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  • #125917
    Stephen Madjanovich
    Participant

    Well I had a couple questions after we played our first game of NEiS V 2.0. We played badly and botched up quite a few rules. Understandable for a very first and rushed try. So I reread the rules up to before buildings, so to the end of page 26. I couldn’t find answers to my questions so I am not as blind as I think I am. It also brought up lots more questions. I went through the NEiS threads here which clarified only a couple questions and resulted in more head scratching. What follows is my questions, answers where I found them, and associated “what the” moments they might have raised. The last bit is of me being rules anal. I used to play against the world’s biggest rules lawyer so everything had to have only one interpretation or answer and in keeping with that thinking carrying on I present the last word.

    Questions

    1. Reaction Fire

    When does this occur, only during rushes or anytime a valid target presents itself? My example is my activated unit rounds the corner of a building. Standing there are my opponent’s forces. Since I am on an activation which allows movement and firing I can shoot at him.

    Can he reaction fire at me or only “normal” fire during his next activation assuming he is not exhausted?
    If he is exhausted can he still reaction fire?
    Are both fires simultaneous or does activation fire or reaction fire always go first?

    2. Break check

    Is this conducted once for each leader’s unit at the end of a turn?
    Or is it conducted after each activation by any unit which took any adverse (pin, wound or kill) result?
    Based on a game example in TWW it appears to be the second above which means a unit can be subject to massive break checks in a single turn. In fact they can be subject to a break check after every single activation from either side during a turn if unlucky enough to be repeatedly under fire and taking effects.

    3. Pin removal

    Do you have to activate the leader then do pin removals or not? So if you have two pins to remove does it cost 3 points or 2? I assume 3 if one of the pins is the leader.

    4. Do leaders activate for free

    Again based on an example from TWW it appears leaders can move for free. They only have to pay their own activation point if they wish to fire, unpin themselves (subject to the answer from above), or perform any activity from the action point cost table. If they wish to group fire they have to pay 2 activation points, one for their men and one for themselves.

    5. Reaction Fire

    Since the rules as written only cover fire against rushing troops this may answer 1 above. In reaction fire all rolls are for hits not pins and since they can only fire at targets which didn’t make their rush distance check those troops are already pinned. Does this apply in any way to 1 above as in the situation stated can you only generate “hits” and all troops now in LOS (and firing) are automatically pinned as they stopped without cover.

    6. Morale, Casualties, and Stress leader casualties

    What constitutes a casualty for game terms and ?
    Are pinned troops casualties?
    Are treated wounded casualties?
    Are untreated wounded casualties?
    Are dead casualties?

    7. Close Assaults and reaction fire

    Again reaction fire raises its ugly head. A unit being assaulted is allowed reaction fire, only if it can/cannot activate? Is the reaction fire before, simultaneous or after assaulting fire?

    Last word

    Can you change the usage of “shock dice” to pin dice?
    Can you change the usage of “kill dice” to hit dice?

    I have a strategic solitaire game about the Soviet-Afghan war. In it the author seems to have a brand new thesaurus as he constantly uses up to three different words or term for the same thing. In his case each counter has (for example from memory) a combat value unless it is a plane or helicopter in which case it has a bombardment factor. On the little image where the values on the counters are pointed out there are no combat values or bombardment value just an attack rating. I ASSUME they are the same but no where are these values defined and throughout the rules all three terms are used randomly. They also use the another term for two different values and charts in another pat of the rules. Way confusing. This happens at least 3 times throughout a 20 page rules book. Please use one term for one thing. It makes clarity and life so much easier.

    You define a light automatic weapon and a SAW. How is an RPK much different from an M249? How would a bren gun rate? Is an MG 34 or 42 a crew served or SAW? When used bi pod or tripod? Belt fed vs magazine fed? Again being anal but it really becomes opinion. An MG 34/42 was treated as both a SAW and as a medium support weapon as were many post war machine guns, but in game terms how would a full size cartridge firing weapon be treated? I can see the division being X number of round magazine treat it as a light automatic and Y round magazine or belt fed as a SAW. If not used as a squad weapon but as a platoon or company level asset then it becomes a crew served weapon. Alternatively a light automatic requires one crew a SAW two but only 3 dice and a crew served two but four dice, dependent on trooper quality.

    #125918
    Ivan SorensenIvan Sorensen
    Participant

    Well I had a couple questions after we played our first game of NEiS V 2.0. We played badly and botched up quite a few rules. Understandable for a very first and rushed try. So I reread the rules up to before buildings, so to the end of page 26. I couldn’t find answers to my questions so I am not as blind as I think I am. It also brought up lots more questions. I went through the NEiS threads here which clarified only a couple questions and resulted in more head scratching. What follows is my questions, answers where I found them, and associated “what the” moments they might have raised. The last bit is of me being rules anal. I used to play against the world’s biggest rules lawyer so everything had to have only one interpretation or answer and in keeping with that thinking carrying on I present the last word.

    Cheers mate. Answers below.
    NEIS goes back a ways so it’s not a “water proof” in the writing as I might have liked today. I’ll certainly take these into account when the time comes to update things.

    Questions

    1. Reaction Fire

    When does this occur, only during rushes or anytime a valid target presents itself? My example is my activated unit rounds the corner of a building. Standing there are my opponent’s forces. Since I am on an activation which allows movement and firing I can shoot at him.

    Can he reaction fire at me or only “normal” fire during his next activation assuming he is not exhausted?
    If he is exhausted can he still reaction fire?
    Are both fires simultaneous or does activation fire or reaction fire always go first?

    The relevant rule here is “Moving Cautiously” at the bottom of page 15. Troops moving into sight but within cover (for example on a building corner) do NOT trigger reaction fire.

    As you are getting at, reaction fire is specifically in response to a failed rush.

    Troops can reaction fire as long as they are not pinned down, even if Exhausted.

    Newer games of mine have a section that talks about timing, but NEIS predates that, so let me explain it here:
    My games always use what I all “absolute timing” which means everything is resolved as it happens.

    So lets say Trooper Jones shoots at your men, then I run across the street suffering reaction fire and those who make it want to shoot at you.
    Resolve Jones first, then move and resolve reaction fires, finally the survivors shoot back.

    2. Break check

    Is this conducted once for each leader’s unit at the end of a turn?
    Or is it conducted after each activation by any unit which took any adverse (pin, wound or kill) result?
    Based on a game example in TWW it appears to be the second above which means a unit can be subject to massive break checks in a single turn. In fact they can be subject to a break check after every single activation from either side during a turn if unlucky enough to be repeatedly under fire and taking effects.

    This may change in a future version since I am not 100% content with it right now, but the intention is that any time you take fire, you make a Break check.
    For units in cover, pressure only builds if you took casualties or have untreated wounded, so most break checks are passed automatically.

    Troops in the open are incredibly fragile, maybe a bit too much.

    I’d try it as written a couple times, but if its a problem, limit it to once per phase.

    3. Pin removal

    Do you have to activate the leader then do pin removals or not? So if you have two pins to remove does it cost 3 points or 2? I assume 3 if one of the pins is the leader.

    The leader does not have to be active himself to do pin removal.

    4. Do leaders activate for free

    Again based on an example from TWW it appears leaders can move for free. They only have to pay their own activation point if they wish to fire, unpin themselves (subject to the answer from above), or perform any activity from the action point cost table. If they wish to group fire they have to pay 2 activation points, one for their men and one for themselves.

    Correct. We assume leaders have enough initiative to move where they are needed.

    5. Reaction Fire

    Since the rules as written only cover fire against rushing troops this may answer 1 above. In reaction fire all rolls are for hits not pins and since they can only fire at targets which didn’t make their rush distance check those troops are already pinned. Does this apply in any way to 1 above as in the situation stated can you only generate “hits” and all troops now in LOS (and firing) are automatically pinned as they stopped without cover.

    If they rush and fail their rush roll (I say Im rushing 4 inch, but roll a 2) they are pinned automatically and we roll for hits.
    If they rush in the open and succeed in the rush roll, they dont get pinned but as they have no cover, I get to roll for hits (“advancing in the open” page 16)

    6. Morale, Casualties, and Stress leader casualties

    What constitutes a casualty for game terms and ?
    Are pinned troops casualties?
    Are treated wounded casualties?
    Are untreated wounded casualties?
    Are dead casualties?

    Casualties are wounded (regardless of treatment) and dead.

    Pinned are NOT casualties.

    7. Close Assaults and reaction fire

    Again reaction fire raises its ugly head. A unit being assaulted is allowed reaction fire, only if it can/cannot activate? Is the reaction fire before, simultaneous or after assaulting fire?

    Unless a given figure is Wounded or Pinned, they can always React.

    Absolute timing applies so move up, take reaction fire, then conduct the assault.

    Can you change the usage of “shock dice” to pin dice?
    Can you change the usage of “kill dice” to hit dice?

    I’ll certainly ponder that. The terms were chosen because I had an older game that used the same dice terms, but that may not be needed any longer.

    Please use one term for one thing. It makes clarity and life so much easier.

    Agreed.

    You define a light automatic weapon and a SAW. How is an RPK much different from an M249? How would a bren gun rate? Is an MG 34 or 42 a crew served or SAW? When used bi pod or tripod? Belt fed vs magazine fed? Again being anal but it really becomes opinion. An MG 34/42 was treated as both a SAW and as a medium support weapon as were many post war machine guns, but in game terms how would a full size cartridge firing weapon be treated? I can see the division being X number of round magazine treat it as a light automatic and Y round magazine or belt fed as a SAW. If not used as a squad weapon but as a platoon or company level asset then it becomes a crew served weapon. Alternatively a light automatic requires one crew a SAW two but only 3 dice and a crew served two but four dice, dependent on trooper quality.

    As you suggest, it really depends on personal views.
    My take is that if an infantry squad is hauling it around and it’s used as part of that infantry team, its an SAW.

    If it’s deployed on its own with a big pile of spare ammo, then its “crew served”.

    That’s not entirely water-proof but I feel like it fits well enough.

    So in a WW2 context, I wouldn’t worry about a Bren vs DP vs MG34 personally. They’re all SAW’s.

    Some players feel strongly that the GPMG in the squad role should be superior option to a magazine fed weapon. If so, I might suggest +3 firepower but does not get the loader bonus.

    In that view: Bren +2, MG34 in squad role +3, MG34 on tripod and with linked belts +3 (+4 with loader).

    THAT BEING SAID, there’s probably a hundred arguments that could be made for why I’m wrong about that 🙂

    Hope the above helps and I hope your second outing with the rules is smoother!
    It’s a bit of a beast, compared to how a lot of other games work.

    Best wishes
    Ivan

    Nordic Weasel Games
    https://sites.google.com/site/nordicweaselgames/

    #125919
    Stephen Madjanovich
    Participant

    Thank you very much for the quickness and thoughtfulness of your reply. Sorry for being pedantic but here are my interpretations of your replies where I still have “issues” or more realistically further thoughts or ideas.

    Reaction fire can only occur;

    1. At troops failing their rush attempt.
    2. At troops attempting to close for close combat.
    3. At troops using 1D6″ of movement to cross open ground in LOS of an enemy. If the troops just take their 3″ they are not subject to reaction fire. If they cannot reach cover (say a stone fence 7″ away) they could spend one activation moving 3″ and not be subject to reaction fire (but regular fire if applicable) and could try rushing the remaining 4″ another turn. Troops moving into the open from behind a building but moving 3″ would not be subject to reaction fire. It is assumed they are moving with some degree of stealth (moving cautiously into the open).

    I am looking for your thought processes as much as iron clad rules as what you have in mind will tend to answer as much.

    I think we played break check as written. My troops, which I also made subject to reaction fire while moving cautiously, just kept falling back. If not subject to all the reaction fire they may have fared better.

    Absolute timing seems right, mention it in the rules (unless it is but I can’t remember seeing it yet).

    I think we pretty much agree upon most machine guns. I do not know enough about various weapons to have any authority (despite watching so many episodes of Forgotten Weapons) on how a weapon would rate. I guess the only opening would be what rates as a light automatic. You mention the BAR, what makes you think LA for it, magazine size, lack of dedicated loader, doctrine of application?

    My issue is a lot of the weapons need a dedicated loader or even two who cannot add their personal firepower while servicing the weapon in reality. So SAWs need 2 troops only one of which gets dice, a crew served needs 3 but same. This would tend to make them close to break even as far as total dice. So do the attached troops still add their personal dice as by servicing the weapon they increase it’s effectiveness? That would make any weapon fired by professionals way deadly. Thoughts?

    For a true light automatic I come up with the FG42. A personal automatic weapon firing a full size/power cartridge which only had a limited magazine but was handled by a single trooper. Just my $0.02 and worth every penny!

    #126036
    Ivan SorensenIvan Sorensen
    Participant

    Cheers friend.

    You can only take the fixed 3″ move when you are “safe”.
    So troops advancing out of sight? Can use it.
    Troops moving up to the corner or a building? Can use it.
    Troops in the open? Have to rush.

    Now troops advancing on, say, a stone fence? I’d be tempted to say they are “safe” unless the enemy have troops on a roof top (for example).
    They’d still be visible to fire upon normally but would not take reactions.

    The way I view fire in the game is like this:
    Ordered fire (You spend activations to shoot) is the troops concentrating their efforts on something that is important to the mission, pointed out by their leader etc.)
    Reaction fire is spontaneous fire that happens to an obvious target.

    So a grunt rushes from cover to cover? Clear target, so someone is going to take some shots at him = Reaction fire.

    The same grunt in the open but stationary? Would be on the ground and hard to see. You can shoot at him in your turn (ordered fire) but he isn’t subject to reaction fire until he moves again.

    Hope thats clearer as far as the intentions?

    Absolute Timing – Yeah, it’ll go on the list for any future updates.

    Machine gun talk
    For me, the FG42 or BAR would be “light automatics” due to lack of easy-swap barrels and frequent reloading.
    The BAR was operated by a crew, though since you have to shift or lift the gun to reload, that’s less useful than for the Bren (f.x.).
    As fr as I know (which may well be wrong) the FG42 was operated mostly as a rifle, but since it has superior firepower to other WW2 weapons, it would get the LA designation.

    For game purposes, we do add the firepower of any crew figures, since it ended up being much easier in play (just count the number of men, then add any machine gun bonus for the squad).
    A more realistic / simulation option would be to increase the machine gun bonus but not allow the crew to fire.

    That’s easily done, the problem we ran into originally is that a lot of miniatures packs don’t give you proper loader/assistant figures for SAWs 🙁

    That’s a lot of imperfect answers but I hope it gives a bit of light into the muddy realm of game design compromises 🙂

    Nordic Weasel Games
    https://sites.google.com/site/nordicweaselgames/

    #126051
    Stephen Madjanovich
    Participant

    Cheers friend.

    You can only take the fixed 3″ move when you are “safe”.
    So troops advancing out of sight? Can use it.
    Troops moving up to the corner or a building? Can use it.
    Troops in the open? Have to rush.

    Now troops advancing on, say, a stone fence? I’d be tempted to say they are “safe” unless the enemy have troops on a roof top (for example).
    They’d still be visible to fire upon normally but would not take reactions.

    The way I view fire in the game is like this:
    Ordered fire (You spend activations to shoot) is the troops concentrating their efforts on something that is important to the mission, pointed out by their leader etc.)
    Reaction fire is spontaneous fire that happens to an obvious target.

    So a grunt rushes from cover to cover? Clear target, so someone is going to take some shots at him = Reaction fire.

    The same grunt in the open but stationary? Would be on the ground and hard to see. You can shoot at him in your turn (ordered fire) but he isn’t subject to reaction fire until he moves again.

    Hope thats clearer as far as the intentions?

    So in the example from the game we played if my troops who started out of sight behind, and not near the corner, of the building just moved 3″ (or less) and hugged the corner they would not be subject to reaction fire but only two of them would be likely able to fire on their activation.

    If they were to round the corner moving at the 3″ (or less) rate but ended their movement about an inch away from the corner, in order for say 4 to 6 of them to fire, they could not but would have to make a rush roll with the chance of being pinned and possibly not making the 1″ to 2″ of movement required They would also be subject to reaction fire before their fire.

    Seems odd there is no ability to move in LOS. Even if the figures were to move 1″ beyond the corner of building they still have a 1 in 6 chance of both being subject to reaction fire and being pinned. Again this assumes no cover within the 1″.

    I was on the short end of that stick in our game so I admit I have a bit of an issue, but looking at the above description now I tend to agree. It is just keeping any form of advancement from happening unless under cover.

    Machine gun talk
    For me, the FG42 or BAR would be “light automatics” due to lack of easy-swap barrels and frequent reloading.
    The BAR was operated by a crew, though since you have to shift or lift the gun to reload, that’s less useful than for the Bren (f.x.).
    As fr as I know (which may well be wrong) the FG42 was operated mostly as a rifle, but since it has superior firepower to other WW2 weapons, it would get the LA designation.

    For game purposes, we do add the firepower of any crew figures, since it ended up being much easier in play (just count the number of men, then add any machine gun bonus for the squad).
    A more realistic / simulation option would be to increase the machine gun bonus but not allow the crew to fire.

    That’s easily done, the problem we ran into originally is that a lot of miniatures packs don’t give you proper loader/assistant figures for SAWs 🙁

    That’s a lot of imperfect answers but I hope it gives a bit of light into the muddy realm of game design compromises 🙂

    I actually like the idea that non gunners still provide their dice to the pool even though they should not be actually firing. It is their support to the attack which allows the machine gun to operate more effectively.

    Comparing real world weapons always has the potential for players to either asses their favorite better and their opponents’ worse. Nobody wins. I was just looking at potential “real world” examples as starting points. I do like your take on BAR vs Bren and I have to say I think I have no money in that game.

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