Origins and Facts

[OotKust]

In following PL Dawsons ‘exposé ‘ of how ‘loose’ our knowledge and the information presented to public by a hundred years of (Victorian age) disinformation is, this source seems eminently provocative.

Model makers seem to have copied from these republished artworks, which as in this case we find fault. Monsieur de Marbot (the artist, NOT the memoirist) painted, engraved and like Knötel (dJ) took a laissez-faire approach.

https://geheugen.delpher.nl/en/geheugen/view/garde-imp-riale-giment-grenadiers-cheval-grenadier-grande-tenue-timbalier-david-gustave?query=%28cql.serverChoice+all+Marbot+AND+A.+AND+de%29+AND+%28isPartOf+any+%22LEMU01%22+%29&page=3&maxperpage=36&coll=ngvn&facets%5BcollectionStringEN%5D%5B%5D=Military+Life&identifier=LEMU01%3A00112085-079

My erstwhile minifigs, duly painted in 1970s but now receiving a revamp and ‘modernisation’ , shall have the incorrect cords removed from the front of the bearskin- so apart from changing ‘the look’ less work than converting same figures to ‘Carabinier’- same issue cords, remove aiguilettes and add epaulettes to all.

But PLDs work is a disruptor, no doubt, and I can’t help but admire his tenacity. I’ve read there’s a reason for his somewhat short wording sometimes, and he certainly doesn’t deserve the hate that has come his way.

I was skeptical at first, reading snippets of his work, but in the end I bought both his ‘Garde’ books- who knew that this regiment along actually used dark yellow wool lace and not 100% aurore, umm, as depicted!

I don’t need all his volumes- but certainly his new works on the early Empire will attract me. Later period, no I’ll do without.

cheers d

[Not Connard Sage]

Sigh, this again.

Uniformology is not of any value to historiography or history. Period.

Knowing the facing colour of the 232nd Foot and Mouth at Waterloo does not inform why or how the battle was won or lost.

It is, at best, a curiosity that entertains the dilettante. That contemporary records of uniform details are scarce before the latter half of the 19th century say all that is needed about the subject – it wasn’t that important at the time.

The true historical researcher, after wading through reams of dusty papers written in archaic French, or German, or whatever, in an obscure archive might happen across an order for “deux cents rouleaux de drap bleu” or “fünfhundert Fuß weißer Spitze”. Shrug, so what? A footnote at best.

You may point to uniforms, or parts thereof, preserved in museums. I’m afraid time has wrought its weary hands over them, and what you see now is probably unlikely to be what you saw then.

And what hue is aurore anyway?

 

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[General Slade]

Not Connard Sage wrote:

And what hue is aurore anyway?

That’s an easy one.  It’s Vallejo German Orange:

[Tony Hughes]

Paint in 3mm and the problem almost disappears.

Got to say that I can understand D’s fixation to some extent as I am loathe to design and supply flags that I can’t get good source info. for. The problem is that, sometimes, an informed guess is the best you can do as reliable info isn’t accessible or simply doesn’t exist. Napoleonic period stuff is less of a problem than many other periods but there are still gaps. Always say that a design is conjectural though – which is what many authors & illustrators fail to do.

Tony of TTT

 

[OotKust]

Not Connard Sage wrote:

And what hue is aurore anyway?

Colloquially- sunrise orange.

http://pourpre.com/fr/dictionnaire/file/aurore

Most often quoted in Brit as salmon-pink, yet is nothing like it IMO. Look at any extant Marin de la Garde habit/ shako and you can see. Also the Chasseur á Chev chez Musée de l’armee (foyer?).

Can’t agree with some; it’s a critical part of the history- whether you bother or not. NO, I am not interested in playing matchsticks battles nor anything chess like.

I haven’t seen any discussion here, may be news to some but others not. Whatever rattles ya cage….

 

[Jim Webster]

Tony Hughes wrote:

Paint in 3mm and the problem almost disappears. Got to say that I can understand D’s fixation to some extent as I am loathe to design and supply flags that I can’t get good source info. for. The problem is that, sometimes, an informed guess is the best you can do as reliable info isn’t accessible or simply doesn’t exist. Napoleonic period stuff is less of a problem than many other periods but there are still gaps. Always say that a design is conjectural though – which is what many authors & illustrators fail to do. Tony of TTT

 

It is one of those things, men were issued stuff out of stock and issued after it was no longer supposed to be, men ended up wearing civilian trousers they’d picked up on their travels to replace stuff that wore out.
Not only that but your jacket, newly issued, would be a different shade to mine which I’ve been wearing for six months

https://jimssfnovelsandwargamerules.wordpress.com/

[Chris Pringle]

I suppose I’m somewhere in the middle in this debate.

In terms of its importance to me, uniformology is definitely a long way behind what the guys in said uniforms were actually doing. If I waited until I’d painted all the troops correctly, I’d never get a game in, especially given the wide variety of conflicts I want to wargame. I’m perfectly happy to use proxies.

That said, I am one of those dilettanti who are entertained by such curiosities. For instance, it gave me great pleasure to discover that Jellacic’s Grenzers at Schwechat in 1848 were not wearing their usual uniforms, as these had either been worn out by campaigning or else never issued in the first place, so they borrowed the line infantry’s change of uniform.

But I don’t actually have any Grenzers in the right uniform anyway, even though I’ve played dozens and dozens of 1848 games that feature them. Hasn’t spoiled the games as historical exercises, nor as entertainment.

 

[Not Connard Sage]

OotKust wrote:

Not Connard Sage wrote:

And what hue is aurore anyway?

Colloquially- sunrise orange. http://pourpre.com/fr/dictionnaire/file/aurore Most often quoted in Brit as salmon-pink, yet is nothing like it IMO. Look at any extant Marin de la Garde habit/ shako and you can see. Also the Chasseur á Chev chez Musée de l’armee (foyer?). Can’t agree with some; it’s a critical part of the history- whether you bother or not. NO, I am not interested in playing matchsticks battles nor anything chess like. I haven’t seen any discussion here, may be news to some but others not. Whatever rattles ya cage….

 

Accurately, “dawn”, the antonym of “crepuscule”.

Now, dawn pink may be OK, but dawn yellow?.

Either way, it’s nothing like Vallejo German yellow, and if it is a yellow hue then it’s a fine distinction between aurore and deep yellow.

I’ve seen aurore called pink, violet, red violet, yellow and orange. Only one can be correct, probably.

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[General Slade]

Aurore is definitely Vallejo German Orange.  That’s the colour on the shabraques and holster covers of my Grenadiers à Cheval so I would say that is definitive.

Mind you, the jury is still out on Polish crimson . . .

[Not Connard Sage]

1. General Slade wrote:

   Aurore is definitely Vallejo German Orange. That’s the colour on the shabraques and holster covers of my Grenadiers à Cheval so I would say that is definitive. Mind you, the jury is still out on Polish crimson . . .

It’s deep pink. Humbrol Authenticolours can’t be wrong!

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[General Slade]

Not Connard Sage wrote:

1. General Slade wrote:

   Aurore is definitely Vallejo German Orange. That’s the colour on the shabraques and holster covers of my Grenadiers à Cheval so I would say that is definitive. Mind you, the jury is still out on Polish crimson . . .

It’s deep pink. Humbrol Authenticolours can’t be wrong!

This is true. Otherwise they wouldn’t be allowed to call it ‘authentic’. But I use acrylics these days and finding a perfect match for the Humbrol version is proving a lifetime’s work.   At present I favour Gamecraft Coral but I would feel much more confident if they had called it Polish Crimson:

And why couldn’t they call their dark green ‘French Dragoon Green’ so I could be sure I was using the right colour?

[Not Connard Sage]

General Slade wrote:

And why couldn’t they call their dark green ‘French Dragoon Green’ so I could be sure I was using the right colour?

Again you are in error. Humbrol’s French Dragoon Green is a bright spring green. Which is obviously what you should be looking for a substitute for. 🙂

 

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[General Slade]

Damn!  Now I’ve got to repaint half my cavalry!

[OotKust]

General Slade wrote:

Damn! Now I’ve got to repaint half my cavalry!

Well what righteous gamer hasn’t already????

I use Citadel now- when the sun comes up I’ll shoot the bottle and show ye!

Post Edit Thoughts: On the de Marbot illustration, the most heinous crime appears overlooked- that is that the regiment were mounted on blacks, as best fit, and in 1804, in Paris, I’m sure they were… didn’t stay that way of course. [We know they ‘rejected’ unfit for use Prussian mounts in 1806/07 for instance] .

No-one is saying we need to be 100% accurate in our ‘modern’ interpretations of such matters- I merely point out that again, ‘norms’ are moving targets, and some of us are happy to engage such issues- otherwise why would I bother customising an entire armies worth of French? I feel guilty having so many shakoes in it…

[willz]

Colours used to paint our toys are all subjective, a red coat first issued will be a very different colour after it’s been under the sun for several months.  how many shades of black are there, I used to paint real submarines as part of my job, the shade of black would be different if applied in Scotland compared to using the same paint in Florida.  Viewing a red / blue / green or whatever uniform will look a different shade or hue when viewed from 10 metres to the same thing viewed from 1000 metres.

“it’s all toy soldiers you know” and subjective to our own beliefs, so try your best to get the uniforms as near to the colours that you think are the best for your toys.  Personally I have never lost a wargame because the 3rd foot and mouth regiment has been painted in the wrong hue.  It’s normally down to my poor tactical planning and bad dice😁.

[OotKust]

Chris Pringle wrote:

I’m perfectly happy to use proxies. That said, I am one of those dilettanti who are entertained by such curiosities. For instance, it gave me great pleasure to discover that Jellacic’s Grenzers at Schwechat in 1848 were not wearing their usual uniforms, as these had either been worn out by campaigning or else never issued in the first place, so they borrowed the line infantry’s change of uniform.

And I agree- my Grenz for 1805 also, because I simply can’t believe they were ALL ISSUED new uniforms because of ‘rules’, have diverse colours and shades as best I can make without going into complete ‘re-make’ mode. Besides I bought my WF ‘skirmishing’ type models 20 years ago and am sticking with them.

Given a one battalion regiment [Bröder Grenz Regiment #7], I only discovered in the last 5 years, was an amalgame of the two battle weary and worn battalions from the short campaign- so they should be pretty dishevilled and lacking in the uniformity. Contrast that with another regiment taken from the Army Reserve that hadn’t been on campaign, which may well have been more ‘regularly’ appointed.

**PLDs comments on Drummers and Tete du Colonne for de Ligne regiments seem to be hitting a chord. That is, coloured facings were in the minority of regiments.

If at all most regimental drummers continued to use the lace distinctions cited for 1786 (ie yellow lace around facings; or special embroidered lace with zig-zag designs); wings and not epaulettes etc.

 

[OotKust]

If they care at all, everyone remembers the Russian Body Guards taking the 1er bon/4eme Regiment de ligne Eagle and flag at Austerlitz.

Given the nature of the assault (well planned) and isolation (poor command and control) of the battalion it’s no wonder.

However, the 4th were suffering the second Eagles loss of the campaign. Hardly anyone remembers Caldiero under Massena, 6 weeks earlier…  Frederic Berjaud provides a snippet of the history:

http://frederic.berjaud.free.fr/Articles_de_Didier_Davin/005edeLigne/5e_de_ligne.htm#retour2

Oh The Infamy!

The 5eme had been chosen by the Emperor in February of 1805 to provide his personal bodyguard while at Turin:

l’Empereur écrit, depuis Paris, au Maréchal Berthier : “… A Turin, les quatre compagnies de grenadiers du 5e de ligne, à cet effet complétées, serviront de garde d’honneur à l’Empereur. Le 15 ventôse, elles iront s’établir à Stupinigi et recevront l’ordre de service du gouverneur de ce palais. Le ministre écrira au colonel pour que ces compagnies soient dans la meilleure tenue, et aient tous des bonnets à poil. Le colonel du 5e de ligne les commandera. A dater du 15 ventôse et pendant tout le temps qu’elles resteront à Stupinigi, il sera accordé une double paye aux officiers et soldats …“

Emphasis mine. Noted 4 companies of Grenadiers, ergo 4 battalions in the regiment (defeats the naysayers who for decades have claimed foot regiments only or mostly contained two active/ war battalions.

Their single duty is dictated. Body Guard/ Honour Guard. Even though Italian troops were available and performed as such, his closest guard was to be entirely French.

The Govenor is to order, and ensure, that the men are dressed completely and in best order for the purpose. Most particularly, they are to be wearing bearskins (ourson). It wasn’t a question! And a reward of double pay for the duration!

A plate taken from Bucquoy, upon which we can take some comfort?

–

Figure 2 : Grenadier du 5e de Ligne en 1805. C’est la tenue classique de l’infanterie de Ligne avec bonnet d’oursin et les distinctives de Grenadiers (épaulettes, dragonne du sabre briquet et plumet écarlates, grenades aux retroussis, etc …).

– To continue…

The 3 battalions of the 5th Line are in Herbins Brigade, Molitor Division, placed in the centre of the French lines.

The Adige is the dividing line between the Kingdom of Italy and the Italy under Austrian control; which was crossed by Massena at and around Verona on 18 October.

After ten days face off the opponents collide at Caldiero. A rather bloody battle which, strategically, does not prevent the Austrians of Archduke Charles from retreating toward Vienna, leaving behind strong garrisons, including that of Venice.

The 5th Line had many casualties while assaulting the enemy in the battle. The Regiments three Eagles were there but it lost that of the 1er Battalion, while that of the Second Battalion Eagle was smashed by cannister.

Cannot have been the best of reviews post battle, but it pinned Erz. Karl in Italy for enough time to allow Austerlitz to become the battle of the decade.

regards, davew

[OotKust]

General Slade wrote:

Aurore is definitely Vallejo German Orange. That’s the colour on the shabraques and holster covers of my Grenadiers à Cheval so I would say that is definitive. Mind you, the jury is still out on Polish crimson . . .

Well I will have to beg to differ. After years of hand mixing my ‘shades’ to obtain, that  ‘je ne sais quoi…’ I looked at my palette one day, then the bottle I was shaking, and whoa! What is this I discover?

GW/ Warhammer colour was ‘Vomit Brown’ but now isn’t. The sample figure, painted a good two years ago actually, has undiluted colour on his schabraque lace edging- comparison with a recent colour photo of  THE exhibit in Musée d’Armée, matching the faded sabretache laces and uniform, but not the ‘oranger’ schabraque lace. On top of the Rousellot plate.

Ditto another figure of Rousellots’ Plate 69,

with figure aligned and pottle adjacent as best I can. Yes it’s been shaken as well! I was somewhat pleasantly surprised to find the colour also closely matched that used by US painter Keith Rollos renditions.

So for my money, I needn’t look further. Of note, yes I have left some paint ‘pure’ and strong as this, other figures have watered down shades or ‘peaks’ of colour, just as I have done with most regiments- seeking variation and different uniform attributes and break up the sameness by adding lighting variations to otherwise static figures.

cheers d

[OotKust]

And here’s another… modern artist ‘reproduces’ a scene… Keith Rocco from US has painted a new/ old theme, which doesn’t look that different to several others.

Introducing a new print, “The Gods of Austerlitz”
Austerlitz- the name of the battle that is synonymous with the glory of Napoleon’s First Empire, was fought in 1805 on a cold December 2nd in the modern-day Czech Republic.

(I say with kindness- because it is documented, that this IS the battle when the ‘Gros Talons- Big Heels’, DID wear full dress habits with lapels, bearskins plumage etc., and should be so depicted- yet they appear here again in surtout, which due to deficiencies and rules was how they did appear over multiple campaigns for the next 9 years, reserving their ‘best dress’ for Paris etc).

Hmmm, even the title is mildly irksome…, ‘of’?; at perhaps? Were they ‘Gods’. Well it was a nickname only, used more in derision by the rest of the ‘little Garde’ and line troop I suspect if you understand French humour. It wasn’t a pious elevation of faith…

Ignoring for the moment the debate about whether such a person was even present; or why a ‘stationary’ scene depicted as suggested in the copious sales pitch:

General de Brigade Michel Ordener is depicted here at the head of at least two squadrons of Grenadiers finding the opportune time to charge the Chevaliers-Gardes.

However- I ask- why is it that Garde Imperialé commanders are habitually (see what I did there?) depicted as mere ‘Colonels’? Did at some point N. decree, or advise that they were to dress down, below their true ranks? They were, in nearly all cases, Genereaux de Brigade, and hence entitled to wear such insignia and regalia.

We see it among cavalry (eg most obvious Lasalle), artillery (Mortier before marshalate), engineers etc.

I note that the accepted doyen of ‘period uniform’ accuracy, Edouard Detaille, also shows Lepic in the same mode at Eylau. There are others but I haven’t confirmed them just yet. It seems a list I don’t want to much create anyway.

I can’t fathom such a retrograde distinction being ordered, much less depcited- or are we suffering a reverse psychosis by artists, deliberately playing down participants due to the ‘greatness’ of the occasion?

Whilst I have striven to create a ‘look’ amongst my own model figures, and probably a ‘perverse’ mix of both full dress and campaign style modes, downgrading obvious participants and personalities this way, isn’t one I’ll adopt.

Different when one is talking about the ‘body’- ADCs or other troops who did so- try finding a sapper or engineering figure stripped down to the basic etc.

Any thoughts/ comments/ factoids you may wish to offer…

cheers d

[Heroy]

The one-sentence explanation is : an officer posted to a French guard formation *also* retained his personal rank as an army officer.

This was true under the ancien régime. For example, in 1789 : capitaine commandant la compagnie ecossoise du gardes du corps du roi, le lieutenant général duc d’Ayen.

The position of colonel-général is a bit different, being (like maréchal) a dignity instead of a rank. But in 1805 (although not always) the colonels-généraux were part of the état-major général de la maison militaire de l’empereur – the maison being at that time essentially synomymous with la garde impériale – and they were deemed to be the senior administrative commander or inspecteur of their respective “corps de la garde”

A “colonel” of a regiment of the guard was typically its operational commander. In 1805 : général de division Hulin commandeed the régiment of grenadiers à pied. In 1805 (although not always), a “major” or later a “major colonel” was typically the second in command of a regiment.

There was lots of variation between units of the French guards and over time. If you have a specific unit/time or specific person, I could try to explain the applicable rank nomenclature.

[OotKust]

Thanks, apologies for not replying earlier today- this dreaded lurgy has me low and brainpower at -50 I think, can i think…? Oh well…

No it was more the “why not depicted in a Generals uniform” when actually a General, in the Guard?” question.

The ceremonial uniforms of the Inspector-Generals and Guard colonels-généraux were all based on their senior service uniforms I realise.

What I don’t get is the plethora of such Guard commanders, depicted NOT as Generals  in nearly all post-period/ secondary artwork.

I reaslise its confusing- we have the same issue with the Russians as well (ie regimentals or General…); and I can play with that too!

I’m sure to be a non-conformist here- despite my trying to get away from ‘full dress’ figures as its so commonly used on figures [as one would expect no less, yet variations existed- I know a figure makers nightmare!];  but… exceptions must be made! And la garde must be presentable!

salut, d

**Edits for spelling and missing words!

[Jim Webster]

How strictly were the regulations for officers of this rank enforced?

Was it Picton who sometimes led in civilian dress?

 

 

https://jimssfnovelsandwargamerules.wordpress.com/

[OotKust]

Jim Webster wrote:

How strictly were the regulations for officers of this rank enforced? Was it Picton who sometimes led in civilian dress?

How much of anything was ‘enforced’ Jim? Other than ceremonial occasions, there were many who didn’t from what I remember- Mr. A Wellesley himself also… yes Picton was one of those non-conformists… not that I’ve researched anything British in 30 years… so an expert needs apply__  d

[OotKust]

I’m pleased to read of the 2023 programme for PLDs next series of French Army reference books becoming available.

As unnerving as the ‘discoveries’ will be, I’ll moderate the opinions myself and have happily compiled most of the [to me] relevant data that makes me reconsider my own planning of the near ‘balance’ of my gaming army.

Given the somewhat fraught availability of model uniformed figures, and I explained somewhere why I developed my own set to create at least a ‘standard’ army in bicornes for my 1805… I’m not wanting to venture into the painting arena to quickly right now.

I have enough ‘side-projects’ in various states of completion for units of scenario and technical troops to bring to fruition anyway. [More artillery crew, engineers working, foot dragoons, etc.].

And few can argue against the myriad of ADCs uniform styles that I will use for my commands. The Imperial Household AND the staff of the General-Major (Etat-Major-Generalé) departments will consume a fair proportion; though those for ‘la garde’ need a bit more modification/ additions than other minions. As I research each and every personality, that’s where the hobby takes me…

d

[Konstantinos Travlos]

I think Uniformology is indeed a legitimate field of study (and actually quite important when interjected with economic and political history) and a hobby of its own (which overlaps with historical wargaming but is its own thing). That said whether is important or not to your wargame hobby really depends on what you are looking  for from it.

I will say that one good thing for the uniformology people is that they do push manufacturers to create ranges you normally would not have from a sales point of view. That is a good thing.

[OotKust]

I agree- they can’t make what they can’t see, and detail… hence have done what they’ve seen- “interpretations” unknown to all… but then that just about goes for more now than ever before!

cheers

[MartinR]

I find uniformology quite interesting, but I care about it more some periods/ units more than others from a wargaming pov.

For Ancients I have a fairly undifferentiated mass of ‘barbarians’ who get used for all sorts of things, as if there is one thing I hate painting more than horses, it is Irregular troops. Don’t get me started on Gallic Cavalry…

Give me nice regular soldiers in neat ranks and uniforms any time.

 

"Mistakes in the initial deployment cannot be rectified" - Helmuth von Moltke

[Jim Webster]

MartinR wrote:

I find uniformology quite interesting, but I care about it more some periods/ units more than others from a wargaming pov. For Ancients I have a fairly undifferentiated mass of ‘barbarians’ who get used for all sorts of things, as if there is one thing I hate painting more than horses, it is Irregular troops. Don’t get me started on Gallic Cavalry… Give me nice regular soldiers in neat ranks and uniforms any time.

 

So you’re more a Wallenstein man than a supported of Tilly with his ‘ragged soldier and a bright musket’  🙂

https://jimssfnovelsandwargamerules.wordpress.com/

[OotKust]

MartinR wrote:

I find uniformology quite interesting, but I care about it more some periods/ units more than others from a wargaming pov. … I hate painting more than horses, ,,,

Oh I agree on former- French Napoleonic is my 98% hobby- has been since I vacated the anything/ anywhere type of collecting 30 years ago. I’ve had 15mms, sold em all; had played micro WWII a lot, usually other peoples.

In fact I WILL play anything usually for social gaming, but I only research the French (Republican 1800 + Empire 1805– 1807). Dabble in 1813/14 only because I’m the curator of someones massive Hinchliffe 25/28mm army (mostly unpainted) and I’m wanting to see it resurrected. (And in keeping with 1970s painting of his units).

There are some 20mm Russian WWII armour around from the Airfix days; and I recently re-indulged in a medieval revivial too- a handful ofpainted figures I gave away, now returned plus a part armies worth unpainted… very sideline but less wearying than blasted French piping!

Horses I now find easy. Apart from commands I have more than a dozen cav regiments- base colours dark or light all over (tho many start as the former anyway); I brush darker colours under bellies and bottom of legs; then highlights of lighter colours starting from rump, neck, haunches, head. Look at them and consider how I’ve done. Add another pale wash on uppers; darken legs again if need be; add as a wash socks, blaze, other ‘patches’. If ok I’ll leave them there. On lighter bays I’ll hit with a paler tan colour, just drybrushing as we go, leave the streaks and strips that occur as variant horse hair colours.

Makes them look different at a distance; add the rider (just PVA glue nothing else)- that way nothing breaks if they fall- complete the riders accoutrements on horse, match squadrons (if i am) or just random this and that.

All my ‘commands’ are multi-horse vignettes so these are near always individual, so take a bit longer. E.g.

cheers

 

[OotKust]

Konstantinos Travlos wrote:

I think Uniformology is indeed a legitimate field of study (and actually quite important when interjected with economic and political history)…

Just to nudge back to this, PLD is not engaging in ‘Uniformology’ rather he’s digging the archives for facts and coming up with many a variant- dismissing the 220 + years of  ‘Uniformology’ that is and still does confuse the issues.

Perhaps he’s over his ‘field days of digging’ as an archeologist, but his research and copying of archived official documentation (ie the registers and lists of materials) gives him impetus with support of other documents (Inspectors-General reports) as well as the colloquial squeals of minions and bretheran alike who wanted something…

Hence what he calls the ‘truth’ about uniforms, and largely I have to agree with him. Not always… but some impressive work so far, and more on the way…

cheers d

[OotKust]

I think I bought this in Paris as a souvenir (how appropriate eh!) as not only the cover but another dozen photographs inside of other exhibits.

Magnificent rendition of Grenadier de la Garde ourson (despite the poor size and placement of the plume) which clearly shows the true colour of the plate.

Whilst we slaved away over figures with [Humbrol] ‘brass’ plates- did we know in the 70’s that the French version had a higher ‘copper’ content?? The double sized cords equally impressive.

Case proven___

cheers d

[Devon Start]

wait the color of the uniforms have little to no bearing on the outcome of the battle?!?!?! how smart you must feel to make that comment.
Gee who would have thought.

here is the other thing. this is a BIG hobby and you occupy a very small corner of it. the way you do things represents a tiny insignificant (word chosen specifically) way of doing things.
personally i prefer to paint than to play. probably why my shit is in books and i win awards for painting.

so for me, who wants to paint more than play, getting the uniforms correct is the fun part.
Knowing what there is to know about it, even if its limited(and understanding what that means, and that sometimes you have guess or make things up-especially when doing colonials and all the natives) getting the minis as accurate as current information can make them is, for a segment of the hobby, a lot of fun.
Those books/articles/debates are there for them. will it help you understand why napoleon won(do you really think anything other than being in the mans head will actually tell you, because THAT is some funny shit right there) those books arent for you but you dont get to roam about Gate Keeping. slow your roll guy

[Devon Start]

i mean hell i painted up the entire line of black tree design dr who minis, and i painted them in the outfits they wore on tv. i tracked down every episode and watched those to get an idea of the colors to use, patterns etc.
For some of us, that research is the fun.. sorry you dont have the mental fortitude for it

[OotKust]

Wow someone got outa bed on the wrong side… you forget the ‘common rule’ on here , if you don’t like it- dont answer…

[Not Connard Sage]

OotKust wrote:

Wow someone got outa bed on the wrong side… you forget to common rule here, if you don’t like it dont answer…

It’s OK, I suppose he means me. I can take it.

I do ad hominems too, usually without the profanity though. 🙂

I don’t know where Devon’s going with Dr Who. Research? Please. Must be a poor attempt at sarcasm, which indicates he’s American because they’re hopeless at it.

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[OotKust]

Not Connard Sage wrote:

K, I suppose he means me. I can take it.

If you say so, but not sure why… anyway at least the Ignore works so good riddance to the ignorance, spoiling my day…
I can take the abuse of friends and family somewhat well, others not so much___

Now to return to the topic… dave

[Not Connard Sage]

OotKust wrote:

Not Connard Sage wrote:

K, I suppose he means me. I can take it.

If you say so, but not sure why… anyway at least the Ignore works so good riddance to the ignorance, spoling my day… I can take the abuse of friends and family well, others not so much___ Now to return to the topic… dave

After the robust rebuttals I’ve offered to some of your posts I thought you might agree with him 🙂

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[Not Connard Sage]

Going back to ‘aurore’.

There is apparently a shade called ‘jaune aurore’ that is of course orange yellow. If not implicitly stated as such might we regard ‘aurore’ as the more reddish hue?

 

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[OotKust]

Not Connard Sage wrote:

Going back to ‘aurore’. There is apparently a shade called ‘jaune aurore’ that is of course orange yellow. If not implicitly stated as such might we regard ‘aurore’ as the more reddish hue?

🙂 and

I guess that’s where the ‘salmon’ influence started as well.

‘Pantone’ standards taught me so much when I was in the industrial side that it influenced my thought and sight processes forever. Add a spectrophotometer for about 6k (then) and I was delirious- but you know I never did check any of my model paints!

My ‘standard’ is my trusty (sometimes) 40 year old palette of thickening paint daubs and washes… hmm, maybe I should photograph that…

cheers d

[Heroy]

André Joineau (for web-use – modern)

https://i.servimg.com/u/f91/09/01/04/33/nuanci11.jpg

He says for oil painting, 80% naples yellow, 20% vermillion, and a small “pinch” of white.

Boisellier (20th century)

https://www.soldaademohler.fr/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/IMG_3166.jpg

Vernet & Lami (contemporary – bottom row)

Anon – portrait de capitaine adjudant-major Roussot de Zeloski, du 27e dragons (contemporary)

https://sm3.photorapide.com/membres/5001/photos/rj5ab1.jpg

There are quite a few portraits. Try searching google images for 19e-21e chasseurs à cheval and 25e-30e dragons

For what it’s worth, the eyes of people with ocular albinism are described in period French dictionaries as “brilliant aurore”.

 

 

 

[Author]

Posts