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  • #154416
    Angel Barracks
    Moderator

    Has anyone else noticed a trend within non historical games of late to market rules as suitable for use with any figures?

    It seems odd to me to claim that you can play X rules and not be forced into using X figures, is this not obvious?

    From the early days of GW which are notorious for ignoring other figures outside their own worlds, my mates and I used all sorts of figures, IIRC Grenadier, Ral Partha, Alternative Armies, RAFM, Rackham and many others found their way into my GW Citadel Miniatures armies.
    My mates did not mind as long as the figures were identifiable as what they were meant to be.
    I don’t think I had any official GW hand gunners, but the models I used were troops with handguns, so what else could they be?

    We did the same with 40k, using airfix tanks as stand in land raiders, we kit-bashed turrets and missile pods to add to the basic Rhino’s to make Predators and Whirlwinds.

    As long as each side knew what it was, it did not matter one jot they were not official models.

    Same now in fact with my 10mm Warhammer army, I don’t have a single warmaster model, no-one cares.

    So what is this trend I see of companies saying a great selling point of their own system is the fact you can use any models with the rules?
    You always could…

    Is this aimed at people new to the hobby coming from the complete game in a box types?
    I could possibly understand that if you are into say GW and have not ventured much outside their sphere of influence that the notion you would use WW2 soldiers as Imperial Guard would not have occurred.

    I actually, truth be told find it a bit annoying, those companies that claim their rules can be used with any figures, almost like they are suggesting only their rules allow this.

    My KR16 rules were generic sci-fi rules, you could use any models, my Burning Sands rules are generic, you can use any models even though both games had ‘official’ models.
    But it never occurred to me that this needed saying.

    Anyone else noticed this, thoughts if you have?

    #154418
    Darkest Star Games
    Participant

    To be quite honest, I think sometimes it does.  Every time I release something new there is always a person or two that asks “What rules are these figures for?” or “What rules can I use these with?”  I at first thought that people assumed that the figures and vehicles were associated with a particular set, but now I think there is a segment of gamers out there that seem to want things pre-packaged.  Those boxed sets of starter rules with a couple of figures for each side seem to be very popular…

    "I saw this in a cartoon once, but I'm pretty sure I can do it..."

    #154420
    Sane Max
    Participant

    Well, it’s really just a reaction to a tendency.

    I went into my local games shop. I only do that every couple of years, Brushes are the only thing I won’t buy online really. I think i have told this story before. two people behind the counter, and of course they got chatting. It’s been a while but it went roughly like this.

    ‘What are you painting?’
    ‘Historical Figures’
    ‘Oh I haven’t heard of them., what are the Factions?’
    ‘Um, no – I mean I collect and paint Wargames figures for battles from History’
    (colleague browsing Internet…. ‘Warlord Games?’
    ‘Yes, that’s one of them….’
    ‘Let’s see…. Romans and Vikings? That’s odd isnt it?’
    ‘what? that’s what you get in the box?’
    ‘No, That’s 2 ranges they happen to make… you don’t have to play the games using their figures, or against each other’
    Utter. Blank. Incomprehension.

    You and I will have come to GW already fully aware of having to look round for that figure that’s in the rules but they don’t make, and happy to use the odd Hittite chariot as an Egyptian one, but nowadays, Games come in a box. you play them. if you want to expand on the games you buy the expansion box made by the same people……

    #154421
    John D Salt
    Participant

    It’s entirely crackpot, agreed, but probably a not-very-evitable consequence of the GW authoritarian greedhead marketing model of insisting on “official” models. The same sort of exploitative crackpottery has given us collectible gamelike things with “rares”, and “limited edition” tomfoolery. Perhaps young people these days (furtively checks for kids on the lawn) are gullible enough to fall for this sort of nonsense. It’s never going to work on wrinklebonced greybeards who remember when you could spend a few shillings on a couple of boxes of Airfix infantry, a pack of lichen, some Merit trees, and the world was your lobster, at least, after you had scrounged some empty wheatie boxes to cut up and make your own buildings. And nicked some bits of foam ballast underlay from the Hornby train set to use uʍop ǝpᴉsdn for roads.

    A similar gobbet of imbecility that offends my tired old eyes is the claim that a set of rules can be used with any scale models (yes, I do know people who have done 54mm naval wargaming). Back in the old timey times, before the Dead Sea reported sick, no great mathematical mystery attached to the dark art of embiggening (or contratriwise ensmallening) numbers in proportion to each other, and the skilled number-wrangler could even perform such embiggenment without the assistance of an electronic calculator.

    This latter point is one reason for my very strong preference for rules to give distances in real-world units (metres, paces, cables, whatever is appropriate) instead of in inches or centimetres on the table; the other reason is that, to my ear, shooting at a tank 16 inches away sounds very silly.

    All the best,

    John.

    #154422
    willz
    Participant

    Back in the mists of time pre lockdown Mike when putting on various demo / participation games or visiting shows, very often a fair few number of gamers were surprised that you could use any type of figures / equipment for any wargame.  I have played 40k using none games workshop figures, seen or played Rapid fire using 6mm to 54mm figures.

    When I first started out in wargaming in 1970 there was limited material available at your finger tips, you had to build / paint everything and formulate your own campaign rules also you had to do your own research.  By the 1980’s wargaming started to become a lot more main stream and firms started to produce rules with supplements, wargame rules became packaged and started producing them to go with a certain set of figures.  I suppose Games Workshop / Citadel were one of the first to start it (please correct me if I am wrong), these day if you pick up any of the wargaming magazines or go on line you will find rules with pre selected armies to go with them.  All this had made it easier to get into wargaming or start a new project.  I suppose its a bit of laziness on all our parts are we used to being spoon fed our information but it is easier to find out data these days thanks’ to the internet.

    I think its a fantastic time to be into wargaming, the choice is wonderful, yes its a great idea to be able to buy a set of rules that come with all the building and painting instructions you need and all the figures or equipment.  Also if you want buy some rules and use any figure you want that is the beauty of this hobby the adaptability of it participants.

     

    #154423
    Sane Max
    Participant

    I am unsure that GW deserve all the blame for it. People just weirdly expect that if a Manufacturer offers them, say, a Vacuum Cleaner, they will not have to go shopping around for a Plug, or the attachment for doing the stairs, and they have come to expect that from Wargames too.

    Remember that most wargames started as sets of rules, and often the designer didn’t give a damn if you couldn’t get winged hussars or a Turan – He was just writing the rules. In some respects it’s a plus. There are certainly a lot more nice models out there. Plus, when ‘Vampire Vietnam War’ or ‘Zombies Versus Cthulhu’ stops being trendy there will be some nice stuff in the second hand market.

    I do remember the joy and wonder on the face of a GW fan friend when he discovered Wargames Shows. All the stuff he could get that he had literally never known existed. This was pre-internet ubiquity, would come as a lot less of a surprise now to most GW Fans who know that ‘Other Imperial Guard-like models are available’

    #154424
    willz
    Participant

    With 3d printing advancing, in a few short years will we able able to buy 3d printed  armies with a set of rules and the the world our lobster, come on who would not want to buy your armies on Monday then on Tuesday have both sides on the table for a game.  I love painting figures but I am looking forward to select, click, print, wargame future.

    #154426
    Thomaston
    Participant

    It’s kind of indotrination right?
    A few other game that came to mind, needing specific miniatures are Malifaux, Heavy Gear, Warmachine/Hord, Infinity, and X-wing. These all have stat cards associated with each minis so it’s not just GW as much as I hate them. Then you have collectable miniature games like there used to be, crimson skies, Axis&Allies War at Sea, also have stat cards associated with specific minis. These are all mainstreme games are will probably be the top results for any search for ministure games.

    My personal and uninformed opinon is recently Osprey had been publishing rules, and trying to break into the mainstreme market. I suspect a lot of their target audience are people who had never played miniature game or are new and aren’t aware of different miniature manufacturers yet. Instead of having a list of recommended minis its easier to day use whatever you want and get peopel who already have minis into the rule set as well.

    Tired is enough.
    R-rated narcissism

    #154428
    Sane Max
    Participant

    My personal and uninformed opinon is recently Osprey had been publishing rules, and trying to break into the mainstreme market. I suspect a lot of their target audience are people who had never played miniature game or are new and aren’t aware of different miniature manufacturers yet. Instead of having a list of recommended minis its easier to day use whatever you want and get peopel who already have minis into the rule set as well.

    The only thing spoiling your Theory is that, by far and away, the two most successful of their games both make a HUGE point of being designed quite precisely so you can play them with anything, with no set army lists and no ‘Thou Shalt only Use Our Figures’ nonsense.

    #154432
    Nathaniel Weber
    Participant

    As others have posted, this seems as much the GW/flames of war issue of demanding certain minis as it is the same thing that makes gamers ask “yeah but can I play it with 15mm?” It is still common to see threads titled “Looking for 15mm Napoleonics rules” and similar.

    #154438

    Maybe it’s a way of saying “Don’t worry — when it gets to the point of tournaments, you won’t be kicked out for not having figures only from X* manufacturer”.

     

    * Insert Evil Empire of choice. 😊

    #154462
    Phil Dutré
    Participant

    It’s linked to the shift from the wargamer-tinkerer to the wargamer-consumer that has been playing out over the last decades.

    Tiny Tin Men Blog: http://snv-ttm.blogspot.com/
    Wargaming Mechanics Blog: http://wargaming-mechanics.blogspot.com/

    #154485

    It’s marketing buzzwords.  I see it a lot in the IT world.  I suppose our little hobby is no different.

    “You can use any miniature line” is marketing speak in its truest form.  A grand statement that has little or no value.

    “Any basing system.” is useful.  It lets you know that you can use your WRG bases, 2×2 bases or your singly based models.

    “Innovative game mechanics.” lets me know that you went out of your way to make the game more fiddly.

    “Innovative command and control system” lets me know that you went to great lengths to make it so a player will have a very hard time moving their units.  Often times, it is not command and control but rather a friction generation system based on no real world model.

    “Faction” is an annoying term.   In historical terms you simply collect and paint an army…or two.

    John

    "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."

    --Abraham Lincoln

    #154487
    Shaun Travers
    Participant

    C’mon John, tell us how you really feel 🙂

     

    #154492
    Thuseld
    Participant

    Interesting conversation.

    I go out of my way to avoid any rules that DO NOT state they can be used with any miniatures. I mean, my early days of wargaming in the mid 90s with unpainted Airfix soldiers “pew-pew-pewing” on a pile of books and Meccano boxes was fine, and the only requirement was needing WW2 figures. These days I just want to be able to use my already painted figures.

    I used to play the WotC collectible Star Wars Miniatures game. It was geared towards competitive tournament play, meaning you needed specific miniatures to play, or more importantly the official stat cards with an appropriate stand in. I loved the game and collecting the miniatures. But I swore I would never play a game again that had official miniatures and a tournament style. This is why I reject Star Wars Legion.

    Then there are companies who bring out rules and miniatures, but you don’t *have to* use them – Bolt Action springs to mind. But again, it is a point cost, army building, min-maxing sort of tournament game. Flames of War has official miniatures, but you can use other 15mm figures. You could also play in any other scale but then who will you play with? I purchased Bolt Action a few years back to use my 20mm armies with. But then I realised I was literally the only person I knew who wanted to play it in 20mm. People tend to want to follow what is said.

    Thus, a generic set of rules that allows any scale, any figures works for me. I can make armies and field them both.

    #154493
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    The GW brainwashing of the younger generations of gamers is almost complete…

    F*** ’em, I shall continue to assemble HotT armies from as many manufacturers as possible. The current Greek myth army has figures from 11 different companies 🙂

    "I go online sometimes, but everyone's spelling is really bad. It's... depressing."

    #154494
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    With 3d printing advancing, in a few short years will we able able to buy 3d printed armies with a set of rules and the the world our lobster, come on who would not want to buy your armies on Monday then on Tuesday have both sides on the table for a game. I love painting figures but I am looking forward to select, click, print, wargame future.

     

    If you have the price of a five bedroom house in Middlesboro to splash on the printer.

    And are willing to work nights to get the figures ready.

    "I go online sometimes, but everyone's spelling is really bad. It's... depressing."

    #154501
    willz
    Participant

    With 3d printing advancing, in a few short years will we able able to buy 3d printed armies with a set of rules and the the world our lobster, come on who would not want to buy your armies on Monday then on Tuesday have both sides on the table for a game. I love painting figures but I am looking forward to select, click, print, wargame future.

    If you have the price of a five bedroom house in Middlesboro to splash on the printer. And are willing to work nights to get the figures ready.

    I live in Devon so a 5 bedroom house in Middlesboro will be cheaper than here, so on that premise “Not Conard Sage” the figures will be more affordable.

    I think in a few years high street 3d printing shops will appear so you can have you 3d items printed overnight or days ,thus saving you the cost of buying a 3d printer.  Out of interest how much does a 30mm 3d printed figure cost? and on that how much would 1000 3d printed 30mm figures cost, is it all about the economy of scale.

    #154502
    Patrice
    Participant

    GW probably originated this, but I remark that many historical rulesets produced since a few years (no names…) have the rules and the miniatures embedded together; in some Kickstarters you can’t even buy them separately; many conversations in their FB groups show that most people don’t even think about using other figures (although the question arises from time to time). Some miniatures companies think that having their own special ruleset will help them to sell more miniatures – and it works, apparently.

    Something I always read with mild surprise (although you get used to read it so often) is people writing: “I’m buying miniatures for [name of rules], look at the miniatures I’ve painted for [name of rules]”, etc. Of course you must have an idea of which rules you intend to play often, in case it makes a difference in basing, but there seems to be a strange belief that the miniatures could never be used for anything else or the gaming table would explode or something dreadful would happen – perhaps a fear that the miniatures will feel desperately alone in the universe if they are not strongly tied to one single precise ruleset to rule them in everything they do.

    http://www.argad-bzh.fr/argad/en.html
    https://www.anargader.net/

    #154503
    Sane Max
    Participant

    Shrug, I have seen worse in the opposite direction.

    I once read a complete article in Slingshot. It was three or four pages long. It was about how to get the best out of ARMY ‘A’ in the rules – and it went on and on…. slowly it dawned on me that nowhere in the article, the title or anywhere else in the Magazine was the name of the set of rules in question mentioned. Because there was only one set of Ancient Rules in the late 90’s apparently.

    #154505
    Thuseld
    Participant

    Relatedly, so I have my collection of the now OOP and not “officially” supported Star Wars Miniatures. I have about 2000 of them, they store quite nicely, I have a large selection of interesting characters and generic goons that can be used for pretty much any generic rule set now. So they still see use, but I rarely play with them in an official game.

    #154506
    MartinR
    Participant

    Not much to add to the comments already, lots of manufacturers market stuff as complete packages these days – rules, figures, flags etc, presumably hoping to emulate GW and their ilk in some way. Whatever.  I’ll not be the person to tell someone else they are playing with their toy soldiers the wrong way.

    The only thing I do object to is the increased trend to have to buy stuff in huge packs when I only need e.g. two T-70s, and not five of the things.

    "Mistakes in the initial deployment cannot be rectified" - Helmuth von Moltke

    #154509
    Sane Max
    Participant

    ‘but you need 5 of them to play THE GAME’    Why would you only want 2?

     

    I had someone sound off at me on a painting discussion on t’internet when I said ‘I don’t buy GW paints and brushes anymore, they are overpriced’. He responded by saying if I bought second rate stuff I would get second rate results. Says someone painting their figures with Synthetic Brushes for three times the price?

    #154510
    Steven Francis
    Participant

    I think there are different types of people, some will look and buy into a single ecosystem whole some will dip in and out. Some will look at the pictures in the book and think that is what they need to use. Some will ignore the pictures.

    But as was put it is marketing….to make people feel that the company is inclusive of miniature ranges. I do wonder if it is influenced by both the extent of the range, and the relationship to a tournament scene which is as much a marketing opportunity. You also have the whole what is that issue…stopping for the 10th time to say that the pink ork with horns is a demon of Wessex gets annoying…if you have an army list system it makes sense to have official models.

    I guess there is also the world consistency. If you have a fictional world it does make sense to control the IP you invested time in, and keeping to your minis makes sense.

     

    Bat saying all that…it is a game..fill your boots…and remember that trying Epic 40k with 1:1 scale is a bad idea

    #154512
    Sane Max
    Participant

    . You also have the whole what is that issue…stopping for the 10th time to say that the pink ork with horns is a demon of Wessex gets annoying…

     

    That’s a whole other tin of snakes right there, and a separate discussion.  If you are playing a mate on a regular basis it’s not an issue, against strangers you have to show some consideration (I was at an ancients Tournament where my ‘Late Imperial Roman’ opponent’s entire army was a mixture of Fantasy Figures. EIR Roman Dwarfs as Comitates. (Comes? Comites? Late Roman spearmen anyways). It did make me cringe.

     

    #154513
    Phil Dutré
    Participant

    From a marketing point-of-view, linking rules with specific miniatures is a smart thing to do. It worked well for GW, why not for others?

    It also is connected to the growing trend – and almost a given these days – that rules are centered around “factions”, “warbands”, “armies”, each which their specific mechanics for building a force that is “legal” under the rules. It almost seems as if building the army has become the game, and playing out a battle is almost an afterthought.

    Personally, I’m not that worried about this. I’m old enough by now to look beyond the marketing machines and buy the rules and miniature I want. I don’t really care what wargamers outside my immediate gaming circle prefer to play. Wargaming is very much an indvidual hobby, and everyone has to find their own balance.

    However, what does worry me is that many wargaming rules – because of the above evolutions – tend to become self-referential systems and the link with history becomes weaker. Wargamers no longer play “WW2”, but they play “Bolt Action”, which is different from “Flames of War”. The idea that these rulesets are based on historical events seems a like a weird concept to some. The “Bolt Action history” could be different from the “Flames of War history”. “I like BA because I can field 3 Tigers”, “I prefer FoW because then I can play the Canadians during D-Day.” These are hypothetical and  perhaps silly examples, but perhaps not far from the truth.

    That’s also what I meant with my wargamer-tinkerers vs wargamer-consumers remark before. Back in the day, as a wargamer, you had to build your own game. Mixing and matching rules and miniatures was part of that effort. These days, wargamers are more like consumers – you buy a system that has everything: rules, miniatures, even the dice and scenery. Miniature wargames will become more like boardgames, everything is in a single box. Sure, you can use a meeple or die from one game in another game, but who does that, really?

    Tiny Tin Men Blog: http://snv-ttm.blogspot.com/
    Wargaming Mechanics Blog: http://wargaming-mechanics.blogspot.com/

    #154527
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    I live in Devon so a 5 bedroom house in Middlesboro will be cheaper than here, so on that premise “Not Conard Sage” the figures will be more affordable.

     

    That was kind of my point. Most people could afford a five bedroom house in Middlesboro, but would you want to live in Middlesboro?

     

    My sarcasm seems to be getting too subtle. I knew it would happen 🙁

    "I go online sometimes, but everyone's spelling is really bad. It's... depressing."

    #154529
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    ‘but you need 5 of them to play THE GAME’ Why would you only want 2? I had someone sound off at me on a painting discussion on t’internet when I said ‘I don’t buy GW paints and brushes anymore, they are overpriced’. He responded by saying if I bought second rate stuff I would get second rate results. Says someone painting their figures with Synthetic Brushes for three times the price?

     

    I’ll stick with Vallejo and Series 7.

    "I go online sometimes, but everyone's spelling is really bad. It's... depressing."

    #154531
    Geof Downton
    Participant

    It almost seems as if building the army has become the game, and playing out a battle is almost an afterthought.

    It has always been like that for people like me who are first and foremost modellers, who happen to be interested in (relatively or literally) ancient history rather than railways.

    I might buy models from an Evil Empire, or intended for a particular game, but if I do it’s because I like them. When I play with my little people I’ll use rules that, at least to me, produce the results which (I believe) happened in the ‘real’* world I have modelled.

    *May be someone else’s fiction, rather than objectively real.

    …and I always use synthetic brushes, coz I’m a veggie

    One who puts on his armour should not boast like one who takes it off.
    Ahab, King of Israel; 1 Kings 20:11

    #154532
    willz
    Participant

    I live in Devon so a 5 bedroom house in Middlesboro will be cheaper than here, so on that premise “Not Conard Sage” the figures will be more affordable.

    That was kind of my point. Most people could afford a five bedroom house in Middlesboro, but would you want to live in Middlesboro? My sarcasm seems to be getting too subtle. I knew it would happen 🙁

    I got your point and as my Wife wants to live in a bungalow that I could not afford in Devon but I could buy a street in Middlesboro, however she wants to live in Devon.  So keep painting the toys and happy wargaming.

    #154535
    Patrice
    Participant

    Miniature wargames will become more like boardgames

    That’s what I was thinking, and not only because they often sell rules and figures together now, there’s also an obvious boardgame-inspired trend in many miniature wargame mechanics now… And yes, boardgames are more and more popular, since a few years there are boardgames clubs in every small town around here (although obviously not working now because of the sanitary situation, but still waiting to re-open). Not so long ago, adults playing boardgames seemed a bit ridiculous… but then there was more and more of them, at first with the excuse of coming with their children etc. but in fact it’s an accepted adult hobby now (and that’s quite a new idea around here). So it’s not surprising there is a strong influence. I’ve been invited to do miniature skirmish demos in such boardgame clubs near my home, that would not have happened if they had not been created.

    It almost seems as if building the army has become the game, and playing out a battle is almost an afterthought.

    It has always been like that for people like me who are first and foremost modellers, who happen to be interested in (relatively or literally) ancient history rather than railways.

    Yes but the (rather new) fact is that building armies is no more related to history research and adapting them to WRG or whatever old army lists, but just about what the rules say. Have a look at a well-known WW2 FB group (which is very interesting on other matters, that’s why I’m still a member, not criticising…) many questions are “how can I fight a sniper who kills my MMG crew”, “what are the most useful …xxx… for budget points”  etc. and the wanted answer is not historical, often it’s only from a rules efficacity point of view.

    http://www.argad-bzh.fr/argad/en.html
    https://www.anargader.net/

    #154539
    Geof Downton
    Participant

    Yes but the (rather new) fact is that building armies is no more related to history research and adapting them to WRG or whatever old army lists, but just about what the rules say.

    Not so new really. I played against people like that in the late Eighties and early Nineties. They are entirely responsible for my avoidance of competitions since then, and are probably the reason that I tend to describe myself as a modeller rather than a wargamer.

    One who puts on his armour should not boast like one who takes it off.
    Ahab, King of Israel; 1 Kings 20:11

    #154541

    C’mon John, tell us how you really feel 🙂

    I’M JUST GETTING STARTED!  😀

    John

    "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."

    --Abraham Lincoln

    #154555
    Sane Max
    Participant

    I have to confess on one or two occasions I have bought armies because I thought they were cool and then researched them afterwards. I justify it as ‘I would not have learned about the difference between the armies of the Early Assyrian Empire and the Late Assyrian Empire If I had not bought all of these Hupshu by mistake’, so it’s a spur to learning, a bit like watching a bad historical movie and going off to discover the truth.

     

     

     

     

    #154556
    Mike
    Keymaster

    a bit like watching a bad historical movie and going off to discover the truth

    Glad that Fury did not require this approach.

    😀

    😀

    #154632
    Paint it Pink
    Participant

    It’s complicated…

    But there again I always say it’s complicated… mostly because it is, human beings are complicated due to taste (the things they like versus the things they don’t like).

    Factors to be considered where taste is involved is what pleases you? One thing a  lot of wargamers have in common is having the figures all the same size, otherwise why have all the different figure sizes if one could just mix them all up ad hoc like?

    With that comes proportions, manufacturer A makes figures of X size, but manufacturer B’s figures in X size don’t match (insert reason of choice: too tall; too skinny; big heads; chunky proportions etc.).

    Another factor to consider is historical versus SF&F; especially SF because unlike Fantasy that shares some assumption (though not all), SF worlds can vary from space opera (fantasy dressed up as SF) to hard core five minutes from now near future warfare.

    Thus I can optimistically conclude we live in the best of possible worlds because of choice etc, while at the same time pessimistically conclude we live in the best of all possible worlds because of choice.

    One is good, more is better
    http://panther6actual.blogspot.co.uk/
    http://ashleyrpollard.blogspot.co.uk/

    #154639
    Geof Downton
    Participant

    With that comes proportions, manufacturer A makes figures of X size, but manufacturer B’s figures in X size don’t match (insert reason of choice: too tall; too skinny; big heads; chunky proportions etc.).

    I like that variation, with a few exceptions they’re rather like real people,  some of us are tall, others are thin, and some of us have big heads AND chunky proportions…

    One who puts on his armour should not boast like one who takes it off.
    Ahab, King of Israel; 1 Kings 20:11

    #156119
    Stephen Holmes
    Participant

    The marketing model of starter packs and expansion boxes is fairly well established now.

    Players below a certain age are likely to consider this the default method to consume the hobby.

    Meanwhile plenty of independent rule authors, figure manufacturers, and companies that provide rules and figures continue succeeding with their buy what you want, from whom you want approach.

    #156122
    Norm S
    Participant

    It strikes me that we are talking about a hobby that some of us have known for 40 to 50 years and more, we should not be surprised that things change over that time and will keep on changing.

    The two important things to me are (1) that my own wargaming retains all the aspects that I enjoy …. And it does, regardless of what is going on around me, so why should I care what every one else is playing / doing. (2) that this wonderful hobby stays fresh, popular and relevant to a new generation of gamers so that wargaming has a future and I think it is doing that and always will one way or another, because it is at that end (the gateway) that the more dynamic aspects of the hobby will keep evolving to meet the needs and expectations of the generation that is spending into and growing the hobby.

    So the message ‘you can use any figure … or any scale’ is not the wrong message, it is just not relevant to all gamers, in particular in this instance, the ones who have been around for a while. To those that it is relevant to, then it is relevant.

    List of tiresome things that the young end get for inspiration from the old guard;

    I hate these new full colour all encompassing rule books (for thirty quid), whatever happened to the good old crappy black and white sets done on a type-writer with a sugar paper type cover on it adorned with a sketch of some sort … they only cost £2.75, we are getting ripped off I tell yer!

    Army, Army, call that an army!, why I remember when an army was at least 500 figures per side. I wouldn’t get out of bed for a game that had less than 1000 figures on the table … lazy so and so’s.

    Research that’s what I did, proper research, hour and hours trying to get the right books and working it out for myself, these people getting everything in one package don’t know they are born, don’t know I say! If you haven’t got a copy of Armies of the Dark Ages by Ian Heath on your shelves that you read before bedtime to knock yourself out, then you’re not a proper wargamer.

    40 years, 40 years it’s taken me to get this collection going, a bit here and bit there, not everything all in a box that can be fully done and on the table in 4 – 6 months and be giving some brilliant games …. I mean where is the fun in that!

    P.S. just a bit of fun if anyone is offended!

    #156148
    Stephen Holmes
    Participant

    A bit of fun, and very funny too.

    I recognised several opponents, but mainly myself.

    But that’s cos we old-uns have achieved self awareness; not like them young-uns with their portable telephones and their tik-toks…… (Nuuuurse, he’s up again).

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