Home Forums Renaissance MOHÀCS battle order ?

Viewing 29 posts - 1 through 29 (of 29 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #78815
    Paskal
    Spectator

    Hello everyone,

    Who knows and could publish on this forum a battle order as complete as possible for each of the belligerents delivering the battle of MOHÀCS the August 29, 1526 ?

    Thank you.

    #78831
    Whirlwind
    Participant

    Paskal,

    This is almost certainly wrong, so I only offer this out of completeness, but there was a scenario for Mohacs back in Miniature Wargames 002 and it had:

    Hungarians:

    Knights 1000

    Lesser Nobles and Retainers 3000

    Hussars 8000

    Landsknechts 6000

    Levy Foot 7000

    Light Bombards 80

    Turks:

    Spahis of the Porte 7000

    Asian Feudal Spahis 10000

    European Feudal Spahis 15000

    Akinjis 20000

    Janissaries 2000

    Levies 7000

    Guns 120 (half heavy and half light)

     

    All the best

    https://hereticalgaming.blogspot.co.uk/

    #78834
    Paskal
    Spectator

    Congratulations Whirlwind, it’s a beginning, maybe in a few days, with the other versions, we could make a synthesis …

    #78839
    Chris Pringle
    Participant

    Hi Paskal,

    Take a look at this map from Banlaky:

    https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moh%C3%A1csi_csata#/media/File:B%C3%A1nlaky_a_moh%C3%A1csi_csata.jpg

    And the relevant chapters of his huge work on Hungarian military history. The last paragraph of this chapter in particular has a lot of useful numbers:

    http://mek.oszk.hu/09400/09477/html/0012/932.html

    His account of the battle is here:

    http://mek.oszk.hu/09400/09477/html/0012/935.html

     

    Hope this helps.

    Chris

    Bloody Big BATTLES!

    https://uk.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/BBB_wargames/info

    http://bloodybigbattles.blogspot.co.uk/

     

     

    #78848
    Paskal
    Spectator

    Thank you Chris, I love to read Hungarian …

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 1 month ago by Paskal.
    • This reply was modified 4 years, 1 month ago by Paskal.
    • This reply was modified 4 years, 1 month ago by Paskal.
    #79226
    Guy Farrish
    Participant

    Thanks for that Chris – great find.

    #79239
    Paskal
    Spectator

    In fact, it would be necessary to find something specialized on the internal compositions of armies …

    #79246
    Guy Farrish
    Participant

    Sorry Paskal, I wasn’t commenting on whether Banlaky’s work answered your question, I was thanking Chris for posting a link to what I found a fascinating read.

    As for what you want I regret I have no idea of whether such a detailed breakdown of forces exists, if so where you would find it, or even if it ever existed in the first place.

    #79247
    Paskal
    Spectator

    Guy,

    What has been posted so far is always good to take but why a breakdown of forces of not exists, for a battle so important and so late that it must exist.

    Paskal

    #79260
    Guy Farrish
    Participant

    This is intersting-

    http://www.hungarianhistory.com/lib/warso/
    which won’t answer your questions I am afraid – but will show that, in the 1980s at least, there was considerable doubt about the accuracy of some traditional sources (Istvan Brodarics) for the totals of combatants, never mind a breakdown. It also mentions why we may never get accuracy – the destruction of many Hungarian records by – the Ottoman invasion!

    Worth a read for those of us who have not a great background in the details of the Mohacs campaign.

     

    #79264
    Paskal
    Spectator

    Yes Guy and especially a big thank for you ,Chris Pringle and Whirlwind for this reading fom those of us like me who do not have a great experience in the details of the Mohacs battle.

    Let’s continue to search, we’ll get there …

    #80200
    Paskal
    Spectator

    For now the best for this battle is my old book by Sir Charles Oman:
    “A History of the Art of War in the Sixteenth Century (1937)”

    #80231
    Guy Farrish
    Participant

    Well, he uses mostly Brodarics, with a nod at a couple of others and an admission he hadn’t really used any Turkish sources.

    So no better than Perjes above, who has some Turkish input and at least has a bibliography and references his work , a major failing of Oman.

     

    #80241
    Paskal
    Spectator

    No better than Perjes above, but at least as well and very convenient to consult..

    #80305
    Paskal
    Spectator

    There are some who will be happy when they learn that Oman is supposedly close to the useless (only for Mohàcs?) Since -so-saying – relied on very few sources that were later distorted by passing through the filter of his “interpretation” and filling his gaps with conjectures and “enlightened assumptions.” Finally for those who do not appreciate Oman’s account of Mohàcs, here is some reading:  https://www.academia.edu/Documents/in/Battle_of_Mohacs

    #80636
    Guy Farrish
    Participant

    Credit Daniel Staberg for the links.

    #80642
    Paskal
    Spectator

    Yes and his 5 followers

    #80656
    Chris Pringle
    Participant

    Thank you Chris, I love to read Hungarian …

    As my Hungarian military historian friend likes to say, Hungary’s best defence is not its army but its language …

    But anyone who really wants to get into detail about Hungary’s military history probably needs to learn some Hungarian.

    Chris

    Bloody Big BATTLES!

    https://uk.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/BBB_wargames/info

    http://bloodybigbattles.blogspot.co.uk/

    #80670
    Paskal
    Spectator

    Igen, Chris Pringle úr, de inkább franciául vagy angolul, ma már manapság is léteznie kell fordításoknak …

    • This reply was modified 4 years ago by Paskal.
    • This reply was modified 4 years ago by Paskal.
    #80763
    Chris Pringle
    Participant

    Igen, Chris Pringle úr, de inkább franciául vagy angolul, ma már manapság is léteznie kell fordításoknak …

    Haha, very good, Paskal – me too! Mais quand ils n’existent pas …

    #80771
    Paskal
    Spectator

    Ha nem léteznek, jobban szereted a magyarokat …Most 2018-ban szeretnék valakit, aki jobban ismeri, mint én, hogy tegyen közzé e témában – angol nyelven – két harci parancsot a harc két hadseregére. Érdemes megérni, amit érnek, de mindig az lesz, hogy jobb ellenfelek várják, és ott lesznek.

    #80774
    Guy Farrish
    Participant

    I think we’d all like a more detailed orbat and account of the battle being published, in any language, but the problem is, as I mentioned above, many of the original primary sources may well have been destroyed (particularly on the one side).

     

     

    #80777
    Paskal
    Spectator

    Yes, we have to make one on this forum, between us, for us …

    #80784
    Mike
    Keymaster

    Ha nem léteznek, jobban szereted a magyarokat …Most 2018-ban szeretnék valakit, aki jobban ismeri, mint én, hogy tegyen közzé e témában – angol nyelven – két harci parancsot a harc két hadseregére. Érdemes megérni, amit érnek, de mindig az lesz, hogy jobb ellenfelek várják, és ott lesznek.

    Hi, TWW does not have many rules.
    But one of them is to post only in English please.

    #80787
    Chris Pringle
    Participant

    Ha nem léteznek, jobban szereted a magyarokat …Most 2018-ban szeretnék valakit, aki jobban ismeri, mint én, hogy tegyen közzé e témában – angol nyelven – két harci parancsot a harc két hadseregére. Érdemes megérni, amit érnek, de mindig az lesz, hogy jobb ellenfelek várják, és ott lesznek.

    Forgive me, Paskal, you’d made the language sound like more of an obstacle to you than it evidently is. Please excuse my misapprehension, I was only trying to help. Best of luck with your project.

    Chris

    #80790
    Paskal
    Spectator

    Yes Chris thank you for your help but  alas I have a little more trouble with Hungarian than with English,…

    Anyone who this year could post “In English language ” battle orders for this battle would be nice to do it even if they are not complete…

    For example a day It would be necessary to translate into English what is known and interesting in Hungarian …

    Unless I find something else in another language easier for me for  example, but I will give my sources ……

    • This reply was modified 4 years ago by Paskal.
    #80806
    Guy Farrish
    Participant

    Paskal, I hope you/we do find something interesting.

    If you find it in Hungarian I am sure Michael wouldn’t mind a very short quote in that language with a source note and maybe a hint in English at the content. After all that wouldn’t be a ‘post’ – it would be a source quote!

    #80814
    Paskal
    Spectator

    Yes right now I’m overwhelmed by something else, but when it’s time I’ll buy two beautiful armies of 25/30 mm figures for this battle, so before buying the figurines, we can hope to find some documentation – but it should also know the particularities of the outfits worn by the Ottoman troops in 1526 …

    #90368
    Paskal
    Spectator

    And if anyone thinks there were Tartar horsemen at the battle of Mohacs that he let us know, thank you.

Viewing 29 posts - 1 through 29 (of 29 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.