Home Forums WWII Organisation of Pz III and IVs in Panzer Regiments?

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  • #3941
    Sparker
    Participant

    Dear All,

    I have been wondering about the use of Pz III and Pz IVs in German Panzer Divisions in 1943. Specifically for the Kursk operation, but I guess the question has wider application. I have been looking on t’interweb thingy but without much luck – very few orbats go down to individual AFV type.

    So my question is, would a Panzer Regiment’ 2 constituent Battalions have operated a mix of III and IV’s? Or would the presumably smaller number of IIIs been concentrated into just the one battalion? How about Company organisation – would companies been made up entirely of IIIs or IVs?

    Presumably at Zug level they would all have been of the same type to ease logistics and maintenance considerations as much as possible. (Although I do appreciate there was a good deal of interchangeability, but of course the main armament was completely different.)

    If anyone can point me to a source I’d be very grateful – thanks!

    http://sparkerswargames.blogspot.com.au/
    'Blessed are the peacekeepers, for they shall need to be well 'ard'
    Matthew 5:9

    #3955
    NTM
    Participant

    I’ve tried without much luck to find the same info for the units on Sicily. Overall totals are relatively easy to find but breakdown at battalion and company have so far proved elusive.

    #3960

    I would presume that it would be similar to the earlier mix with tanks concentrated by type into companies (presumably to ease the resupply of ammunition and spares) and types of companies divided as equally as possible between battalions. Certainly, all of the orbats I’ve seen showing the composition of two battalion regiments show the breakdown of one battalion and a note saying ‘same as other battalion’ on the other. Unfortunately the latest I have is for May 42, and for the desert at that.

    Having said that, earlier in the war (DAK 41), when the mix was Mk IIs, IIIs & IVs all of the III and IV companies had a platoon of Mk IIs. As soon as the IIs were lost (they were not replaced) they became companies solely of either IIIs or IVs mixed two to one in each battalion. The IIs, BTW, were used to screen flanks whilst they lasted (not long).

    However it was done, from earlier form, it is probable that both battalions would be relatively equal in hitting power.

    It’s not what you want, but I hope it helps.

    My whoring and daubing:
    http://olicanalad.blogspot.co.uk/

    #4096
    piers brand
    Participant

    Sparker,

     

    Which unit at Kursk you looking for info on?

    #4222
    quidveritas
    Participant

    The short answer is “it depends”.   On the year and in some cases, the theater.  SS outfits and Elite outfits like Gross Deutschland and Lehr often had unique organizations for reasons I will not discuss here.

    Parts and maintenance and repair issues often dictated that units be homogenous.  (two types of tanks literally doubles the inventory of spare parts needed).

    The 1940 Tank Division actually had 4 different TO&E !

    The 41 Tank Division had one tank regiment of three battalions.  (African units had two battalions).  Each battalion consisted of three companies of 22 tanks (2 Pz III and one Pz IV).  Each company was entirely Pz III or Pz IV.  Hard to tell how they were actually employed.  You can find some interesting accounts that make you wonder what was going on  — I suspect the regimental/battalion CO had great latitude.

    The next big armored division shake-up took place in June of 44 (officially).  Panzer III’s long gone by then.

     

    Hope that helps.

     

     

     

    #4326
    Allen Curtis
    Participant

    “I have been wondering about the use of Pz III and Pz IVs in German Panzer Divisions in 1943. Specifically for the Kursk operation…”

    Sorry you haven’t had more useful answers.  Earlier unit composition isn’t particularly helpful for Kursk, except to note that companies were typically homogeneous–by mark, not necessarily by variant.  Do you have access to a copy of the second volume Jentz’s Panzertruppen?  I’ll see if I can summarize.

    The most typical Heer structure probably was two battalions, each with a headquarters and one medium company equipped with Pz IV, and two (or three) light companies equipped with Pz III.  Medium companies that were short Pz IVs were occasionally filled out with a platoon of Pz III.  Light company structure, as mentioned, could be all of one variant or include mixed variants.  Any remaining Pz II would typically be a platoon in the regimental headquarters.  In some cases, a Pz III Flamm platoon was attached to one or more battalions.

    There were exceptions: for example Pz Regt Grossdeutchland, with one battalion of Pz IV, a second battalion mixed as above, and a heavy company of Tiger Ia.

    Confusing?  It is to me…  And that’s without getting into the Panther-equipped battalions!

    Allen

    #4515
    Sparker
    Participant

    Thanks so much for all of your responses. I think Allen’s summary is as good a summary as I’ll find. Thanks mate!

    http://sparkerswargames.blogspot.com.au/
    'Blessed are the peacekeepers, for they shall need to be well 'ard'
    Matthew 5:9

    #4518
    Allen Curtis
    Participant

    No problem, Sparker.  That’s the best I can come up with!

    Allen

    #4695
    Allen Curtis
    Participant

    Ah!  A gentleman on the other forum seems to be trying to answer your question:

    http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=356365

    Allen

    #4719
    Edward Sturges
    Participant

    Greetings

    For some reason yesterday I couldn’t post using an iPad so resorted to TMP as indicated above.  Reported below as it’s my own post.

    “A question was asked on another site that I can’t for some reason post on about the company allocation of Panzer III and IV in 1943.

    I don’t have a full picture but Didier Lodieu’s III Pz Korps at Kursk has some data:

    Pz-Div.6: II/Pz-Rgt.11 (I/ was in Germany re equipping)
    HQ: 6 Pz II, 7 Pz III lg, 8 Pz III(75)
    5.kp: 4 Pz III(75), 10 Pz III lg, 6 Pz IV lg
    6.kp: 4 Pz III(75), 8 Pz III lg, 7 Pz IV lg
    7.kp: 4 Pz III(75), 7 Pz III lg, 8 Pz IV lg
    8.kp: 3 Pz III(75), 9 Pz III lg, 8 Pz IV lg + (att?) 13 flammpanzers

    Pz-Div.7: Pz-Rgt.25
    Stab: 3 PzBef, 4 Pz II
    I/Pz-Rgt.25
    HQ: 2 PzBef, 4 Pz II
    1 kp: 2 Pz IV, 13 Pz III
    2.kp: 2 Pz IV, 14 Pz III
    3.kp: 15 Pz IV
    II/Pz-Rgt.25
    HQ: 2 PzBef, 4 Pz II
    4.kp: 2 Pz IV, 14 Pz III
    5.kp: 2 Pz IV, 14 Pz III
    6.kp: 15 Pz IV

    Pz-Div.19: Pz-Rgt.27
    Stab: 2 PzBef, 1 Pz III lg
    I/Pz-Rgt.27
    HQ: 1 Pz III lg, 1 Pz III kz, 1 Pz III(75)
    1 kp: 5 Pz III lg, 3 Pz III(75)
    2.kp: 5 Pz III lg, 3 Pz III(75)
    3.kp: 9 Pz IV lg
    4.kp: 9 Pz IV lg, 2 Pz IV kz
    II/Pz-Rgt.27
    HQ: 2 PzBef, 5 Pz III lg, 1 Pz III kz
    5.kp: 5 Pz III lg, 3 Pz III(75)
    6.kp: 9 Pz IV lg
    7.kp: 9 Pz IV lg

    Note that I haven’t corroborated the totals and some of the allocations e.g. Pz-Div.6 I/Pz-Rgt.11 HQ look odd.

    Anyway, the net result is consistently inconsistent.

    Note that Jentz’s Panzertruppen vol 2 gives an allocation for Pz-Rgt.11 in April 1943 down to platoon (zug).”

    Regards

    Edward

    #4732
    Sparker
    Participant

    Thank you so much Edward that’s exactly the info I was looking for! I think its a fair assumption that other Pz Divs had mixed companies in the same way.

    Much appreciated mate!

    http://sparkerswargames.blogspot.com.au/
    'Blessed are the peacekeepers, for they shall need to be well 'ard'
    Matthew 5:9

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