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  • #97895
    Angel Barracks
    Moderator

    I backed a KS for some PDF rules, funded got my rules quick sharp.
    Within 7 days the rules are on Wargame Vault for less than I paid to back them.

    Grumble.

    #97897
    Thomaston
    Participant

    That sucks. Did you get anything else from the kickstarter?

    Seen a few, questionable things on kickstarter, mostly in the computer gaming world but didn’t think it’ll seep to wargaming.

    Tired is enough.
    R-rated narcissism

    #97898
    Guy Farrish
    Participant

    I have to say I’ve never understood the attraction of Crowdfunding/Kickstarters as currently constituted in the wargaming world.

    I can understand if someone/small company needs investment for a product – but surely the point from the investors point of view is to get some reward?

    I mean beyond the product – which as you have found out is often made available as normal and for lower unit cost once the set up has been done (don’t see the the financial outlay requiring a ks for a pdf either myself). Surely the person who funds the initial cost is entitled to more than the average punter?

    And I don’t mean the warm glow of having funded ‘the hobby’ (whatever that is).

    You seem to have been particularly hard done by, but to be honest the average punter in a wargaming KS seems to be a mug. A ‘unique’ figure – which due to popular demand seems to get produced for sale indefinitely  – isn’t my idea of a proper return for keeping someone’s business going.

    Mr Grumpy.

    #97899
    Angel Barracks
    Moderator

    Nope, not sure if it was intentional.
    I think on Wargame Vault the PDF was done as a deal, could be the creator was not aware this would happen?
    They did promote it though once they knew…

    #97900
    Rhoderic
    Participant

    You seem to have been particularly hard done by, but to be honest the average punter in a wargaming KS seems to be a mug.

    Mind who you call a mug. I’m an average punter in wargaming Kickstarters.

     

    #97902
    Darkest Star Games
    Participant

    I have a love hate relationship with Kickstarter, both as a backer and user.  At first I thought KS was great.  I’ve had a couple of bummer experiences, but nothing too bad (other than Robotech).  But I hate that nowadays a lot of companies use KS as a business model.  I honestly think that CMOn and the like should be banned, as they always have their stuff all done and ready to ship as soon as the campaign ends, which is not how it should be.  TO me it’s an abuse of the system.

    Anyhoo, don’t want to rant.  But dang Mike, that sucks.  I get that when you back a KS you are in effect making a gamble/investment, but you should never pay more in a KS than you would retail, IMO.

    WGV and RPGNow (same company) do not put products on special without publisher approval, btw.

    "I saw this in a cartoon once, but I'm pretty sure I can do it..."

    #97903
    Guy Farrish
    Participant

    mug

    But such a nice one!

    #97904
    Mike
    Keymaster

    WGV and RPGNow (same company) do not put products on special without publisher approval, btw.

    I could be very wrong, I often am.
    But I think when I recently set up my seller account it automatically added your products to sales and promotions, and you have to deselect in order not to agree?
    So unless you happen to spot that setting you would not be aware it could happen?

    #97905
    Guy Farrish
    Participant

    Mind who you call a mug. I’m an average punter in wargaming Kickstarters.

    mug

    But such a nice one!

    #97906
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    I avoid kickstarters and other crowdfunding like the plague. They feed on the expectations and risks of others rather use a proper business model.

    If the product is good enough it will eventually get to market without me subbing the maker.

     

    …and what the other Mr Grumpy said. Being a dyed in the wool capitalist, if I’m investing in your company I want a better return than a bunch of figures. The Dragons in the Den didn’t get where they are today by supporting such foolishness 🙂

    "I go online sometimes, but everyone's spelling is really bad. It's... depressing."

    #97907
    Guy Farrish
    Participant

    Not sure what happened with all the extra mug pics – was supposed to be a peace offering to Rhoderic – but I am obviously exactly the type of person Kickstarters are looking for!

    Sorry!

    PS Agree with NCS – pithier than my approach.

    #97909
    Blackhat
    Participant

    I find the current use of KS as a shop extremely irritating – to the extent that I have complained to KS about particular small company who has done repeated KS campaigns and then listed one at Xmas with 100 lots that you could “buy” through KS and which were ready to ship immediately.  When I called him out on it he changed the campaign to say that it was helping to fund “master moulds” .

    I think it is a shame that a platform that is supposed to be for testing out if weird and wacky ideas are viable is diluted into another marketplace for large companies to get preorders…

    Mike

     

    Black Hat Miniatures -
    http://www.www.blackhat.co.uk/

    #97911
    Mike
    Keymaster

    Moaning about KS is one thing, insulting people who use it is quite another…

    #97914
    Rhoderic
    Participant

    Moaning about KS is one thing, insulting people who use it is quite another…

    It’s okay, I get the dissatisfaction with some of the effects that crowdfunding is having on the hobby scene, and I know Guy wouldn’t actually mean to disparage anyone here, as confirmed by his reply.

    Certainly Kickstarter has its problems, some of which are caused by people who are knowingly abusing the system. I’d have been embittered had I, for instance, participated in that infamously disastrous Robotech KS (not that it in particular was a case of intentional abuse, which it wasn’t).

    Still, it’s just a hobby, and that means I’m allowed to apply standards more lax than I would otherwise in life. I’d never trust in KS as a model for acquiring anything important.

    On the whole, I have fun. The Rebel Minis Kobolds KS just funded today.

    #97915
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    Moaning about KS is one thing, insulting people who use it is quite another…

     

    Yeah well, there’s insulting people and there’s insulting people.

    Sergeants of The Knights of St Lazarus

     

    "I go online sometimes, but everyone's spelling is really bad. It's... depressing."

    #97920
    Private Snafu
    Participant

    Did you send a message to the Kickstarter asking for an explanation?

    ___________________
    http://moveshootassault.blogspot.com
    https://sites.google.com/site/miniaturemachinations

    #97922
    Angel Barracks
    Moderator

    Nah, it was so little money I do not feel out of pocket as such, more the principle.
    I think having this moan has helped me get over what little annoyance/grumble I had..

    #97937
    greg954
    Participant

    I’m with Rhoderic on this, as long as you don’t use your life savings. I’ve never done  a KS, but probably would for the right minis. I look at this as my hobby, nothing serious.

    However, you should get something from it. Even if it is a free mug, like this one…….

     

    • This reply was modified 2 years, 10 months ago by greg954.
    #97960
    Phil Dutré
    Participant

    I have done a few wargaming-related kickstarters, all product were always delivered, although in one case it took more than 3 years 😉

    But you can get screwed in RL as well. I have bought games off-the-shelf in a brick-and-mortar store that turned out to be a lower-than-expected quality …

    As with all things you buy online – think about it first and don;t get carried away by the hype that surrounds some kickstarters.

    • This reply was modified 2 years, 10 months ago by Phil Dutré.

    Tiny Tin Men Blog: http://snv-ttm.blogspot.com/
    Wargaming Mechanics Blog: http://wargaming-mechanics.blogspot.com/

    #97967
    Darkest Star Games
    Participant

    I think it is a shame that a platform that is supposed to be for testing out if weird and wacky ideas are viable is diluted into another marketplace for large companies to get preorders…

    ^This right here.

    I used a KS to test to see if 15mm was viable.  I had made 3d models and had 1 printed form out of pocket.  The funding went towards getting the second set printed, molds (both metal and resin) and casting.  I had everything delivered within a month of the campaign closing, and all was well.  After the models went on sale on the site (without the discount the backers received) there was enough orders to release the next pair of vehicles, and I tried to keep it rolling like that (despite having to put in my own funds more often than I’d like).  That 1 KS allowed me get started and I haven’t had another since.  It did it’s job in helping me bootstrap this little biz.

    The Robotech KS was a tough pill to swallow, so was the Mekton Zero one.  A friend lost his dough on 6 different KS all related to Traveller put on by the same dude under different names.  So glad I didn’t back those like I was tempted to do!

    "I saw this in a cartoon once, but I'm pretty sure I can do it..."

    #97993
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    The Robotech KS was a tough pill to swallow, so was the Mekton Zero one. A friend lost his dough on 6 different KS all related to Traveller put on by the same dude under different names. So glad I didn’t back those like I was tempted to do!

    I rest my case. 🙂

    If anyone needs a business startup loan they should go and talk to their bank. Not expect strangers to fund them.

     

    "I go online sometimes, but everyone's spelling is really bad. It's... depressing."

    #98000
    greg954
    Participant

    Just amended my usual typing errors. I should stop doing things on my phone. Not that I have fat fingers.

    I think the moral of the story is never put in what you can’t  afford to lose. I would probably only back KS from people I know and are familar with. Like, DSG or Mike. I wouldn’t back some random KS I saw on the net just because I liked the product.

    Your experience wasn’t too bad Mike, yeah a bit crap TBH. But that Robotech KS mentioned above. Those are the ones to be careful of and never right.

    #98002
    Rhoderic
    Participant

    To those who might be interested and not in the know already, here’s a good article about the Robotech fiasco: LINK

    #98024
    Darkest Star Games
    Participant

    I still ended up losing $300 (well, $150 because I split it with a friend) because they were overwhelmed and inundated with the “last gasp” stuff.  They lost my list and when I was finally able to get ahold of someone again it was well past the deadline.  Oh well.

    Didn’t the Martian Front game do something similar?

    Now, all these problems aside, there are companies that have done great with their KS.  Reaper’s Bones KS have been phenomenal bargains.  I on;y participated in 1 of them, but I ended up with more minis than I could ever use.  IMO they did it right.  They used the KS to not just put out an inexpensive product that is good, but to purchase equipment to enable them to continue to do so.  I mean, the price difference between a Bones mini and the same metal mini is just bonkers!  And they look just as good.

    "I saw this in a cartoon once, but I'm pretty sure I can do it..."

    #98058
    Thuseld
    Participant

    I don’t use kickstarter anymore because of the horror stories in the board gaming world. My first ever kick starter was a Flop.  The guy used the money on something else, but the rest of the team ended up printing the cards and getting them out in spite of that.

    Then I backed two Reaper Bones projects which were successful. I have hundreds of awesome miniatures I will never paint thanks to that.

    I also backed someone to get a bigger laser cutter for modular Berlin ruins. Success.

    Then I backed a computer game a few quid and had constant updates for a few years. I haven’t heard anything in ages and dunno what happened to it.

    So my experience is pretty fine, but I can’t be bothered anymore. Too many horror stories. Too much effort to get excited for something that will never happen.

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