Home Forums Modern No End in Sight. Game mechanics breakdown

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  • #8328
    Ivan Sorensen
    Participant

    Somewhere in Afghanistan 1983.

    We’re scouting out a village under Mujahideen control. I have 6 men in my squad, huddled along a wall on one side of a street, with the rest of the platoon further back, spread throughout the village.

    It’s my turn and I activate my squad leader, roll 1D6 for his activation points. I get a 3, and I decide to move the RPK and two riflemen across the street.
    We’re moving outside of sight of enemies and into cover, so each soldier takes a 3″ move, crossing the street.

    I place a Stress marker on my squad leader to indicate he has been activated once. Now the game changes to the other side.
    The Mujahideen player activates the leader of a nearby group, rolling a 4. The leader activates four of their troops, sneaking forward through cover and placing them where they can look down the street.

    When activated, a soldier can both move as well as fire at a target, so they open up on my troops, firing at the group that haven’t crossed the street yet.

    4 irregular shooters with rifles gives him 4 points of fire power. This means 4 dice are rolled for shock, trying to score a 5 or 6 on each of the dice.
    Scoring 1,2,5,5, two of my men are pinned down.

    Pinned troopers:
    A pinned soldier can’t take any actions. An activation point has to be spent to rally them. If enemies come too close to a pinned soldier, they may fall back.

    Of course, bullets tend to hurt people too though fire fights tend to inflict much fewer casualties than you might be used to in war games. With 4 fire power, the enemy gets to roll 2 dice to inflict hits, requiring a 6 to hit. The dice come up 3 and 6. Man down!
    Dicing to determine the effect of the hit, my man is wounded.

    Philosophy:
    In a fire fight, most gun fire is suppressive in nature. When you read about encounters taking place at range, extensive fire is exchanged but only a few casualties might occur, unless an assault takes place at close quarters.
    As such, the chance of scoring casualties (especially against troops in cover) are very low. Firing at troops in cover will cause several to be pinned and continued fire may push them back, but the normal gaming tactic of annihilating troops in cover by shooting at them long enough won’t work.

    Morale:
    Any time a group is fired upon, they may be subject to a morale test. I took 2 pins and a casualty, for a total morale score of 3. Rolling 1D6 for morale, I roll a 2. Since the roll was equal or under the morale score, the group falls back a distance equal to the dice roll, in this case 2 inches.

    Morale affects troops within 2″ of each other. My squad is split up into two groups with about 3″ apart, so the group that already crossed the street stays where they are, while the other group retreats 2″.

    The Mujahideen leader gets a point of Stress and play passes back to me.

    I review the situation and decide to activate my squad leader again. I can pick any leader at my disposal but I am worried that the squad will be over run if I don’t push them into better positions.
    Rolling for activation, I have to deduct the Stress on the leader. He has one point from earlier, so I roll 1D6 minus 1 for a total of 4 points.

    I spend 2 points to recover the two soldiers that were pinned down and spend the other 2 to activate two of the soldiers that crossed the street. They’re not in good positions to fire from where they are but there’s a wrecked vehicle a bit further up the street.

    Rushing the open ground:
    Any time soldiers move in the open, while in sight of the enemy, things change. Instead of a slow, cautious advance, soldiers move by rushing a short distance, hoping to reach cover before enemy fire gets too close.

    To rush open ground, I nominate my destination, which is the wrecked vehicle slightly over 3″ away. I roll 1D6 for each soldier rushing, scoring a 2 and a 5.
    Since a move of 5″ is more than plenty, I place one guy in cover behind the vehicle. Luckily, this was the RPK gunner.
    However, a 2 is not enough to get there, so the assistant moves 2 inches before being pinned down in the open. The Afghans get to roll to see if they hit him, but fail to score a 6.

    *****

    From there, the game continues but that should give you a decent snapshot into the movement and combat mechanics of the game.

    Nordic Weasel Games
    https://www.wargamevault.com/browse/pub/5701/Nordic-Weasel-Games?src=browse5701

    #8332
    kyoteblue
    Participant

    I need these rules !!!!

    #8338
    kyoteblue
    Participant

    Oh and how does it handle vehicles???

    #8343
    shelldrake
    Participant

    Again, thanks for posting the information here and the other thread.

    some questions:

     

    With the movement described, is the game played in a small playing area?

    I am guessing that a Squad is easily played and you don’t need a whole platoon?  I play a bit of Vietnam games using just a six man LRRP team vs VC/NVA, so wouldn’t need that many leaders on the board.

    Having said that, a LRRP team has a Team Leader, and an Assitant Team Leader. Would the rules allow me to use either of them to get activation points? Or is the Squad/Section Leader the only one at that level that can give orders as it were?

    Hiding and Spotting: are there any rules to cover this?  LRRP teams like to hide, and it is important to some of the scenarios I play, so I am hoping there is something in the rules to cover this.

    Those are the only questions I have at the moment. The more I learn about the rules the more I like the sounds of them, especially as the activation system would work perfectly for solo games too.

     

     

     

     

    #8344
    Ivan Sorensen
    Participant

    Again, thanks for posting the information here and the other thread. some questions: With the movement described, is the game played in a small playing area?I am guessing that a Squad is easily played and you don’t need a whole platoon? I play a bit of Vietnam games using just a six man LRRP team vs VC/NVA, so wouldn’t need that many leaders on the board. Having said that, a LRRP team has a Team Leader, and an Assitant Team Leader. Would the rules allow me to use either of them to get activation points? Or is the Squad/Section Leader the only one at that level that can give orders as it were? Hiding and Spotting: are there any rules to cover this? LRRP teams like to hide, and it is important to some of the scenarios I play, so I am hoping there is something in the rules to cover this. Those are the only questions I have at the moment. The more I learn about the rules the more I like the sounds of them, especially as the activation system would work perfectly for solo games too.

     

    Play area: Yeah, it’s intended for a play area between 2×2 and 3×3 feet. So movement ranges are kind of short because you’re darting from cover to cover.

    You don’t need a platoon if you break down the elements a bit. If you have one squad, treat them as two separate entities. There’s some notes on that, but basically the team leader can act as a leader just fine, if that’s how you set up the scenario.

    The squad leader would then be the “platoon leader” role, being able to activate men from both teams.

     

    Sadly, no stealth and hiding. I’ll try to put something together and put it online as a freebie. The main focus as it stands now is when the two formations are at close quarters and the fire fight has begun.

    That being said, it wouldn’t be dreadfully hard to improvise.

     

    Kyote – I’ll do a bit about vehicles tomorrow. For now, vehicles are pretty generic (from the perspective of an infantry commander, a tank is a tank). You have traits you can apply to differentiate them a bit though.

    Vehicles function as a squad in their own right, with combat being quite deadly. After all, on a typical gaming table, your tanks are maybe 200 meters apart at best. Point blank even for a T55.

    Nordic Weasel Games
    https://www.wargamevault.com/browse/pub/5701/Nordic-Weasel-Games?src=browse5701

    #8345
    kyoteblue
    Participant

    Thanks Dude.

    #8347
    shelldrake
    Participant

    Thanks for the reply – temptation rising, and the fact it has solo and campaign rules means I will find it hard to resist much longer

    #8348
    Ivan Sorensen
    Participant

    Thanks for the reply – temptation rising, and the fact it has solo and campaign rules means I will find it hard to resist much longer

     

    It has a LOT of campaign rules 😉

    If it helps tempt you further, there’ll be a hard scifi option in the future too, though I can’t honestly say when. A few months out probably.

    Nordic Weasel Games
    https://www.wargamevault.com/browse/pub/5701/Nordic-Weasel-Games?src=browse5701

    #8362
    shelldrake
    Participant

    Ok, so I am weak… I bought the rules, and will be reading them over the next few days, and if the stars align, will play a solo game sometime during the week.

     

    I had a quick look over the rules, and see that I can easily use my LRRPs in Vietnam for a game – just use the searching rules for the VC/NVA trying to spot them. I can also get away with using each LRRP as a motivated individual to give me the flexibility of the team if I feel that is the way to go.

     

    Now – I need rules for zombies for some WWW2 action

    #8387
    Ivan Sorensen
    Participant

    Thank you for your purchase 🙂 I hope the game works great for you and holler if there’s anything you’re confused about.

    Nordic Weasel Games
    https://www.wargamevault.com/browse/pub/5701/Nordic-Weasel-Games?src=browse5701

    #8515
    kyoteblue
    Participant

    I’ll write up an AAR as soon as I can get these rules printed out….and find my modern forces.

    #8516
    shelldrake
    Participant

    I will do likewise as I want to test out the rules using my Vietnam war figures.

    #8518
    Ivan Sorensen
    Participant

    Look forward to seeing what you come up with! Let me know if you have any questions.

    Nordic Weasel Games
    https://www.wargamevault.com/browse/pub/5701/Nordic-Weasel-Games?src=browse5701

    #8519
    kyoteblue
    Participant

    All my Vietnam figures are based for FOW and I don’t  want to rebase them  right now..I’m thinking either Cold War goes Hot or Mercenaries V Jihadist in the Sultanate Of Ifat*. Depending on which figures I have and how fast I can base and paint them..

     

    * The Sultanate of Ifat is my Comic opera Imagi-Nation . Think Casablanca meets Monty Python…and Cthulhu …

    #8520
    Ivan Sorensen
    Participant

    Our last game was Armies Army “Rusk” versus WW2 German “insurgents” 🙂

     

    edit: Second to last. Last was west germans vs soviets.

    Now, if Geoff from QRF would get on some East Germans 🙂

     

    Been tempted to get some Australian modern figures from Eureka as near-future troopers. The Steyr assault rifles look nice and futuristic.

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 10 months ago by Ivan Sorensen.

    Nordic Weasel Games
    https://www.wargamevault.com/browse/pub/5701/Nordic-Weasel-Games?src=browse5701

    #8523
    shelldrake
    Participant

    Been tempted to get some Australian modern figures from Eureka as near-future troopers. The Steyr assault rifles look nice and futuristic.

     

    I am tempted myself.  At the moment I want to come up with something new to play the game with for a campaign set in an Imagi-Nation, maybe in Africa, but cant decide if I want to do 20mm or 15mm.

    I am seriously tempted by Elhiem’s 20mm British BAOR range , which look fantastic. Not sure who to put them up against; maybe Russians or Africans from Elhiem, or Mutineer Miniatures Africa Rebels.  I would use RH Miniatures, but they don’t make it easy to order from them.  Regardless, the BAOR figures would be the focal point for the game.

    For 15mm, I looked at QRF, but not enough photos to temp me with the Post War British infantry, and no Africa range to be enemy.  Not sure on Peter Pig – I have some and they are a bit small for my tastes. 15mm would be great for the budget, but need to do more research on what is on the market first.

    The Eureka 15mm Aussies look fantastic – not sure if I could paint them nicely though, and that is despite having the uniform in person to go by. And I would need to think of an enemy to go with them.

    I am really tempted by the BAOR as mentioned, as I love the SLR, and despite the Steyr looks ‘cool’ I prefer 7.62

     

     

     

     

    #8559
    Paul
    Participant

    Shelldrake, if you are going 15mm, Rebel Miniatures has Africans, both regulars and insurgent types. I don’t have any Peter Pig to compare them to, but size wise they seem fine next to my QRF Selous Scouts.

    Those are brave men knocking at our door. Let's go kill them!

    #8562
    Ivan Sorensen
    Participant

    Peter Pig are a tiny bit smaller than QRF from my experience but it’s not terribly noticeable and on a gaming table (particular in opposing forces) no one would notice at all.

    There’s African irregulars in the Command Decision range too but I don’t know if they are any good or not.

     

    It seems at a casual glance, that vehicles are better supported in 15mm, but maybe I just haven’t looked in the right places.

    Nordic Weasel Games
    https://www.wargamevault.com/browse/pub/5701/Nordic-Weasel-Games?src=browse5701

    #8573
    kyoteblue
    Participant

    While I have some PP , I like Rebel Miniatures and QRF much better. And with all the Goodness coming from QRF in a few months, we should have more choices for Infantry .

    #8597
    shelldrake
    Participant

    Thanks for the heads up on the 15mm.

    Having just looked at Rebel Miniatures a bit closer, I see the have Chinese… now I have an enemy in mind for the Eureka Aussies! Plus I could get some Africans to use with the Aussies too.

     

    By getting figures cheaper in 15mm I can potentially have several armies/settings for the price of one…

    #8599
    Ivan Sorensen
    Participant

    I just got my Eureka figures in the mail so figured I’d put in my couple of Danish kroner:

    I have modern figures from Peter Pig, Khurasan, QRF and Eureka at this point.

    Khurasan is the largest of the bunch, though they look decent mixed with QRF and PP (both of which seem  very close to each other in size).

    The Eureka fig’s are wonderful when seen “in real life” BUT they are about a head shorter. Putting a crouching Khurasan russian next to a standing Eureka one and they’re the same size.

     

    That’s not good or bad on either side, some people prefer their 15’s bigger or smaller but it IS worth noting. If they were in opposing forces, I doubt anyone would notice. I’ve seen Rebel scifi figures and they seem about comparable with the Eureka guys.

     

    And I absolutely hear you on 15mm. A full platoon of infantry, 3 APC’s, a tank or two and it’s still in the 50-60 dollar range if you plan things right.

    Nordic Weasel Games
    https://www.wargamevault.com/browse/pub/5701/Nordic-Weasel-Games?src=browse5701

    #8600
    kyoteblue
    Participant

    Hurrah. I had a Computer Pixy help me download the rules and got Staples to print and bind them this afternoon !!!

    Looks like I found my Modern Arabs and Mercenaries so my first game of NEIS will be The Sultanate of Ifat V Jihadist . Over an oil pumping station. In the dark.

    I went from 25mm to 15mm about 30 years ago as I hated the scale creep 25,27,28,30,32mm.

    Now all my terrain and buildings can be used from ancient to modern times  .

    But I’m old and cheap.

    #8601
    Angel Barracks
    Moderator

    And I absolutely hear you on 15mm. A full platoon of infantry, 3 APC’s, a tank or two and it’s still in the 50-60 dollar range if you plan things right

     

     

     

    #8603
    Ivan Sorensen
    Participant

    <div class=”d4p-bbt-quote-title”>Ivan Sorensen wrote:</div>
    And I absolutely hear you on 15mm. A full platoon of infantry, 3 APC’s, a tank or two and it’s still in the 50-60 dollar range if you plan things right

    Hah, I thought you might have something to say about that 🙂

    Don’t worry, there’ll be scifi down the road as well 😉

    Nordic Weasel Games
    https://www.wargamevault.com/browse/pub/5701/Nordic-Weasel-Games?src=browse5701

    #8618
    shelldrake
    Participant

    Khursan – I wanted to check them out yesterday, but the web site is closed… again

     

    But it is open again today!

     

    This opens up even more options in 15mm forces

    #8626
    kyoteblue
    Participant

    Looks like I will need to make an order to Rebel Miniatures, I had some of their masked Gunmen but can’t find them..damn it.

    Wait…wait…found them…so the Retaking of Oil Pumping Station Zebra is back on.

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 10 months ago by kyoteblue.
    #8852
    Ivan Sorensen
    Participant

    A lot of questions have come in, so I figured I’d answer some of the more common or interesting ones.

    General questions about the game:

    What scale of miniatures works best?
    Any scale can work as long as you can identify which figure is which. You need to be able to tell who has the SAW or RPG and who is the squad leader.

    The ranges and whatnot are roughly intended for 10-15mm<i> </i><b> </b>but people tested the rules with 28mm and it worked fine.
    For the big figures, you might want to increase the base movement rate a little.

    How many figures do I need?
    The aim is platoon level gaming, so figure 3 squads of 8 or so miniatures each, plus a few vehicles supporting them if you like.

    We ran tests with a full platoon of 3 squads, 3 APC and a tank on each side and had no problems though pushing above that might get a little busy. You’ll have a lot of leaders to keep track in particular.
    Smaller games could be done easy enough. Take a US infantry squad, treat each 4 man team as its own squad with its own leader and put them up against 15 or so insurgents and you could have a nice little skirmish.

    What size of playing space do I need?
    Not terribly big. 2×2 or 3×3 feet will work fine. Troops should be deployed one or two moves before contact, rather than setting up far from the enemy like you usually do.
    No End In Sight is about the actual fire fight. The entire table is maybe 100-200 yards across.<i></i>

    Supplements, expansions, scifi, bunnies, I want it all!
    Multiple people asked for a hard scifi version almost immediately upon seeing the rules, so I am obliging that.
    I’ll ask for testers once we get closer to having a workable product but it’ll be pretty exciting. It’s still several months away but nothing prevents you from playing some near-future games right now.<i></i>

    Other than that, you guys will have to tell me what you want. WW2 isn’t out of the question and there may very likely be a WW1 variant in the not too distant future. If people want big, long lists of vehicle data, you’ll have to send me some booze.

    Rules questions:

    Vehicles seem very fragile.
    They are. This is intentional.<i> </i><b> </b>On a 3×3 foot table, you are essentially at point blank for vehicles. Even a T55 presents a threat at that range.

    If it still bothers you, bear in mind that we are playing for effect. A “hit” with an anti-tank weapon means you hit the target and inflicted some type of result on them. Missed shots may have scratched the armour with no effect (this is why RPG have a hard time hitting in the game).

    Why don’t insurgents take stress from casualties?
    I wanted insurgents and regular troops to feel different. In many cases, it seems insurgent forces are less likely to cease combat to tend to wounded than trained soldiers are.
    My research indicates that taking multiple wounded will often slow or stop a squad from operating effectively and I wanted the rules to reflect that, so stress builds quickly.

    Insurgents are more likely to leave the wounded to be recovered after the fact. However, to reflect their brittle nature, they have to make a “casualty check” to see if any of them bail when they take losses.<i> </i>
    This means insurgent units can often start big, but if they get hit hard, they will tend to melt away.

    I can’t hit a **** thing!
    Ranged fire won’t inflict a lot of casualties. You have to either get in assault range, severely outgun the enemy or drive them off through suppression.
    This mirrors accounts of fire fights in modern warzones. A platoon can go through a brutal fire fight, get kicked in the teeth and fall back and only have taken 3 or 4 actual casualties.</div>

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 10 months ago by Ivan Sorensen.

    Nordic Weasel Games
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    #8897
    shelldrake
    Participant

    Questions:

    1: From the rule book: “Any given figure may only be activated once per turn. However, a figure can be activated again by another activation roll during the same phase.”

    Does this mean that a figure can only be activated once per turn, unless subordinate commanders also use their activation points on the same figure?

    i.e. I roll a 2 for the Platoon Commander, and he activates two soldiers within command range. I then use the Platoon SGT, who can then use his activation points on one or both of the soldiers activated by the Platoon Commander.

     

    2: do I only use one leader to roll for activation points for the whole turn, or is a turn rolling for activation points for any leader figure in my force?

     

    i.e. do I roll for the Platoon Commander OR the Platoon SGT, or can I roll for the Platoon Commander, Platoon SGT and each of the section/squad commanders?

     

    Thus a phase is the entire activation rolls for a single leader, and a turn is all the leaders in the unit using a phase to roll for activation?

    #8898
    Ivan Sorensen
    Participant

    1: From the rule book: “Any given figure may only be activated once per turn. However, a figure can be activated again by another activation roll during the same phase.”

    Does this mean that a figure can only be activated once per turn, unless subordinate commanders also use their activation points on the same figure?

    i.e. I roll a 2 for the Platoon Commander, and he activates two soldiers within command range. I then use the Platoon SGT, who can then use his activation points on one or both of the soldiers activated by the Platoon Commander.

     

    This probably needs to be cleaned up a little. All it means is that when you activate Sergeant Bob, he can’t activate  soldier John twice on that activation roll.

    But Bob could activate John again the next time he makes an activation roll, and Captain James could activate him a third time (and fourth and so forth)

     

    2: do I only use one leader to roll for activation points for the whole turn, or is a turn rolling for activation points for any leader figure in my force?

    Your turn, you pick one leader to roll for.

    Then I pick one leader to roll for.

    Then you pick one leader to roll for (can be the same guy, can be another guy)

    When every leader has failed their roll (Exhausted) or been voluntarily exhausted, the phase ends.
    Think of it like a “alternating activation” game like Stargrunt, but you can go back to the same leaders again.

    So the turn is you picking one leader and rolling to activate him.
    The phase is when both of us have exhausted every leader we have.

    Make more sense? (I am realizing that most games would use those terms in reverse, so maybe thats where people get confused. The idea is that it’s a “phase” of the overall battle.

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 10 months ago by Ivan Sorensen.

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    #8901
    kyoteblue
    Participant

    Going to be handy having you explain stuff Ivan.

    #8902
    Ivan Sorensen
    Participant

    Going to be handy having you explain stuff Ivan.

     

    The one benefit of me doing this for a living is that I’m never far from my computer 🙂

    If I could figure out my camera, I might try doing a little video or something.

    Nordic Weasel Games
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    #8904
    kyoteblue
    Participant

    Is the internet ready to see you Ivan ???!!!

    #8906
    Ivan Sorensen
    Participant

    A chubby nerd with long hair. I think the ladies will be able to resist

    Nordic Weasel Games
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    #8907
    kyoteblue
    Participant

    I’m old less fat than I was and going bald….

    #8912
    shelldrake
    Participant

    Thanks for the answer to my questions, it clears every thing up

     

    And, yes, I think I was thinking ‘turn’ as per other games, not ‘phase’.

     

    #8996
    Eli Arndt
    Participant

    Read this post….bought the rules.

    Thanks for the explanation.

    -Eli

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 10 months ago by Eli Arndt.

    -Eli

    #8998
    kyoteblue
    Participant

    Excellent!!

    #9000
    Ivan Sorensen
    Participant

    Read this post….bought the rules. Thanks for the explanation. -Eli

     

    Aw, thanks 🙂 Let me know if you have any questions at all.

    Nordic Weasel Games
    https://www.wargamevault.com/browse/pub/5701/Nordic-Weasel-Games?src=browse5701

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