Home Forums Terrain and Scenery Need suggestions for flocking large area

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  • #105931
    ThomastonThomaston
    Participant

    Hi, I’ve been sleeping on this for two weeks and I’m still stump.

    My experience with flocking large area is even watered down PVA tend to dry around the edge and patches leaving thin or bald patches. Plus, I want to flock is uneven so there will be pools and the raised area will probably dry out first. Apply glue as I go along doesn’t quite work because I want to have a network of paths in different color and by the time I’m done with the paths, glue would probably dry elsewhere.

    This is what I had in mind. I can split it into top and bottom area, but it’s still daunting.

    Tired is enough.

    #105937
    WhirlwindWhirlwind
    Participant

    Could you do a mixture of caulk, paint and flock?

    https://hereticalgaming.blogspot.co.uk/

    #105940
    Darkest Star GamesDarkest Star Games
    Participant

    Maybe try “spray mount”?  It stays tacky for a long period, and once you have the flock down you can do an overspray of watered down PVA from a cheap spray bottle to keep it all on.  If you’re using foam as a base it may not be a good idea though, as most spraycan propellants will dissolve the foam.

    "I saw this in a cartoon once, but I'm pretty sure I can do it..."

    #105942
    irishserbirishserb
    Participant

    I used to build a lot of roadway models for use as trial exhibits.  The models would range from about 18-120 square feet, with between 60 and 90 percent of the surface area being flocked.  Scale ranged from 1/1200 to 1/12.

    I always used artist’s matte medium, usually Liquitex brand as the “glue”.

    First texture and paint the surface of the terrain.  I usually used some combination of latex and/or acrylic artists paint, though suspect that it doesn’t really matter.  I would then lightly draw out the boundaries of flock colors or features on the surface of the model in dashed lines.  Things like roads and driveways would be painted base colors, and possibly striped with markings and weathered prior to application of the flock.

    You need a lot more flock than will actually stick to the model, like at least 4 times as much, this allows for rapid application of the primary color in a heavy layer.  90 percent of this will brush off, when done.  Have your flock in easy to access, easy to apply containers.  Shading colors can be in shakers, primary colors should be in large containers; plastic bowls, gallon cans, buckets, etc and applied by hand.  When we did these models, I might have a few gallons of flock available for big models.

    Try to do it on a day with high humidity to slow the dry rate for the matte medium.  If the air is real dry, the matte medium will give you a lot less time to work.  If need be, you can by a cheap menthol vaporizer from a drug store and run it prior to starting the flocking.  The size of area that you cover with each pour and spread of matte medium is directly dependent on the ambient humidity.

    For application of the matte medium, I would have about four brushes available.  A three inch household paintbrush would be used for most of the application. A similar 1 inch brush might be used to control application around drives, parking lots and roadways.  A small 1/4 to 1/2 inch artists flat brush would give even finer control in tight areas, and finally a small round artists brush of maybe 1/8 inch for really fine application where needed.  My guess is that you will only need the first one or two of these for your terrain.

    To apply the matte medium, pick a corner, pour out a four inch diameter pool and spread with the big brush into a flat, even, kind of thick coat, maybe 1/32 of an inch thick or a little thicker.  You don’t want super thin areas, or you will have dry streaks of bare paint after flocking.  Keep it wet.  If you notice medium drying during application of medium or flock, re-wet the area with medium.

    Spread out your pool into a fairly consistent coat, you will cover maybe a square foot of area, sprinkle contrasting flock on the area quickly, and lightly, patches of lighter grass, darker grass, etc can be applied.  Generally you don’t want a solid coat of this, but a partial covering, such that the main color can be applied over it, blending the two colors, when the excess is brushed off.

    Dirt paths and walkways may be painted only, or flocked, depending on your preference.  They should be painted prior to application of the flock. If the painted surface will be the final product, you can apply matte medium directly over them, it won’t hurt the final product, but I would suggest avoiding that, as flock could be accidentally applied over a painted path, where it was not wanted.

    If flocking the path, sprinkle contrasting shades lightly, then apply the primary cover in a heavy, solid coat.  Paths and other detail areas, are done in sections as successive batches of medium are applied.  Apply the path colors, then the grass colors, using the same method of contrasting shades, then the main covering.

    You do not apply flock to the entire area of matte medium.  Leave a two inch boundary of medium without flock, between the flocked portion, and the surface without medium.  You will now begin a “wave” type application of of medium pouring a bead of medium, just beyond the perimeter of the previously applied and unflocked medium.  Spread the medium out maybe 4-6 inches wide, adding medium as needed to get this width, re-wetting  the medium exposed from the first application.

    You now have a 6-8 inch “stripe’ of matte medium extending from the boundary of the applied flock.  Apply more flock as per the first application, first extending paths, then applying the grass areas.  Leave the 2 inch boundary of exposed medium, then apply the next “wave” of medium.  Keep applying until you finish the project or run out of flock.

    As you go through the process, you apply medium in a sort of ripple effect, expanding outward from the original application.  As new ripples or waves are applied, they will become longer as the perimeter expands, so will need to get narrower with successive applications.  You will have to determine the dimensions of these new applications, based on the drying rate of the medium, and rate at which you work.  remember, your drying time is a constant; you can only flock a certain sized area in the time before the medium starts to dry, regardless of its shape.  Exposed medium dries way faster, than flocked medium.

    If you don’t have enough flock to cover the whole piece in one application, you should give the last application of matte medium an irregular, jigsaw puzzle edge, to avoid having any sort of visible seam in the flock.  Once the last of the flock is applied, let everything dry.  Depending on humidity and thickness of the flock, this may be 20 minutes or the next day.  Usually 3-4 hours is enough.

    Once the matte medium has dried, brush off the excess flock for re-use.  My main color of flock is always a mix.  I might start with a Woodland Scenics green grass blend, putting aside a small sample at the start of work for color matching later.  After application and drying, brushing off the excess, compare it to the sample.  If the main color has changed shades from the addition of the shading colors, add color as needed to get back to the original color.  Usually, there is no detectable shift in color.

    Pick up where you left off and continue the flock application until done.

    After everything is completely dry, gently brush off all of the excess flock, recovering as much as possible for future use.  After that, tip the terrain on edge and tap the underside to remove what has been missed, and then brush the surface while it is on edge.

    If you have bare spots, those can be touched up by applied a thin coat of matte medium, and applying flock to blend into the prior work.  As you develop your technique, you won’t have much, if any touch up required.

    If you want to apply areas of fine and other areas of coarse flock, they can be done in different stages if you prefer. Fist applying the thin, letting dry, then applying the coarse.  This will allow your to maximize the recovered flock.  You will develop a method based on your own skill set and style.

    Particularly for gaming, I use almost exclusively fine flock, and I usually make two applications of the flock.  This will result in a very solid coat and coloring of the flock, no painted dirt will show through the two layers, but it may work for you, depending on your preferences. For a second coat, the surface of the prior application of flock needs to be wet, but doesn’t have to have the thick layer of matter medium.  This application may take a bit longer to dry , than the first.

    If you do two layers of flock, the first coat only needs to be a base color for paths, grass, etc.  The second coat will consist of the shading application and then main color over it.

    When all is dry and finished, you can apply a spray seal coat if you like, maybe a flat spray paint of your choice.  I don’t usually do this, but have on occasion, when I know the model will have a lot of handling.

    I’ve never had issues with the matte medium running or pooling, but generally am applying it to surfaces with a 1 to 3 rise over run or less.  I have had a few occasions where the surface has been 45 degree slopes or more, and didn’t really have any problems with it.  I did work with smaller areas at a time.

    The main thing is that you are working quickly with a rapid succession of small areas.  Stay consistent, and organized.  Give yourself space to work,  don’t get in your own way, and it moves along fluidly.  If you have a helper, make one person a painter, applying the matte medium, and the other a “flocker”.  It will go very smoothly in that case.  Just be sure to instruct the painter not to get too far ahead of the flocker, as he will need to keep re-applying matte medium, which is 3-4 times more expensive than glue.

    Shop around for sources of matte medium, some venders, such as Prizm in the American midwest sell it for around 30 percent below retail. I have used other brands on occasion. Royal seems to have similar properties.  One, maybe Grumbacker, was thinner in consistancy, which I didn’t like.

    DO a test piece first,  maybe a 1 foot square that can be a throw away if need be.  Particularly if this is all new to you.  We all have different technical, modeling, and artistic skills.  Some things willbe harder for one person, than the next.

    So that is one method, I could show you in five minutes, and it would seem a lot less intimidating than all of this text will seem.

    Best of luck, and hope this might be helpful.

     

     

     

    #105944
    irishserbirishserb
    Participant

    Not sure if this is what Darkest star is referring to,  but when I’ve been in a jam for time, I have used spray adhesive, which will work.  It can be messy with the over spray.  lay down newspaer for 4-6 feet around your work area.  If the foam is well painted, a couple of coats, you will probably be okay as far as the chemical reaction with the foam.

    I’ve  used to 3M Super 77 spray adhesive, but the solvent in it now attacks EPS foam, paint will protect it though.  This I know from experience.  3M also sells a craft foam version of spray adhesive that I use to laminate layers of blue foam.  It doesn’t attack the foam at all.  I suspect that it doesn’t give as strong a bond, and it sprays in a sort of figure eight pattern that is kind of stringy.  It will probably add a texture to the surface of the foam is used for flock.

    If I were going to use a spray, I would go with the Super 77 after two coats of paint on the foam.

    Matte medium will last for at least 31 years, spray adhesive probably 5-10 years, though maybe longer if coated with a spray sealant.

    #105964
    ThomastonThomaston
    Participant

    I didn’t know acrylic and spray had usable life.

    Liquitex medium sounds promising, especially if it’s water proof.

    Tired is enough.

    #110634
    ThomastonThomaston
    Participant

    Update.

    It’s been slow work and there were a few months of non progress but it’s finally finished.
    Not what I had in my head but it came out ok.

     

     

    https://www.thewargameswebsite.com/wp-content/uploads/hm_bbpui/110634/ueroxl1hbrbxa4fhzqut2maptnvy1200.jpghttps://www.thewargameswebsite.com/wp-content/uploads/hm_bbpui/110634/98d3vd3kerjf8mrjrj1cuvo4w5m8iyud.jpg

     

    Nested into place.

    Tired is enough.

    #110635
    Ali Dogan SayinerAli Dogan Sayiner
    Participant

    Excellent!

    find me
    www.iliadagamestudio.com
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/iliadagamestudio/
    [email protected]

    #110643
    OchoinOchoin
    Participant

    Better than “OK”. Very nice, indeed.

     

    donald

    #110645
    irishserbirishserb
    Participant

    Absolutely beautiful work!

    #110672
    Darkest Star GamesDarkest Star Games
    Participant

    Came out ok?  Just ok?  Duuuuude, that is fantastic!

    So what are you going to do with this piece of awesomeness?

    "I saw this in a cartoon once, but I'm pretty sure I can do it..."

    #110679
    Norm SNorm S
    Participant

    very nicely done.

    http://commanders.simdif.com

    #110684
    ThomastonThomaston
    Participant

    Thanks all, for the kind words.

    This will be the map for an RPG campaign, hopefully it’ll spawn many tales.

    My mental image of this was a lot prettier. It’s based on the starter area in Black Desert Online so the visual baseline is there.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by ThomastonThomaston.

    Tired is enough.

    #110687

    Nice job there.

    ___________________
    http://moveshootassault.blogspot.com
    https://sites.google.com/site/miniaturemachinations

    #110706
    Angel BarracksAngel Barracks
    Moderator

    That is epic, looking forward to exploring it.

    #110709
    Darkest Star GamesDarkest Star Games
    Participant

    Oddly enough, I think yours is a much more realistic depiction of real map terrain.  Many moons ago I made a big board for a Vietnam game using 1/600 figures and portraying the attack on “Charlies Point” from Apocalypse Now (a bit expanded as the PBR had to get up river to boot).  It was an epic game, but I hadn’t thought of a realistic relief/sandtable “map” before.  This would work superbly for operational level games that are a bit more abstract.

    "I saw this in a cartoon once, but I'm pretty sure I can do it..."

    #110735
    ThomastonThomaston
    Participant

    I’ve thought of using it for a game of command level tank battle inspired by German invasion of Poland and lately Tiny Air Combat.

    Tired is enough.

    #118464
    ThomastonThomaston
    Participant

    Second attempt, this time the hills are a lot smoother. Nice sunny day.

    Tired is enough.

    #118468
    Just Jack
    Participant

    I’m really starting to despise you!  Not just because of my jealousy, but your perfectionism.   That’s incredible, absolutely beautiful!  Only you could be unhappy with it! 😉

    V/R,

    Jack

    #118475
    Darkest Star GamesDarkest Star Games
    Participant

    Looks like a very good start.  Is this supplementary to the previous board, a replacement for a part of it, or a totally new attempt?

    "I saw this in a cartoon once, but I'm pretty sure I can do it..."

    #118480
    ThomastonThomaston
    Participant

    This one is for a modern game, very gamey and condensed. Using up the left over insulation board so I don’t ahve to store it away.

    I have an aversion to starting new threads.

    Tired is enough.

    #118916
    ThomastonThomaston
    Participant

    Tried a few new things this time and I think the result is about the same.

    In stead of using watered down PVA I mixed PVA with alcohol. It creates a mucus like gel that was easier to paint around and remain tacky a little longer. I think there were a low fewer bald patches and fixing those patch with the PVA mucus was easier. Watered down PVA usually leaves thick clumps the mucus thing didn’t. I think I’ll use this method from now on.

    After the whole thing was covered I sprayed the board with alcohol hoping to seal it like watered PVA would. I don’t think it works that way since it’ll just get tacky and no flow over the top of the ground cover. So, I gave it a very liberal coat of acrylic varnish. We’ll see tomorrow if this stands up to my handing test.

    Waiting for clump foliage to arrive. In my wisdom when I switched to 3mm I threw all my expensive woodland scenic foliage away and had to buy them again. While I’m waiting I be painting windows.

    Inset is where I screwed up. The building is facing the wrong way. The straight line of water into the island is too unrealistic, should have stopped waaaaaaaay before. Maybe it’s a failed harbor project?

    Tired is enough.

    #118932
    Just Jack
    Participant

    Looks good to me, will look even better once you’ve got the forest laid on.

    Modern, eh? So what’s the plan? It’s green, so are we looking at some sort of Cold War Gone Hot, or some Balkans-type issue? The first thing I thought of was the brewhaha in Georgia over South Ossetia back in 2008.  No need for infantry, just throw some tanks and attack helicopters on the board and have at it, turn the tank crews into characters with traits.

    So what’s the plan?

    V/R,

    Jack

    #118944
    Mr. Average
    Participant

    Not too unrealistic, a sound can occur on even very small islands,

    #118948
    ThomastonThomaston
    Participant

    Thanks Mr Average, I found my next terrain project.

    @Jack

    The plan is 3mm (because I’m too lazy to sculpt 6mm guns), 2011 not military (because JRR Martin hates war), very silly, politically incorrect and morally questionable.

    Tired is enough.

    #118975
    Just Jack
    Participant

    “…very silly, politically incorrect and morally questionable.”
    Sounds alright to me, though I must admit my ignorance, I don’t grasp the JRR Martin reference (was it supposed to be GRR Martin? Even so, I’ve never seen Game of Thrones, so not sure it would matter).

    In any case, will there be tanks?  I need tanks! 😉

    V/R,
    Jack

    #118988
    ThomastonThomaston
    Participant

    Oops I did it again. I got those two mixed up again don’t know why I keep doing it. One is a professor who wrote a long convoluted series of books about fantasy stuff famous for making up a language and only killed one main character. The other is an author writing a convoluted series of books about fantasy stuff, has some made up language and kills his characters all the time. The point of Game of Thrones was the author hates war.

    Sorry, no tanks. I was going to have vehicles and helicopters but probaly will not have those either the board is too small. My original idea was a different game. Smaller sized buildings grouped in 7-9 towns. I’d land a platoon of early WWII tanks and take over towns one by one. With each town I’ll gain resource and be able to repair and resupply or call for reinforcements. I couldn’t have tanks without infantry and ended up wanting to play with the infantry more than the tanks, as usual.

    Maybe when FNG:OGH is released I’ll get into micro armor again.

    EDIT:
    Clump foliage arrived yesterday and I forgot to check the postbox -_-‘

    EDIT EDIT:
    The board didn’t stand up to my test, it was close but those ground cover rubs off so I covered it with watered down PVA and will be giving it another coat of varnish.

    • This reply was modified 10 months ago by ThomastonThomaston.
    • This reply was modified 10 months ago by ThomastonThomaston.

    Tired is enough.

    #119027
    Darkest Star GamesDarkest Star Games
    Participant

    Maybe when FNG:OGH is released I’ll get into micro armor again.

      I’ll send you a playtest when I can get it a little more readable and I rework infantry.  Pick it apart!

    "I saw this in a cartoon once, but I'm pretty sure I can do it..."

    #119031
    Just Jack
    Participant

    Thomaston,

    ”My original idea was a different game. Smaller sized buildings grouped in 7-9 towns. I’d land a platoon of early WWII tanks and take over towns one by one. With each town I’ll gain resource and be able to repair and resupply or call for reinforcements.“

    I’m really digging that idea.  And sorry the board is having issues; that’s the spot where I usually toss it in the trash, here’s hoping you stick with it and have better luck!

    V/R,

    Jack

    #119039
    ThomastonThomaston
    Participant

    @DSG 😀

    @Jack
    It’s not a big issue I just need to put more coating on it so the stuff don’t come off. Now I found out I need more foliage and different colors. My terrain are very slow burn. Unlike miniatures that can be started, finished and painted in a week terrain usually last months depending on my mood. I never throw things away, I still have my first sculpts and 15mm terrain pieces. You never know when you might want to reuse them.

    Tired is enough.

    #119043
    Just Jack
    Participant

    I’m too impatient for that.  It’s a character flaw, one of many 😉

    V/R,

    Jack

    #119127
    ThomastonThomaston
    Participant

    It’s alive!!
    The island of Isla Ilha island.

    Tired is enough.

    #119130
    Darkest Star GamesDarkest Star Games
    Participant

    Looks really good.  Now get playing and writing!

    "I saw this in a cartoon once, but I'm pretty sure I can do it..."

    #119134
    ThomastonThomaston
    Participant

    Everything is ready but not yet. I want to get more of the fantasy story going before I start another game.

    Edit: I forgot to do the trees for my fantasy terrain at the same time, tunnel vision.

    • This reply was modified 10 months ago by ThomastonThomaston.

    Tired is enough.

    #119137
    Just Jack
    Participant

    Looks amazing, and I’m with Darby: hurry up!

    V/R,

    Jack

    #119144
    RhodericRhoderic
    Participant

    I really like the contrast between the “well-developed”, prosperous-looking central area and the more “shabby” outer clusters of buildings.

     

    The point of Game of Thrones was the author hates war.

    Sure had me fooled.

    • This reply was modified 10 months ago by RhodericRhoderic.
    #119155
    ThomastonThomaston
    Participant

    @Rhoderic

    Yeah I like to mock the show exactly because of that.

    Next Project so noone can accuse me of not being overly ambitious. Should take about a year to finish.

    Tired is enough.

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