainwright (Alaska) and Tierra del Fuego to Mongolia (for reals!) and even a French Ambassador to Turkey.  KS worked as designed for my endeavor.

    Since then I’ve pledged to more than a dozen KS, most of which are start-ups, and some have been great, like the campaigns by Loud Ninja games and Reaper.  Some have been stinkers, like the Robotech KS (one of those that didn’t have the expertise in the production team, over-promised what could be done and was eaten up by shipping), and some failed to fund (mostly video games).  I’m still waiting on some video games to be completed but I’m not worried about them.

    What I dislike about KS is as has been mentioned above: Many companies use it as a retail site and business model, most notably MCON and the “big” glossy box game guys, but also a lot of 3d STL file makers.  KS doesn’t balk at this because it’s all money in their pocket.  And on the customer end for the most part the campaigns are a good deal compared to retail with all sorts of extras, and then you only have to wait like a month?  Why not!  Sadly, this does have a trickle down effect on the small campaigns that need the help.  It’s a lot like what goes on at conventions/shows: “I really like your stuff but I spent what I had at X, maybe next year…”

    YMMV.  For me I think  it’s a mixed bag.  Kickstarter worked for me, has gotten me some good stuff and occasionally failed.  I’d like to see it used “correctly” to really help those that need it to get going rather than used as just another storefront.

    "I saw this in a cartoon once, but I'm pretty sure I can do it..."

    #165677
    Blackhat
    Participant

    Kickstarter has become a market place.

    I did have  major problem with someone who continually runs little kickstarters and who one Christmas ran one with all the figures ready to send out.

    I complained to him and Kickstarter that it was breaking the rules of the site.  Nothing happened, though he did change his wording to try and say he was raising money for new moulds…

    I will back kickstarters that are trying something new or raising funds where you know the project won’t happen without those funds.  Mostly I’ve backed reaper bones and a couple of boardgames…

    Black Hat Miniatures -
    http://www.www.blackhat.co.uk/

    #165680
    Jim Webster
    Participant

    Purely by chance I’ve never supported a kickstarter, but one comment I’ve come across from people involved is that with some kickstarters, pretty much the only sales they got were through the kickstarter.
    But I can understand why people would do it. Some things do cost a lot of money to tool up for, and it’s a gamble. Do you take a risk, and in some cases fall in with the bank’s wishes for you to put your home up as security? Or do you run a kickstarter?
    Personally having had my home as security for my business, I would look seriously at the kickstarter 🙂

    But like a lot of these things, people end up taking the mickey and give a good idea a bad name

    https://jimssfnovelsandwargamerules.wordpress.com/

    #165685
    deephorse
    Participant

    Pentland is a well known illustrator (I Googled him, lots of hits) which suggests that he’s established. I’m struggling to understand why he’d need to crowdfund his job. To be frank, the prospect of some ephemera and a signed copy of the book isn’t a real inducement is it? I assume this is the book. It’s on sale on his website.

    Obviously for you the ephemera would hold no value, but, equally obviously, you are not his target market.  Why he needed a KS to produce a book I do not know.  Maybe it had something to do with the product being a book?  After all, he would have to produce all the scores of paintings before he could make the book.

    I wanted the book to be made, and so I was content to support the project. I felt that the risks were minimal.  Had the proposer been someone I’d never heard of, and/or with no track record to research, then I probably would not have supported it.

    Play is what makes life bearable - Michael Rosen

    #165687
    Jim Webster
    Participant

    Pentland is a well known illustrator (I Googled him, lots of hits) which suggests that he’s established. I’m struggling to understand why he’d need to crowdfund his job. To be frank, the prospect of some ephemera and a signed copy of the book isn’t a real inducement is it? I assume this is the book. It’s on sale on his website.

    Obviously for you the ephemera would hold no value, but, equally obviously, you are not his target market. Why he needed a KS to produce a book I do not know. Maybe it had something to do with the product being a book? After all, he would have to produce all the scores of paintings before he could make the book. I wanted the book to be made, and so I was content to support the project. I felt that the risks were minimal. Had the proposer been someone I’d never heard of, and/or with no track record to research, then I probably would not have supported it.

    If you’re producing a book yourself (as opposed to putting it out through Amazon,) you’ll have to pay the printer and everybody associated with it in advance. So there’s a large outgoing before you start getting money back. So I can understand why he went for a kickstarter. He does at least know he’s got a chance of covering his costs before he starts

     

    https://jimssfnovelsandwargamerules.wordpress.com/

    #165692
    Mike Headden
    Participant

    I’ve backed quite a few Kickstarters (actual KS and some KS-style) and have to say my experience has been pretty good.

    Some of them have hit glitches and have delivered late but, so far, all have delivered what was promised eventually. Several of them have exceeded expectations in delivery times or freebies or, in one case, both.

    I quite like the virtual add-ons that many offer.

    I would never commit money I couldn’t afford to lose.

    If I never dealt with people manipulating the rules I’d be living in a cave, wearing animal skins and foraging for food! 🙂 🙂 🙂

    So far on Kickstarters

    Non, Rien de rien
    Non, je ne regrette rien.

    😀

    Growing old is mandatory, growing up is entirely optional!

    #165705

    … I would never commit money I couldn’t afford to lose. …

    I think that’s the key. I’ve never backed a Kickstarter but I can see its utility for small, niche products and start-ups. It’s a way to spread the risk. But to use it as a retail outlet? Hmm… no.

    Self taught, persistently behind the times, never up to date. AKA ~ jeff
    More verbosity: http://petiteguerre.blogspot.com/

    #165740
    Grimheart
    Participant

    I have backed 7 kickstarters over the last 4 years and have got very good value from them.

    Only one had a few issues with delays and a few minor items never delivered but as I got serious value for money for what i did get I still count it as a success. However it did highlight the dangers of some of these KS over promising and not doing their sums correctly so the old adage “if it sounds too good to be true….” still applies!

    I have not directly come across the type of KS that is effectively just a shop front for stuff already made but like Mike H it probably wouldn’t bother me that much as its a fine line imo.

    It could be someone has invested a pile of their own money to get the stuff actually made and needs a bunch of initial sales to recoup that investment quickly, which a KS could do. I don’t see how that’s worse than a normal KS asking you for money up front….if any thing its a lot safer!

    Cheers

     

    Interest include 6mm WW2, 6mm SciFi, 30mm Old West, DropFleet, Warlords Exterminate and others!

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