Home Forums Ancients Leather Lorica Segmentata – historical or Hollywood?

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  • #142479
    Alan Hamilton
    Participant

    While building a number of Roman Legionaries for my model Legion I have been watching a number of Roman related movies, DVDs, TV series and several show legionaries or, perhaps, auxiliaries in a leather version of lorica segmentata.  Now I find that I have a few extra figures and might paint them in leather (or not – undecided).

    I am aware of the image on Trajan’s column depicting what could be interpreted as a soldier wearing a leather version.  Also of finds of leather fastenings.  But so far my research has failed to find any literary reference nor any archaeological evidence of the “leather lorica segmentata”.

    I am also aware from my criminology lecturer (many years ago) that absence of evidence should not be taken as evidence of absence.

    So thoughts on painting up my surplus legionaries in leather armour just for a change?

    I can always convert them and fit them into a fantasy force for one of my other projects of course!

    #142483
    Geof DowntonGeof Downton
    Participant

    I am inclined to the view that Hollywood is a perfectly acceptable source of research; my Biblical models owe as much to Hollywood as to either the Bible or archaeology.

    For example;

    …maybe Sheba was somewhere in the Americas…

    One who puts on his armour should not boast like one who takes it off.
    Ahab, King of Israel; 1 Kings 20:11

    #142487
    Rob youngRob young
    Participant

    People get a bit too serious about these details – lots of years have shown me it’s best to go for the ‘enjoy’ factor rather than the ‘total accuracy’ factor.  My fading memory tells me that the Lorica Segmentata was mainly a western thing, that the eastern legions may not have adopted them, and that the main reason was that the Celts were the only metal workers able to  make decent Segmentata – true or not, good story. I once painted up a unit of hoplites as Hollywood Greeks – used them  as Carians – black armour and helmet – looks good.

    Rob Young

    #142490
    Alan Hamilton
    Participant

    Thanks for the encouragement on the “value” Hollywood based research which, of course, I have used in my Greek forces that includes Ray Harryhausen based Jason and his Argonauts.

    BTW Geoff, where did you get the Queen of Sheba set of figures? They are exactly what I need for one of my Hyborian characters.

    #142491
    Not Connard SageNot Connard Sage
    Participant

    It’s not even known what the Romans called the various lorica, the terms we use are an 18th century invention. However, no leather segmentata has been found, but that may not be surprising. Auxilia, especially in the eastern empire often wore their native armour and clothing.  The uniformly dressed auxilia may also be a myth.

    However (again), they’re yours, and while absence of evidence doesn’t indicate evidence of absence it does mean that no-one can gainsay what you do with your Roman army either 🙂

     

    I’ve got a pair of HotT Greek myth armies on the painting shelf that owes a debt to Jason and the Argonauts. Especially the skeleton warriors.

     

    "I go online sometimes, but everyone's spelling is really bad. It's... depressing."

    #142492
    Geof DowntonGeof Downton
    Participant

    …where did you get the Queen of Sheba set of figures?

    All from Khurasan 15mm, Gina Lollobrigida from the fantasy range, and the bearers are supposed to be carrying an Inca high commander.

    One who puts on his armour should not boast like one who takes it off.
    Ahab, King of Israel; 1 Kings 20:11

    #142495
    Alan Hamilton
    Participant

    Thanks Geoff. Pity they are not 25/28mm to fit with my collection.

    #142496
    willbwillb
    Participant

    Outpost Wargame services has the litter and bearers in their Inca range.  If you want an unarmed female passenger Dark Sword Miniatures has Cersei Lannister on a couch and Arriane Martell.  They also have some armed females.  Use their miniature finder page to sort by type, etc.

    #142497
    Mike HeaddenMike Headden
    Participant

    Alan, I think leather lorica segmentata has more to do with production budgets and the needs of the wardrobe department than anything historical.

    Leather fastenings were used with metal armour so are not evidence of leather versions.

    But, as you have already pointed out, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence and as others have said, they are your figures so don’t let the “rivet counters” put you off! 🙂

    Also, Geoff, I love your Queen of Sheba. Palanquins were hardly an America only invention!

    Though I do think the Queen of Sheba should a) be wearing a little more, b) be in a throne and c) be considerably less Caucasian since Sheba is variously described as either a Southern Arabian kingdom or an Ethiopian one. {/pedant} 🙂

     

    Growing old is mandatory, growing up is entirely optional!

    #142498
    Geof DowntonGeof Downton
    Participant

    Pity they are not 25/28mm to fit with my collection.

    ‘Tis frustrating, although I’m more likely to have the opposite problem.

    One who puts on his armour should not boast like one who takes it off.
    Ahab, King of Israel; 1 Kings 20:11

    #142501
    Mr. Average
    Participant

    My understanding is that eastern legions were more likely to use lamellar or chain mail armor and the west used segmentata armor and only in metal that I’m aware of. The reason you see it on the screen in leather is that it’s easier for prop departments to make in large masses for armies of extras – and the extras find it more comfortable to wear. Segmentata has to be fitted to the wearer to some extent – not as much as plate, but still. And custom fitting a hundred suits of metal armor to a legion for a shot that will last a few seconds is not cost effective.

    #142503
    Alan Hamilton
    Participant

    <p style=”text-align: center;”>

    Segmentata has to be fitted to the wearer to some extent – not as much as plate, but still. And custom fitting a hundred suits of metal armor to a legion for a shot that will last a few second

    </p>
    Which is, of course, an argument for a cash strapped Empire, province substituting cheaper leather armour to garrison or other troops in peace keeping and Pax Romana enforcement.

    I think I will do a few in leather lorica segmentata for just these roles.

    #142505
    Geof DowntonGeof Downton
    Participant

    Palanquins were hardly an America only invention!

    True, but these are Incas…

     

    Though I do think the Queen of Sheba should a) be wearing a little more, b) be in a throne and c) be considerably less Caucasian since Sheba is variously described as either a Southern Arabian kingdom or an Ethiopian one. {/pedant} 🙂

    Exactly my point – historically and Biblically inaccurate, 100% Hollywood, Gina Lollobrigida is Italian!

    One who puts on his armour should not boast like one who takes it off.
    Ahab, King of Israel; 1 Kings 20:11

    #142507
    PatricePatrice
    Participant

    I don’t believe very much in this. Leather armour did appear many times in history, often as boiled leather (put a bit of leather in boiling water for a few seconds, it shrinks and hardens considerably, you can mould its shape before it dries) but there is no reason to make it segmentata, it would more probably be one single piece torso-shaped or shoulder-shaped, there would be not need to add rivets for articulation…

    http://www.argad-bzh.fr/argad/en.html
    https://www.anargader.net/

    #142508
    Mr. Average
    Participant

    <p style=”text-align: left;”>

    I don’t believ very much in this. Leather armour did appear many times in history, often as boiled leather (put a bit of leather in boiled water for a few seconds, it shrinks and hardens considerably, you can mould its shape before it dries) but there is no reason to make it segmentata, it would more probably be one single piece torso-shaped or shoulder-shaped, there would be not need to add rivets for articulation…

    </p>
    I agree – If you’re going to go for leather armor, Segmentata is not a very efficient defense. Too many gaps to protect if the material is flexible – a few boiled, molded and reinforced leather plates do much better than a lot of flexible ones. The main point of segmentata is to allow a wide range of motion with a metal armor that still deflects blows and cuts. A softer material will not do that – it’ll have all the flexibility but none of the rigidity.

    I should correct myself though and say that segmentata has “not yet to my knowledge been compellingly shown to have been made of anything but metal.” I don’t discount the possibility that future finds could determine otherwise.

    And for gaming, do what you want! The minis are your property and above all what matters is that you’re happy with your army.

    #142520
    Thaddeus BlanchetteThaddeus Blanchette
    Participant

    Pretty sure that an empire the size of the Roman with the frequent problems the Romans had with cash flow would use whatever was at hand, in a pinch.

    I also don’t see legionaries using segmentata or any other heavy armor unless they really had to. First, because it would probably be exhausting and uncomfortable, especially in really hot or really cold weather. Second, because (particularly with segmentata) they’d want to save it from wear and tear. But third and most importantly, leather armor was cheap, readily available, and useful for almost everything the legionaries would meet off of a field of pitched battle — and even there it would be pretty useful.

    Any reasonably skilled shoemaker could probably make segmentada out of leather. IIRC, only specialized Roman factories could make metal segmentada. And for most of a Roman soldier’s duties, most of the time, LOOKING like a recognizably Roman soldier was probably more important than having whatever top-of-the-line kit the most favored legions got.

    We also only have to think back on how quickly cavalry dumped metal armor for buff coats once firearms became available. If your only likely adversaries were indifferently armed rebels or barbarian raiders, you’d probably go with leather armor. And that stuff wouldn’t leave many archeological remains.

    So I’d say paint the leather armor if you want. It’s at least as “historical” as half the stuff we think we know about the Romans.

     

    We get slapped around, but we have a good time!

    #142521
    Thaddeus BlanchetteThaddeus Blanchette
    Participant

    Just put yourself in the sandals of some second century tribune: if you had the cash, wouldn’t you give your men a walking-around set of leather armor for daily use? Sure. And could it be done? Easily.

    So someone, somewhere in the Roman world, probably did it.

    We get slapped around, but we have a good time!

    #142526
    Sane MaxSane Max
    Participant

    Thad, I don’t think people are saying Leather Armour wasn’t used – the issue is that Leather is a poor material to make Banded Armour out of. The gaps between the ‘plates’ would allow a sword or spear point in, and the non-rigid leather would buckle away allowing one to get stabbed – and it would be a lot easier to make a One Piece Body armour out of Leather instead, no Cobbler required.

    But I agree it would look quite cool. There are (or used to be) re-enactment Groups in Germany that do ‘Hollywood Romans’ rather than proper ones, does anyone make Hollywood Roman Miniatures though?

    #142541
    Alan Hamilton
    Participant

    What an interesting discussion! Thanks for all the input.

    I  started out thinking that the leather kit was probably a Hollywood/TV invention. My own military experience is that war fighting made up a tiny part of my career but training for it made up a huge part. Even when deployed most of my time was on patrol, carrying out inspections, peace keeping, law enforcement, public duties, assisting the local authorities etc. So I would expect the legions to be doing pretty much the same.

    So maybe  just maybe, leather lorica segmentata or something similar existed for some duties but was held in a pool and not general issue.

    Anyway, I am going to have some leather clad troops to serve as town guards, the Watch and to fulfil some second line tasks like escorts, supply officials and the like where look is more important than protection.

    Thanks again.

    #142542
    Sane MaxSane Max
    Participant

    If you have time to go down the OTHER rabbit hole on this, there’s a fairly intense online controversy about whether or not Later Romans used Leather/Linen Muscle Cuirasses, rather than the more usually understood Bronze. I can’t remember where it is,. but there are some pretty convincing arguments that they did – including an image depicting a very ‘floppy’ muscle cuirass leaning against a trophy-pile. what use a Cuirass that floppy would be is another question entirely.

    #142547
    Thaddeus BlanchetteThaddeus Blanchette
    Participant

    Thad, I don’t think people are saying Leather Armour wasn’t used – the issue is that Leather is a poor material to make Banded Armour out of. The gaps between the ‘plates’ would allow a sword or spear point in, and the non-rigid leather would buckle away allowing one to get stabbed – and it would be a lot easier to make a One Piece Body armour out of Leather instead, no Cobbler required. But I agree it would look quite cool. There are (or used to be) re-enactment Groups in Germany that do ‘Hollywood Romans’ rather than proper ones, does anyone make Hollywood Roman Miniatures though?

    Ahn! Yes. Well, I agree with you there but I CAN think of one reason why it might possibly be used: if people associate the lorica segementada with legionaries and you want to keep that symbolic association firmly in their mind as you police, say, an unruly Jewish client state, then you might very well get something like Hollywood’s leather segementada. Certainly not for the pitched battle, however, unless you were truly desperate.

    More show that practical, I admit, but since when haven’t peacetime militaries been all about that? I can easily see some Tribune diddling the books to give his men that sort of walking around uniform. Particularly as it still looks very military and cool as fuck. And if an emergency comes and it turns out that that same Tribune was ALSO diddling the books on equipment upkeep and replacement (because who would’ve ever imagined that the semi-barbarian scum out here would try anything?), well, ya dance with who brung ya.

     

    We get slapped around, but we have a good time!

    #142548
    Thaddeus BlanchetteThaddeus Blanchette
    Participant

    Regarding floppy armor, I’m not sure if this is pertinent, but the Spanish and Portuguese quickly ditched their plate when they got to the Americas and adopted native cotton quilted armor instead. It absorbed pretty much anything that was likely to be tossed at it and was also much lighter and cooler.

    So if you’re an officer who doesn’t expect to be doing much hand-to-hand but who will need to be running around the battlefield, coordinating as best you can, a “floppy” style of armor could make sense. It’d be enough to keep off javelins and the occasional missile (or at least greatly reduce their force) and you probably wouldn’t need more than that. Plus, you could paint it however you liked and look oh-so-martial for the boys and ladies while off the battlefield.

    And, again, it’d be showy, cheap, and appropriately military looking for off battlefield use for the rank and file.

    We get slapped around, but we have a good time!

    #142554
    Mike HeaddenMike Headden
    Participant

    In an effort to drag this thread back to the historically likely, rather than the historically possible. 🙂

    Although there are undoubtedly many gaps in our knowledge of the Roman army we still know far more about it than most Ancient armies.

    Leather segmentata makes no real sense, a simple leather jerkin provides better protection, is simpler and quicker to make and is therefore going to be cheaper.

    The Roman Empire, like the Republic before it, doesn’t seem to have had problems equipping their troops. The Empire was studded with manufactories pouring out arms and armour to relatively standard patterns.

    Eastern legions might have worn scale or chain but, if so, that is likely to be down to local traditions of armour manufacture. Why interfere with armourers already churning out perfectly serviceable armour. However, I think it likely that competent armourers could knock up anything you wanted and that Eastern legionaries were as likely as Western ones to wear segmentata.

    Chain is being produced for auxilia anyway. You need armour for half a dozen new recruits? Or half a legion, after a particularly bloody battle? Plenty of chain over there Tribune! We’ll get you the segmentata once it comes in (Yeah! Right! 🙂 )

    So, it’s possible that legionaries all over the Empire wore whatever the local depot had at the time and the idea of identically clad legions is just one more myth.

    On the idea of skimming a bit off the top by using leather armour … why bother when you can just draw rations for Legionary Nemo and his four brothers and sell them. You just have to hope he doesn’t get promoted like Lieutenant Kijé 🙂

    Floppy armour? Don’t buy it. That’s both advice and my opinion on it’s likelihood! I’m in the “artistic licence not evidence” camp …. but heck, what do I know? Despite my children’s assertions I am not old enough to have stood on the shore and waved goodbye to the last legions leaving these shores!!!

    All that said, when it comes to toy soldiers, I’ll take “the rule of cool” over rivet-counting any day. I just like people to be aware that that’s what they are doing. Not that I’m suggesting that any of the august personages here gathered would ever be unaware 🙂

    Growing old is mandatory, growing up is entirely optional!

    #142555
    Not Connard SageNot Connard Sage
    Participant

    Some random musings

     

    A thousand years after the end of the Roman Empire, the conquistadores were facing enemies without iron weapons, and whose most powerful missile weapons were slings.

    Faced with an angry Dacian with a falx or a pissed off Sarmatian horse archer with a composite bow, I’d take metal armor.

    As for cuirass of metal or leather. Corium is the Latin word for leather, coriaceus is the Latin word for cuirass. Something to think about when reading secondary sources.

    Cuir bouilli is tough, and was used well into modern times – pickelhauben were still made of cuir boulli at the start of the Great War.

    …and what Mike Headen said.

     

    "I go online sometimes, but everyone's spelling is really bad. It's... depressing."

    #142558
    Sane MaxSane Max
    Participant

    can I just add, if my Tribunus Millitum suggested i might like to ‘take a walk around Judea in cool looking Leather armour to save me the trouble of wearing metal plate’, I would give him a funny look and then go get my Metal armour on. and Greaves. and a metal codpiece.

    #142565
    Mr. Average
    Participant

    There’s also little evidence that I’m aware of that Roman soldiers had day-to-day armor that they wore instead of metal. When not on duty they wore tunics like everyone else. Although we do have letters from the Roman Period in Britain of soldiers asking for daily wear items like socks and underwear, and complaining about the Picts being uncivilized.

    #142567
    Thaddeus BlanchetteThaddeus Blanchette
    Participant

    Some random musings A thousand years after the end of the Roman Empire, the conquistadores were facing enemies without iron weapons, and whose most powerful missile weapons were slings. Faced with an angry Dacian with a falx or a pissed off Sarmatian horse archer with a composite bow, I’d take metal armor. As for cuirass of metal or leather. Corium is the Latin word for leather, coriaceus is the Latin word for cuirass. Something to think about when reading secondary sources. Cuir bouilli is tough, and was used well into modern times – pickelhauben were still made of cuir boulli at the start of the Great War. …and what Mike Headen said.

    There were plenty of powerful bows in the Americas, especially South America where they were made out of tropical hardwoods. There are reports of Portuguese bandeirantes walking around with so many arrows in them, they looked like hedgehogs.

    The main weapon in the Americas — aside from spears — seems to have been the club, often studded with sharp chips. Leather or cotton armor would stop its cutting effect, but — like metal armor — wouldn’t stop its concussion effects.

    I agree that no one sensible would try to face the Dacians or Sarmatians in leather armor. But Picts, Germans, desert raiders, zealots, border-hopping cattle rustlers…? Those seem to be the main guys Imperial Romans would be facing, most of the time. For those guys, it seems to me that leather would work fine.

    The Roman Empire, like the Republic before it, doesn’t seem to have had problems equipping their troops. The Empire was studded with manufactories pouring out arms and armour to relatively standard patterns.

    Hmmm. I have been listening to the History of Rome podcast (highly recommended, btw), and Mike Duncan seems to think that there were problems in the factories from time to time.

    On the idea of skimming a bit off the top by using leather armour … why bother when you can just draw rations for Legionary Nemo and his four brothers and sell them.

    Why not do both? Corruption was a Roman art form, a tradition we have proudly maintained in the lusospeaking world. 😀

    Can I just add, if my Tribunus Millitum suggested i might like to ‘take a walk around Judea in cool looking Leather armour to save me the trouble of wearing metal plate’, I would give him a funny look and then go get my Metal armour on. and Greaves. and a metal codpiece.

    Even if it was just to patrol the market in Jerusalem in one of the long periods of peace in that city? Every day? Color me skeptical. Troops seem to get very lax in periods of inactivity and if your Tribunus was diddling the accounts, you might not even have a choice, anyways, as the metal armor would be in the armory, stored for “real emergencies”.

    Thinking of the police here in Rio, a violent city by anyone’s measure. There are tens of thousands of them and they lose hundreds to killings every year. They’ve been recently pumped up with millions in equipment and supplies due to the Cup and Olympics (2014 and 2016). They still often don’t have gas for their cars or properly fitting ballistic vests, and they ride around in stock sedan-style cars with assault rifles poking out the windows.

    When a gun battle erupts, as they frequently do, you can still see them using these:


    That’s a hundred year old Madsen light machinegun, rechambered for NATO standard. The modern version of taking on your rebels in the hills with less than adequate equipment.

    We get slapped around, but we have a good time!

    #142568
    Thaddeus BlanchetteThaddeus Blanchette
    Participant

    Again, I cheerfully admit all this is speculative. There is no archeology for any of it.

    But if you NEED a logical-sounding excuse to clothe Romans in leather segementada, this sounds reasonable to me.

    Hell, I play fantasy Romans, anyhow. Judging from the amounts of Praetorians I see on other gamers’ tables, so do most people. 😀

    We get slapped around, but we have a good time!

    #142569
    Not Connard SageNot Connard Sage
    Participant

    Some random musings A thousand years after the end of the Roman Empire, the conquistadores were facing enemies without iron weapons, and whose most powerful missile weapons were slings. Faced with an angry Dacian with a falx or a pissed off Sarmatian horse archer with a composite bow, I’d take metal armor. As for cuirass of metal or leather. Corium is the Latin word for leather, coriaceus is the Latin word for cuirass. Something to think about when reading secondary sources. Cuir bouilli is tough, and was used well into modern times – pickelhauben were still made of cuir boulli at the start of the Great War. …and what Mike Headen said.

    There were plenty of powerful bows in the Americas, especially South America where they were made out of tropical hardwoods. There are reports of Portuguese bandeirantes walking around with so many arrows in them, they looked like hedgehogs. .

    That rather makes my point. If the Portuguese were walking (presumably in cotton armour) about ‘looking like hedgehogs’, it implies that the energy imparted by the bow to the arrow wasn’t that great.

    "I go online sometimes, but everyone's spelling is really bad. It's... depressing."

    #142572
    Thaddeus BlanchetteThaddeus Blanchette
    Participant

    Well, that’s the crux of the problem, isn’t it? Because we know the energy imparted by these bows is fairly large.

    We get slapped around, but we have a good time!

    #142574
    Thaddeus BlanchetteThaddeus Blanchette
    Participant

    Here’s a longbow versus 32 layers of linen:

    Here’s a crossbow against various flexible armor types:

    Seems to me that even with powerful medieval bows and hardened iron heads, cloth armor could be some sort of defense. I certainly wouldn’t want to use it against a crossbow with a fleshcutter head, but….

    We get slapped around, but we have a good time!

    #142575
    Thaddeus BlanchetteThaddeus Blanchette
    Participant

    English warbows against boiled leather:

    Looks like with two sheets of boiled leather, you’d be an alive hedgehog, very sore, with plenty of broken ribs and maybe some internal bleeding.

    We get slapped around, but we have a good time!

    #142576
    Mr. Average
    Participant

    Getting into the Middle Ages here – this has gotten a bit afield of the OP hasn’t it? The Romans certainly COULD have done all this, but there’s little evidence they actually DID do it. I mean it was also well within their capability to have developed saltpeter weapons and rudimentary arquebuses, they just never did.

    But again the bottom line is, if it makes you happy to paint your miniatures that way, go ahead! They’re your minis and that’s the beauty of it.

    #142580
    Thaddeus BlanchetteThaddeus Blanchette
    Participant

    Agreed, Mat! It’s all fantasy, anyway.

    We get slapped around, but we have a good time!

    #142591
    Tony STony S
    Participant

    I’d have to agree with Mr Average.  For myself, I need at least some sort of evidence usually before painting or raising something odd, especially Romans as there is a tremendous amount of primary sources, pictorial or archaeological evidence on that empire, compared to just about every other empire or kingdom.

    That said, this book seems quite apropos to the OP –

    https://www.naval-military-press.com/product/swords-and-cinemahollywood-vs-the-reality-of-ancient-warfare/

    (BTW – there are a lot of books at that store on sale right now.   The book above is 84% off RRP).

    #142592
    Thaddeus BlanchetteThaddeus Blanchette
    Participant

    Nice book! Thanks for the tip!

    We get slapped around, but we have a good time!

    #142600
    Alan Hamilton
    Participant

    <p style=”text-align: left;”>Summing up then.</p>
    1. Leather lorica segmentata (LLS) is unlikely though some of the other leather armour in the first picture in my OP is possibly better but equally unlikely.

    2. LLS is probably a  modern wardrobe invention.

    3. Modern re-enactors using modern replica weapons against modern replica armour confuse the issue.

    4. We do not actually know as much as we think we do. Just look at the discussions, the plethora of different books, papers and opinions in academic websites, libraries and fora.

    5.  The surplus 28mm legionaries are my toys and I can issue them with whatever armour I like as our games are all fantasy anyway.

    6. This is an excellent place to discuss such issues.

    Thanks a lot.

    #142607
    Guy FarrishGuy Farrish
    Participant

    So to offer a slightly different take on the executive conclusion:

    1 Up to a point minister – except a boiled leather jerkin (not in plates) is more likely than LLS for practical and cost reasons.

    2 Almost certainly true. (I know there is a thirst for metrics –  say >90%)

    3 Undoubtedly. Weapon vs Armour tests can be helpful. Like all algorithms (always helpful to use a buzzword) it depends on the design and inputs.

    4 We know exactly what we think we know. Interpretations vary. (Do NOT read Foucault et al until you have mastered this brief).

    5 Part A is an exemplary summation of the position. Part B – see caveat re Foucault et al in#4 above. History is not fantasy and gaming it should aspire towards recreating the laws of physics pertaining if not the entire gamut of violent human interaction involved.

    6. Axiomatic minister.

    Have fun in the House.

    #142612
    Not Connard SageNot Connard Sage
    Participant

    So to offer a slightly different take on the executive conclusion:

     

    1 Up to a point minister – except a boiled leather jerkin (not in plates) is more likely than LLS for practical and cost reasons.

    2 Almost certainly true. (I know there is a thirst for metrics – say >90%)

    3 Undoubtedly. Weapon vs Armour tests can be helpful. Like all algorithms (always helpful to use a buzzword) it depends on the design and inputs.

    4 We know exactly what we think we know. Interpretations vary. (Do NOT read Foucault et al until you have mastered this brief).

    5 Part A is an exemplary summation of the position. Part B – see caveat re Foucault et al in#4 above. History is not fantasy and gaming it should aspire towards recreating the laws of physics pertaining if not the entire gamut of violent human interaction involved. 6. Axiomatic minister. Have fun in the House.

    1 However,  cuir boulli (which is what we should be talking about) lamellar armour offers more protection that a plain leather jerkin while retaining its flexibility. As I mentioned above boiled leather is rather hard and was used until recently for such things as firemen’s helmets (stop it!).

    3 I always view re-enactors with a jaundiced eye. Just as we play at war so do they, and like us they have no skin in the game. Things in real life are done for practical reasons, not because they look good or provide an afternoon’s entertainment.

    4 And some interpretations are wild guesses or flights of fancy.

    I offer no argument to your other points 🙂

     

    Codicil to 3: As a really obvious example –  hand to hand combat. I have no idea (well a little, based on practising kendo. I can expand on this if anyone’s bothered) what real hand to hand combat was like, but I’m willing to bet that the opponents didn’t obligingly bash each others shields, in splendid isolation from the rest of the fray, for a couple of minutes until one of them obligingly dropped his guard and allowed his adversary to deliver a killing blow. Followed by comedy falling down with legs in the air and a few seconds of rolling around. Although I do appreciate that the screams of the dying might be a little off-putting to modern crowds that have gathered to watch the spectacle.

     

     

    "I go online sometimes, but everyone's spelling is really bad. It's... depressing."

    #142613
    Guy FarrishGuy Farrish
    Participant

    Where did NCS go?

    Oh. I somehow appeared to have ignored him. No idea how.

    That’s better (probably)

     

    What I was going to say before interrupting myself:

     

    1. Yes. (though takeaway point is: where is the evidence for LLS?).

    3. I don’t see an argument. We agree.

    4. My point precisely.

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