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  • #194364
    Avatar photoAngel Barracks
    Moderator

    I do wish companies would stop tyring to rebrand everything, the hobby (the actual hobby not GW, sorry Warhammer’s, The Hobby TM,) has no consistency as it is.
    One companies 10mm is another’s 12mm, one companies 25mm is 32mm, or heroic 28mm as some would call it.
    One companies Brigade level game is another companies Division level game.
    One companies skirmish game is another persons Role Playing Game.

    It is already hard enough to understand what people mean when they use certain terminology, then this comes along…

    TF is a Wargamer: Character sized brush?

    0000, 00, 1, 2, 30?

    I know why they do this, the companies in question want to create a fanatical customer base that does not look at the wider hobby and is indoctrinated into their corporate version of the hobby with all the corporate brands and buzzwords and believes there is only one way to hobby and in fact there is nothing out there outside their own marketing.

    I want to die.

    #194366
    Avatar photoRussell Phillips
    Participant

    Hard agree. I’m old enough to remember GW’s “epic” ranges, which were roughly 6mm.

    When “epic” scale stuff started being advertised it took me a while to realise it was far from 6mm. I’m still not entirely sure what scale the new epic is 🙁

    Military history author
    Website : Mastodon : Facebook

    #194367
    Avatar photoMike
    Keymaster

    When “epic” scale stuff started being advertised it took me a while to realise it was far from 6mm. I’m still not entirely sure what scale the new epic is

    Indeed, I had a moan on here about it, because to quite possibly hundreds of thousands of people epic scale is 6mm, as first coined by GW decades ago.
    I think the new ‘epic scale’ is 9mm?

    #194375
    Avatar photoAndrew Beasley
    Participant

    …TF is a Wargamer: Character sized brush? 0000, 00, 1, 2, 30?…

    Yes – it all depends on how big a ‘Character’ is 🙂 Stupid idea unless you have a shop nearby where you can go and see the brush.

    Maybe it’s the ‘Last Paintbrush you ever need to buy’? It is a fine point for 28+, general for 15s and do-it-in-one for 6mm (or reverse depending on how you feel)???

    Question I have – can it be used for scenery or do I need a different brush for crates / door frames etc???

    One of the most frustrating thing about IT and it now seams wargames is summed up by a simple comic strip (thanks to XKCD):

    I can cope with building and ground scale being different but it does bug me when I end up with some really small figures despite them being the same size / scale (and yes I know folk are not the same size) with a 1/3rd to 1/5th difference they do not fit (even in different units).

    Ogre is driving me potty over this ‘mixed size’ as the human infantry are a different ‘scale’ to the vehicles (OK they are in ‘battlesuit’ space armour but even so)! SJG designed the original game to allow 3 units of infantry to stack in one hex and reduce in number through ‘splitting units up’ or damage and decided to keep this process in the plastic figures by letting you pull the figures out of the round carrier base. This meant the humans had to be large enough for you to get hold of and are way way over sized!

    Maybe its a sign of age but going back to my youth and only using Minifigs and their fantasy figures looks really good right now – oh no the LoTR figures differed from the D&D and the Aureola Rococo and VFW (arrrggghhhh).

    I just wish manufactures would show a picture with a scale ruler next to them – even a 5mm grid behind would help!

    Lots of 3D printers on Etsy let you select the size (25/28/32 or standard and heroic) BUT that just makes it worse – is your 28 my heroic, is it 25mm from the base top, head or eyes or what…

    You may not have seen the Mantic statement:

    Epic Warpath is an epic-scale game. This hobby term, also found in historical miniature games, simply means ‘smaller than 28mm’. But let’s be a little more precise!

    As discussed previously, our Enforcer Operative models are about 12mm to the top of the head, so about 11m to the eye. A ‘normal’ human would be about 10mm to the eye. So while there is some variation, EPIC WARPATH can be treated as being 10-12mm scale for purposes of modelling and terrain.

    WHAT THE *******!

    • 10-12mm is a size not a scale.
    • 10-12mm is a big difference at this size.
    • Your bases are 2 / 3mm thick (when on the sabot) – are you including these or not?

    Their idea of ‘precise’ and mine differs (possible by 5mm).

    Time to give up internet shopping and visit the local games store / show with a figure in your pocket and check it out yourself folks.

     

    #194385
    Avatar photoMcKinstry
    Participant

    I agree but I suspect the marketing contest for a finite pool of dollars will not provide relief and may yield much more irritating silliness is in the future. Is 32mm headed to 35-36mm whilst claiming compatibility to 25-28? I fear the whole “6-10mm” world may end up completely confused in a dogpile that land between 5mm and 12mm. Even ships suffer from this as a 1/2400 Tumbling Dice Napoleonic sail (my favorite)is different from a 1/2400 Hallmark and a 1/2400 Old Glory.

    The tree of Life is self pruning.

    #194391
    Avatar photoLes Hammond
    Participant

    When I bought my first Heroics & Ros, nobody I knew called it “6mil” it was referred to as “300th scale”.

    I assumed ‘Epic’ (when it started getting bandied about) was manufacturer-speak for “our models aren’t actually the size you think they are. We made them a bit bigger because we think they look more impressive that way”.

    New terminology is invented so that the easily led can think they are on the newest bandwagon and the inventors can believe they are at the cutting edge.

    Harrumph!

    6mm France 1940

    http://les1940.blogspot.co.uk/
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/386297688467965/

    #194398
    Avatar photoMike Headden
    Participant

    Scale creep being what it is, I suspect if I can avoid shuffling off this mortal coil for a few more years wargaming will have returned to what it was when I started …. firing matchsticks at 54mm figures!

    Of course every manufacturer will use different sized, proprietary, branded matchsticks! 🙂

    I look forward to arguments over lead matchsticks compared to 3D printed matchsticks versus bio-degradable wooden matchsticks. </s>

    There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

    #194399
    Avatar photoNot Connard Sage
    Participant

    Seriously?  Egregious size differences within the same nominal ‘scale’ are a problem that’s at least been around since I started playing fancy games with toy soldiers (1970. Yes, I know. Sod off).

    Some will say that people are different sizes, and they are correct. Apart from perhaps pole weapons their weapons very much aren’t different sizes, especially when mass production happens. Ivan’s Ak47 is not bigger than Vlad’s, no matter how much one tries to rationalise it.

    As it goes, the first 1/300 figures (Navwar) were 5mm. Not 6mm, and they were an absolute bugger to paint.

    And don’t get me started on feckin’ “factions”. I don’t have a French faction, what I have are French WSS figures organised for my favourite rules.

    Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

    #194400
    Avatar photoMike
    Keymaster

    And don’t get me started on feckin’ “factions”

     

    😀  😀

    This too.

    #194401
    Avatar photowillz
    Participant

    Hmmmmmm you could argue we have an image problem with our hobby but paint brushes for painting characters???????  That is just plain weird😄.

    #194407
    Avatar photoOotKust
    Participant

    I resisted looking… i won’t disagree,…. glad I didn’t start it!

    Yes I spotted the ‘paint brush anomalous’ curiosities when more core 20 year olds wore out… the AP ones ARE quite well constructed and keep their form! Unlike venerable W&N which I had bought in last 3 years, are just Ch** crap- sad way for a business to lower itself!

    Non specific sizing and ‘mixed’ batches that could be anything… but useful, no, as Guy Andrew writes.

    Scales/ sizes… ahem, per NCS… back to morning coffee since theres no gaming going on…
    cheers chaps d

    #194408
    Avatar photoTony Hughes
    Participant

    I don’t remember Navwar doing 5mm (1/300th) figures. Leicester micromodels (late 1970 or early 71 I think) were the first ‘6mm’ or 1/300th that I can recall but they only did vehicles. A bit later Heroics & Ros came along and later still they got called 5mm because others had changed how ‘size’ was measured.

    W&N Series 7 & S7 miniature are my go to small brushes. I agree that the quality has gone down since the original sources dried up but, having tried a number of manufacturers, I still can’t find anything to match even their current quality. Modern sable hair is too brittle in all brands, even treating bristles with Lanolin ( a trick learned from my signwriter father) failed to improve them.

    I haven’t tried any GW brushes recently but one I was given many moons ago proved to be of such poor quality it went in the bin. I’d imagine they have improved their quality since then but I have tried some of the ‘model’ brands and they have all been very poor.

     

    #194411
    Avatar photoMike Headden
    Participant

    My first non-1/72nd scale figures were the Minifigs Napoleonic 5mm blocks, bought back in the 70’s.

    There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

    #194412
    Avatar photoAlbert of Winterpig
    Participant

    EPIC, (original) 5mm infantry with 1/200th vehicles.

     

    new epic, nothing that matches anything else deliberately.

     

    standard 40k, (before the new megamrines things) were 32mm infantry, 1/48th vehicles all carrying 1/25th sized weapons.

    #194414
    Avatar photoNot Connard Sage
    Participant

    Yeah, I meant H&R not Navwar.

     

    It’s an age thing…

    Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

    #194415
    Avatar photoSane Max
    Participant

    The increasing trend for manufacturers to want to sell people a boxed game with both sides in so there’s no need for customers to look elsewhere is not all bad… it’s nice to be able to buy and play something without having to scrap around for models.*

    And I have always wondered how much of scale creep is not down to moustache-twirling business owners seeking monopolies. No one is suggesting 1/72 placky figure makers are up to such shenanigans, but wacko size variations between figures from the same Manufacturer still abound. It’s just laziness and carelessness I think.

    GW of course is the exception, top hatted Moustache Twirling baddies tying maidens to train-tracks the lot of them 🙂

    *A Guy in a Games shop asked me what I was painting. I said ‘Historicals’ and he went ‘Not heard of them, what do they make?’ His manager said “no, stuff like this” (pointing to the Warlord Games Website) “Vikings and Romans??? that’s an odd choice for the factions!’ …… Stranger in a Strange Land

    #194427
    Avatar photoNot Connard Sage
    Participant

    His manager said “no, stuff like this” (pointing to the Warlord Games Website) “Vikings and Romans??? that’s an odd choice for the factions!’ …… Stranger in a Strange Land

    Arrrrrgggggghhhhhhhh stoppit.

    I agree about scale creep being down to incompetence rather than malevolent intent though. Hanlon’s Razor and all that.

     

    Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

    #194432
    Avatar photoGuy Farrish
    Participant

    Scale creep- yeah – more the ‘I want to see the plaque on the giberne’ rather than an evil plan.

    However – picking 13.5mm (as a random example) as a size for multiple ranges instead of existing and heavily invested in 10/12mm or 15mm, smacks not a little of moustache twirling megalomania to me.

    Must be something in the water around Nottingham.

     

    #194438
    Avatar photoJim Webster
    Participant

    As a mate of mine commented, one advantage of scale creep, in a few years rather than painting space marines, you’re just dress them in your children’s hand-me-downs 😉

    https://jimssfnovelsandwargamerules.wordpress.com/

    #194518
    Avatar photobobm
    Participant

    Now that so many ranges are being designed on computers (metal, resin and plastic) I’m wondering if the “accidental” scale creep will disappear.

    I agree its been around a long time…Minifigs 25mm were never the same size as Hinchliffe’s…and Hinchliffe’s figures got bigger in newer ranges.

    There's 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.....

    #194527
    Avatar photoDarkest Star Games
    Participant

    Now that so many ranges are being designed on computers (metal, resin and plastic) I’m wondering if the “accidental” scale creep will disappear.

      I seriously doubt it as it will be the same reasoning that has been used in hand sculpting for years: “that’s just my style”.  It’s why we have some slim 20mm (like the old SHQ) and some chunky 20mm (like Britannia) as different artist have different visions of what ‘character’ means for their designs.

    Now, if all digital sculptors used the same basic dolly to start their figures from, there might be able to be some consistency, but then you’d hear complaints about sculptors not able to make things look different enough so how could 2 different companies make, say, WW2 Germans as they’ll look identical? Also, to some people realistic proportions look quite off on minis so some customers would want bigger heads so they’re easier to paint, some would want bigger hands to you could see rings on fingers or joints on plate gauntlets and the like.

    This issue has long cracked me up because you don’t see this issue with model railroad or plastic model figures, at least not often.  I mean, a Tamiya 1/48 scale US tank commander model figure matches in size to a Hobby Boss 1/48 scale German tank commander, and Walters HO figure will match size and proportion with a Preiser HO figure.  Miniature makes just like to be different I guess!

    "I saw this in a cartoon once, but I'm pretty sure I can do it..."

    #194528
    Avatar photoMike
    Keymaster

    Scale Models vs Toy Soldiers innit.

    #194532
    Avatar photoNot Connard Sage
    Participant

    This issue has long cracked me up because you don’t see this issue with model railroad or plastic model figures, at least not often.

     

    Er, no. Inaccuracies of scale have long been a moan among railway modellers.

    Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

    #194543
    Avatar photomadman
    Participant

    This issue has long cracked me up because you don’t see this issue with model railroad or plastic model figures, at least not often.

    Er, no. Inaccuracies of scale have long been a moan among railway modellers.

    Oh, of course not HO gauge track but OO gauge trains and terrain riding on it! Lionel O gauge vs 1:48. On30 so you can buy HO track and build at (about) 1:48. It has been around and model railroaders are rife with it!

    #194548
    Avatar photoAndrew Beasley
    Participant

    …Er, no. Inaccuracies of scale have long been a moan among railway modellers.

    So true – I once looked at 2mm and saw that they published a table to try and explain the differences (https://www.2mm.org.uk/standards/basicstd.htm) and ran a mile to generic ‘N’ gauge 🙂

    #194550
    Avatar photoGuy Farrish
    Participant

    Used to to do some 009 narrow gauge modelling -still got some somewhere – and always fancied 00N3 using TT gauge track with OO buildings, figures etc for 3ft narrow gauge prototype but decided life was too short. Probably one of the wisest moves in my entire life.

    I loved the search for accuracy among the 4mm crowd. The EM Society split from the OO mainstream to get a tru(er) scale to produce 4’8 1/2″prototype track using 4mm to 1ft (does anyone wonder why we used a metric to imperial ratio?) using 18mm wide tracks instead of the commercially available 16.5mm – only to find they split into the more precise 18.2mm gauge crowd and then the P4 standard using 18.83mm.

    Wargamers? Bloody amateurs!

    #194578
    Avatar photoSane Max
    Participant

    This issue has long cracked me up because you don’t see this issue with model railroad or plastic model figures, at least not often.

    on the plastic toys side, as a collector I can tell you the scale differences are frequent and often laughable in 1/76 and 1/72. Onagers the size of Carthorses. Sea People who could topple the Egyptian Pharaoh and sow Chaos across the med, if only they were not apparently all 4 feet tall. It’s everywhere, trust me.

    #194582
    Avatar photoPatrice
    Participant

    Maybe its a sign of age but going back to my youth

    Going back to my youth, the Airfix Napoleonic British Hussars were much larger than the Airfix Napoleonic French Cuirassiers and it was the same company. 😉

    And don’t get me started on feckin’ “factions”.

    Excellent! 😉

    Some years ago I had to search the meaning of the word “posse”. It’s an educational hobby.

    http://www.argad-bzh.fr/argad/en.html
    https://www.anargader.net/

    #194583
    Avatar photoMike
    Keymaster

    Some years ago I had to search the meaning of the word “posse”. It’s an educational hobby.

    Medieval term iirc?

    #194584
    Avatar photoPatrice
    Participant

    Some years ago I had to search the meaning of the word “posse”. It’s an educational hobby.

    Medieval term iirc?

    Yes, from latin, curiously it was kept in English but not in French.

    http://www.argad-bzh.fr/argad/en.html
    https://www.anargader.net/

    #194597
    Avatar photoDarkest Star Games
    Participant

    I guess this all goes to show we are just bonkers in the end, and scale is truly in the eyes of the beholder manufacturer.

    "I saw this in a cartoon once, but I'm pretty sure I can do it..."

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