Other Russian Matters

[OotKust]

Couple of quick questions.

I note “Yakov Otroshenko” – Staff Captain Otroshenko commanded a company in the 7th Jager Regiment.” mentioned this unit nearby:

“Uglitskii Musketeer Regiment”

Excerpt From: Alexander Mikaberidze. “Russian Eyewitness Accounts of the Campaign of 1807.” iBooks.

Can’t make a logical regiment we’d recognise (nor can Russian translators!).

Second- in doing said search this popped in- is the paint on front of mitre real or a later decorative addition?

https://www.pinterest.co.kr/pin/pattern-1797-mitre-hat-of-pavel-i-era-army-musketeer-regiments-grenadier–570901690237037003/

cheers d

[OotKust]

And perhaps even more impressive (with clear close range bullet holes):

-one I’d ascribe to a senior Grenadier regiment, perhaps the Ukraine Inspection if thats ‘rose’ red? A fusilier mitre or is that cloth just a bit too close, and its a Grenadier that lost its pompom?

Click on posters name and get a whole lot more mitres of vaious kinds, but not a few Russian niceties 🙂

~d

[OotKust]

And another subject: We’re somewhat customised [as gamers] to seeing or reading about Russian fleches; minor field works erected to protect forward positions and disrupt enemy attacks.

But really apart from Borodino- is there a count of how many and when/ where they were otherwised employed?

Too late, I’ve already started some modest terrain pieces, but I have to ask.

thanks davew

[OotKust]

OotKust wrote:

Couple of quick questions. I note “Yakov Otroshenko” – Staff Captain Otroshenko commanded a company in the 7th Jager Regiment.” mentioned this unit nearby: “Uglitskii Musketeer Regiment” Excerpt From: Alexander Mikaberidze. “Russian Eyewitness Accounts of the Campaign of 1807.” iBooks. Can’t make a logical regiment we’d recognise (nor can Russian translators!).

OK apart from reading I had time to go hunt an answer for myself. Care of  Diego_Bozzolan ‘Infantry 1800-1812; IMPERIAL RUSSIAN ARMY-‘ pdf copy I found under Paul I establishment Musketeer Regiments:

Gersdorfa [Gersdorf’s] (formerly the Uglitskii [Uglich].

Really interesting to read that a name/ title, temporarily changed back then under Paul, was still vernacular in 1807 to another units officer 5 years along the next regime!

cheers dave

[Jonathan Gingerich]

Yes, the Uglich regiment. Also known by their chief’s names junder Paul I:

с 12.03.1798 по 02.11.1798
–
г-м. Коновницын Петр Пет.

с 02.11.1798 по 20.02.1800
–
г-м. Корф Ник. Фед.
с 20.02.1800 по “22.09.1813”[1]
–
г-м. бар. Герздорф Карл Макс.

See Viskovatov and Podmazo.

Not sure what you are seeing regarding the miter plates, as the links don’t get there, but some were painted. Look at Viskovatov.

[Jonathan Gingerich]

I think that is a later years L-g. Pavlovsk miter. I forget when they started the practice of embossing the wearer’sname into the plate.

[OotKust]

Jonathan Gingerich wrote:

Yes, the Uglich regiment….. Not sure what you are seeing regarding the miter plates, as the links don’t get there, but some were painted. Look at Viskovatov.

 

OK sorry about that- I’ve never seen anything deleted from pintrest before: which however is why I usually capture images I want for reference: here it is with original posted title:

The second? With bullet and perhaps cannister damage (the irregular holes?):

Many thanks Jonathan for replying; I’ve been offline for 30 hours due to a much needed reconstruction of my Macbook!

cheers davew

[OotKust]

I’ll just add some modelling… the very centre of the Russian ‘advance’ at Austerlitz was one Heavy Battery-

CRM ‘Early Russian’ artillery in uniform and greatcoats. Shown with 6 pounders and not the heavier 12s yet available. Following others I’ve used a grey rather than pure black for shakoes, but didn’t like the ‘lines’ or splodges effect so made them wholly grey, with peaks retouched in black.

Of course the figures aren’t truly ‘early’ as they have 1808 styles fittings however as a style thats ok for me. I varied the costumes deliberately and applied not quite ‘regulation’ things like yellow cuffs on greatcoats etc. and mixed the placements of a ‘working’ company.

The snow effect I hope is reasonable as I’ve used a double layer of pure white aquarium sand for coverage at exorbitent expense [when compared to the ‘free’ sand] I’ve stolen from local beaches and ‘purified’ myself 🙂

Trust you like them, only my second ‘official’ full Russian unit supporting the Kaiserliks all around them, cheers

davew

[OotKust]

RUSSIAN GUARDS 1805 

Yet another research topic- this one appears an excellent article but needs a decent translation to English, as both the automated version of translator and an alternate, rather better usually, cant cope with the dialect or idiom of two centuries ago:

http://siberia-minis.7910.org/forum/showthread.php?fid=9&tid=74

I had already saved the pics on my first or earlier visit, but I need to create cross links and refs [one very good reason for keeping the obscure gibberish/ titles of online data].

My only serious interest here was the Jaeger Battalion,

thanks dave

[OotKust]

Reading Mikaberidzes’ fine authorship, I was interested to read about the beginnings of one famous Russian :

Davidov,  young hussar officer…  seconded to Aide to Prince Bagration (1807)

“But this very field offered another disgraceful sight that shattered my very soul. As I mentioned, we were on the site of the battle of Mohrungen … Driven by curiosity, I examined the field of battle. I first travelled along our position and then visited the enemy one. I could see where the gunfire and attacks were most intense based on the number of corpses that covered the ground in those areas. Colonel Alexsey Yermolov commanded the artillery of our advance guard and its fire had devastated, in the fullest sense of this word, infantry columns and lines of the enemy cavalry that lay in heaps near the village Pfaresfeldschen, lying stricken by cannonballs and canister in the same order as they advanced or stood during the battle.”

I had associated the name with being  THAT cossack officer… funny if not scary incident soon after…

“No longer expecting any help from the Cossacks, I was supremely confident in the prowess of my steed. Filled with anger against a total stranger who, God knows, was simply carrying out his duty and obligations just like myself, I drew closer to him, brandishing my sword and swearing at him in French as loudly and expressively as possible. I challenged him to leave his line and engage me unassisted in a combat. He swore back at me and offered the same conditions; but neither of us took up the challenge and we both stayed rooted to the spot. But it must be said that I had, in fact, strayed quite a distance from the Cossacks and was within only three or four horse bounds away from the French flanquers while the [enemy] officer was within the flanquers’ line itself. To be honest, I have done everything to deserve to be patted on the head but also yanked by the ears from my horse.
At that moment a Cossack uryadnik [non-commissioned officer] galloped over to me, exclaiming: ‘Why are you swearing, Your Honour? That’s a sin! Fighting is a sacred business and swearing in battle is like swearing “inside a church. God will punish you! You will perish and so will we. Please, better go back to where you came from!’ Only then did I realise the absurdity of my pretension to be a Trojan hero and rode back to Prince Bagration.”

Excerpt From: Alexander Mikaberidze. “Russian Eyewitness Accounts of the Campaign of 1807.” iBooks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denis_Davydov

A very brief bio, and it misses any reference to his memoires, but explains why I thought he was Cossack, actually ennobled Tatar, if he ‘designed’ the resistance to N. invasion… quite interesting…

https://tinyurl.com/Denis-Davydov

cheers d

[OotKust]

A Review- Cossack Hurrah by S.Summerfield 2005 (Partisan Press)

I’ve not found any reference to it here, so I put forward my very tardy analysis as I’ve not been investing in gaming OR history books for twenty years, so am a bit behind the times!

Well Cossack Hurrah- what can i say? Almost a waste of $70. (current cost to purchase/ freight) given it fails its premise of “…During the Napoleonic War”.

The first paragraph largely places it_ “in 1812 the Cossacks…”

And so it contains mostly details of 1812+ period and passes over previous campaigns with 1-2 short, undetailled paragraphs. Sure there are later sections- luckily a broad scope of 1796-1815 where a single uniform will be described; a few attribute changes on later dates (again beyond my period of interest) in 1805-07 which would have been acceptable in a $30 book.

Illustrations are varied- massive fail on coloured plates that are both mislabelled, and while having legends, no key on the actual figures; and the Osprey-esque dysfunction of describing colours on b&w pics.

I guess the background history is the most significant and useful, if undocumented source material; while theres a big bibliography and I note he had every book in my library! despite criticising the ‘other’ common texts from Brit origins, yet cites quite a few himself anyway; anyway history going back to 1700-ish.

Dispels a few of the common misbeliefs (all cossacks were freemen- no; they governed themselves- no, both Atamans and officers were appointed/ vetted by Tsar/ Russian Army etc.). Yes there were a bunch of flags/ guidons but still not universal.

And that the new 1812 Ukraine Cossacks were one of the few ‘voiskos’ to employ lance pennants (whew).

Also through the long list of uniforms voisko by voisko there were more than a few ‘green’ uniforms; including among ‘christian bashkirs’- than English sources tell us were ‘avoided’ due to the colour being associated with Islam, ie traditional Arab-Turk enemies.

So overall, final word on CH… poor editing (what I’d expect from Caliver, not a PHd) of grammar, spelling and formatting. Still a bloody author who cites a city/ town and then doesnt put them on maps!!!

Concise and generous historically, if but poorly formatted, gets 3.5 / 5 from me. Thankfully some of the illustrations of more exotic nature (ie private collections it seems) make up for missing early campaign research. [It also doesn’t help when a slightly damaged cover comes direct from the publisher].

Regards dave

[OotKust]

Ok so the review crashed.

Interesting comments (a la translator) from a reenactment group in Russia. (I’ve corrected bad formatting__)

• In 1803, 2 squadrons were assigned from the regiment to form the proposed Odessa Hussar Regiment, which was named the Body Guards Uhlan Regiment after its formation.
• In 1810, it was decided that in the event of the outbreak of hostilities, from among the existing cavalry regiments, 2 squadrons (at the discretion of the commander) should remain at the place of their permanent quartering in the form of a reserve.

On the first- well we know that. Clarifying however that it was first formed as a regiment, THEN named as Uhlans under Konstantines personal control, (albeit without actual lances until 1806).

Secondly- what hostilities? Is that referring to external, or hostility within the regiments (ie mutiny)? Just read it that way…

Interesting site overall:- http://www.gusa.ru/organization.html

cheers d

[Heroy]

Denis Vasilyevich Davydov probably had less Tatar/Mongol heritage than most Russians.
A great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandson (11 generations in the male line) of Genghis Khan was Khan Ulugh Mohammad of the Golden Horde and founder of the Kazan Khanate. His second son, Qasim Trehub (1417-1469), in an effort to steal the Kazan Khanate from his older brother, sided with Grand Duke of Moscow Vasily the Blind (1415-1462) who was attempting to free Moscovy from vassalage to the Mongols. Qasim’s second son, Minchak Kosai (~1435-1474) converted to Christianity as Boris Semeyon Kasayevich and married a Moscovy noblewoman. His great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandson (10 generations in the male line, with some surname changes) was Denis Vasilyevich Davydov (1784-1839), who was thus about 1/10th of 1 percent Mongol/Tatar.

One of Davydov’s peers was, ethnically, 100% Chechen : Aleksandr Nikolayevich Chechenskiy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Chechenskiy

================

“what hostilities?”
Any.
The idea for 1810-1812 was that 10 squadron (2 “batallion”) hussar and lancer regiments would have 8 “active” squadrons with 2 center squadrons (i.e., chosen from the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and the 7th, 8th and 9th squadrons) designated as “Replacement” squadrons. In case of going on campaign, the 2 “Replacement” squadrons would be used to fill up the active squadrons to full strength, and then remain in the caserne of the regiment. The “Replacement” squadrons would, in turn, be refilled by the 11th and 12th “Recruit” squadrons after their initial military and equestrian training was completed at a specified recruit depot.
However, due the French invasion, most of the “Replacement” squadrons were sent on campaign as part of temporary “Combined” regiments and the 1812 “Recruit” squadrons were typically sent wherever convenient/needed.
The system was conceptually similar in 1808-1809 and 1813-1816, but with differences in details.

[OotKust]

Hey that’s very interesting historical information- also as a family ‘amateur historian’ equally is pertinent. At least I know I’m 25% Danish! But isn’t it interesting how ‘facts’ get included on foreign language subjects that are simply, less plausable.

Thanks also for clarification on the reorganisation of the Russian cavalry. I know I hadn’t heard of any ‘rebellion’ among the regulars; but I wasn’t sure the way it had been translated that some other meaning wasn’t being suggested.

regards dave

 

[OotKust]

surging around the webnetts had this site saved but not completely explored…

No idea of knowing if its genuine, or a copy/ reproduction, but worth a close look and the excellence of the uniform manufacture…

Sorry cant tiny the url:

https://rybkabohunka.rajce.idnes.cz/122_Bitva_tri_cisaru,_Slavkov_29.11.2014_-_209.vyroci

cheers d

[OotKust]

You know, doing some searching/ research… reading some of JGs footnotes and among a backtrack I noted under his heading :
Guard Distinctions

the following statement…

In particular, center company privates of the light regiments were armed only with musket and bayonet, no swords.

Will come as a great surprise to wargamers- majority of Russian Garde light cavalry regiments- could not melee except with muskets! Certainly a WTH moment for me!

How do you feel? Gonna make the FOGN lads think…

cheers

[General Slade]

I assumed this only referred to light infantry regiments (or were you making a joke and I missed the point? – always a possibility).

[OotKust]

General Slade wrote:

I assumed this only referred to light infantry regiments (or were you making a joke and I missed the point? – always a possibility).

Unless its a disconnected paragraph, no, its under ‘Cavalry’…

humour-? No thats no fun…

d

 

[General Slade]

The previous heading (Leib-Uralsk Century) is about cavalry but it all comes under the main heading of ‘Leib-Garde’.  If you look at the next sub-heading –  ‘Metalwork’ – Pavlovsk miter plates are mentioned, which is clearly a reference to infantry.  Also, the cavalry were armed with carbines not muskets and, as far as I am aware, the cavalry regiments didn’t have centre and flank companies as such (though lancer regiments did have a small number of men on each flank who were armed with rifled carbines).

[OotKust]

Yes, and the previous major heading is “Cuirassiers [170]” that being a footnote marker.

The whole section is about their Cavalry. And lists the Regiments.

And the sentence prior to the one I quoted is about two cavalry regiments. A ‘change in tempo’ between sentences of a paragraph is not clear and if infantry is the subject, it should have been highlighted there.

So he needs to work on formatting and clarity a bit more- get to it Jonathan!

thanks d

[Author]

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