15/03/2019 at 22:41 #110889
For the person asking about flags here : http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=502583
and anyone else interested, I think the following is about right – but please do add comments/corrections ….
The Koporye Musketeer (later Infantry) regiment were given flags of the 1803 pattern:
white flag : httpCOLON//vexillographiaDOTru/russia/rarmy/1803typ0DOTgif
color flag : httpCOLON//vexillographiaDOTru/russia/rarmy/1803typ2DOTgif
Based on the color swatches in Dolgorukov “Khronika ….” (1799) and a surviving flag, I might opt for a slightly different “color”:
The Koporye Musketeers were the 4th in seniority in the 3rd Infantry division in late 1808, when regulations on painting woodwork were promulgated. As such they should have had black flagstaffs. The flags turned in 1814 (as Jonathan discusses here : http://zaotlichiye.net63.net/allfacings.html ) still had black.
The regiment lost one color flag at Gotland in 1808. So in 1812 they would have had :
With the 23rd Infantry division from late June
1st Chief’s battalion (4 companies) : 1 white and 1 color flag
3rd Commander’s battalion (4 companies) : 2 color flags
With the Riga Garrison
2nd Replacement battalion (3 companies) : 1 color flag16/03/2019 at 02:01 #110893
I’m fairly certain, as explained on my page, that the regulations were never applied to old units during the war. Ironic that I just discovered all this stuff a couple of weeks before the question. I believe the flag and the facings of the Inspection matched, although who knows what that turquoise looked like.
There was a second question about lace on the early shakos. I scoffed a bit, started checking, got very confused, figured it all out. Then I realized I had looked at it all once before and had forgotten it! 🙂 So I revise my page to make things clearer and added some stuff – early officer shakos probably had a double band around the top…
JG17/03/2019 at 00:03 #110963
“Mogilev is represented by two flags, one with d.brown and the other with a l.brown staff. Mogilev would never have used coffee flag poles, except initially.”
Mogilev’s initial flags, on formation, were 1 white and 5 color “green” of model 1803, ordered 5.IX.1805 and presented in April 1806. These war-time flags were never actually lost, but rather torn to pieces to avoid capture in 1808 and generally shot to pieces in 1812. They were ordered to be (honorably) re-issued on 13.IV.1813 and were presented on 27.III.1814. These replacements had *green* poles per Commissary Document 1406, as were those of several others re-issued at that time.
Can we suppose that the Artillery History Museum inventory compiled around 1900 saw shades of brown for the weathered, oxidized green?
For the war-time flagstaffs, per PSZRI 23,382 of 5.XII.1808, we should have straw yellow, black, white, straw yellow (in that order) for four Musketeer regiments in a division.
Vislovatov gives us : 28.IX.1809 – 5th Infantry division, 1st briagde Sevsk & Kaluga Musketeers and 2nd brigade Perm & Mogilev Musketeers (in that order) – which appears to be the same as in January 1807 at the time of Eylau, and at various points in 1808 during the war with Sweden, and so we might assume this to be the organization of December 1808.
As so we see Mogilev in 4th place and give them straw yellow flagstaffs and other woodwork, yes?
Maybe not ….
The January 1808 Regimental seniority list per Popov is : № 5. Perm, № 40. Sevsk, № 78. Mogilev and 79. Kaluga
So Mogilev is in 3rd place ?
PSZRI 23.382 of 5.XII.1808 says nothing about repainting, and I would think it would be utter chaos trying to re-paint with every organizational change. I think it means : “today we all paint – once”, and I would think them likely to follow a Law and do so. By extension, new units getting new flags might adopt the color per this divisional sequence.
But the Law is not a model of clarity. How do we rank the regiments in a division? by seniority as regiments?, by the seniority of their chiefs? by their position in the division’s brigade structure? Here are the chiefs as of December 1808 …..
Севский пехотный полк – шеф генерал-лейтенант (с 13.IX.1799) Тучков 1-й
Калужский пехотный полк – шеф генерал-майор (с 12.XII.1807) Казачковский
Пермский пехотный полк – шеф полковник (с 28.IX.1800) Мезенцев
Могилевский пехотный полк – шеф полковник (с 2.III.1800) Князь Сибирский 1-й
By this measure, Mogilev is again in 3rd place. But if Major-General Kazachkovskiy had left the Kaluga Musketeers and been replaced by their Commander, Colonel (from 23 April 1806) Apostoleyev, then Mogilev would have ranked 2nd by seniority of the Chief.
“some months after the 2d Grenadier Division is formed [on 27.III.1811], their commander Karl von Württemberg”
генерал-майор (с 8.VI.1800) шеф Московского Гренадерского полка Принц Мекленбург-Шверинский Карл Август Христиан (1782—1833) – в 1812 г. командующий 2-й гренадерской дивизией
18/03/2019 at 03:55 #111001
- This reply was modified 1 day, 23 hours ago by Alexandre Heroy.
A truly interesting thought. I really don’t like the idea of Mogilev with coffee woodwork, but realized that it was the logical outcome of the “rules” I was using to analyze the info from Opisi… so I shouldn’t change it just because I didn’t like it. But you do point out a reasonable alternative. A sticking point for me is that I don’t think 1406 is very reliable. Too many seemingly incorrect data elsewhere. And there is no precedent before or after for green staves. But I can’t help thinking that green would be more likely to fade to different shades of brown than coffee would, so I have to think about it.
It is so tempting to argue that the white of Petrovsk and the browns of Mogilev were not the color originally distributed. This to support a theory that all new flags for the field units were black. (Although that loses a bit of glamour as secondary sources already give black albeit for perhaps the wrong reason.)
The Opisi… does suggest Russian practice was a bit more haphazard than the regulations suggest (or that the compilers of the Opisi… were a bit sloppy…)
As for the German, I will have to check Popov and see if I took a wrong turn…yup Karl Mecklenburg…18/03/2019 at 12:36 #111024
I still don’t know what was *intended* PSZRI 23.382 of 5.XII.1808 : ranking by regimental seniority, by chef’s seniority or by brigade structure?
If I had to guess, I would opt for regimental seniority, and so white flagstaffs for Mogilev in Decemebr 1808 (and no reason to repaint them later).
The Petrovsk Musketeers’ initial flags, on formation, were 1 white and 5 color “black” of model 1803, ordered 10.VI.1803 and presented in 20.X.1803.
I do not know of them losing any or being awarded any others througout the period.
In June 1807, the 21st Infanty division in formed from the Velikie-Luki, Neva, Petrovsk, Libau & Pernau Musketeers (in order of regimental seniority) and the 2nd Jägers.
The 21st Infantry division fought in combined-arms detachments, not formal brigades, in 1808 in Sweden.
By September 1809, the list of regiments was unchanged, and the brigade structure was …..
— 1st brigade Neva and Petrovsk Musketeers
— 2nd brigade Libau and Pernau Musketeers
— 3rd brigade Velikie-Luki Musketeers and 2nd Jägers
On the basis of the above, if PSZRI 23.382 was intended to be applied in December 1808 by regimental seniority, then Petrovsk should have had white woodwork – as found in the Museum inventory circa 1900.
Picking another of the regiments (at random), the Vologda Musketeers’ initial flags, on formation, were 1 white and 5 color “blue” of model 1803, ordered 10.VI.1803 and presented in 20.X.1803.
In February 1807, the 19th Infantry division was formed from the Kazan, Suzdal, Belev, Sevastopol & Vologda Musketeers (in order of regimental seniority) and the 16th & 17th Jägers.
The division was stationed in the Caucasus.
By September 1809, the list of regiments was unchanged, and the brigade structure was …..
— 1st brigade Kazan and Suzdal Musketeers
— 2nd brigade Belev and Sevastopol Musketeers
— 3rd brigade Vologda Musketeers and the 16th & 17th Jägers
On the basis of the above, if PSZRI 23.382 was intended to be applied in December 1808 by regimental seniority, then Vologda should have had black woodwork – as found in the Museum inventory cicrca 1900.
maybe a pattern?18/03/2019 at 16:55 #111034
New regiments got 5 colored and one white post 1803. Since they would be the least senior regiments they were the first to be converted to jaegers in 1811, when they would have returned all their flags. Supposedly otherwise they, like everyone else, would have returned the white and two colored in 1814, then the last 3 if and when they were disbanded or changed flags.
It is tempting to think Petrovsk, up in Finland, held onto all theirs, in part because the museum did not receive them until 1825 (but they may have been returned to arsenal earlier and collected later).
Vologda’s flag is the white, so presumably it came back in 1814.
Because we are not sure of the post 1803 woodwork, we have to rely on the 1797 flags. Looking at the whole data set is congruent with no Flag staffs being repainted, and not with them always be repainted. Of course the truth may be somewhere in between.
- This reply was modified 6 hours, 56 minutes ago by Jonathan Gingerich.
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