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  • #145986
    hammurabi70
    Participant

    During the Peninsular Campaign what was the:

    (1) Official national flag e.g. White flag with Crown of Maria I

    (2) What did the Portuguese soldiers in Wellington’s army carry as their flag?

    #145987
    vtsaogames
    Participant

    Here are some flags

    This too shall pass

    #145989
    zippyfusenet
    Participant

    Ian Croxall’s Warflag site has these designs:

    http://www.warflag.com/flags/napoleon/napportt.shtml

    I believe the regimental color matched the regiment’s facings.

    Here’s a good site on historical flags, although it doesn’t cover military standards:

    https://www.fotw.info/flags/pt_1706.html

     

    You'll shoot your eye out, kid!

    #146031
    Thaddeus Blanchette
    Participant

    All I know is that it is a royal pain in the ass to hand paint at 6mm.

    We get slapped around, but we have a good time!

    #146048
    hammurabi70
    Participant

    Many thanks for the input.  Is there a definitive view on the main colour being white or red and which monarchs heraldry goes on the flag?  The piebald blue-white design appears to be a later nineteenth century device and the more modern red-green a symbol of the revolution.  It may well be that the troops had individual regimental colours but the national flag seems elusive. Did the troops just adopt the British flag!??

    The start of my sources is GOOGLE but it does not seem to be my friend!

    #146056
    zippyfusenet
    Participant

    Portuguese infantry in the Napoleonic Wars did not carry a ‘national flag’. They carried a King’s Color and a Regimental Color. The King’s Color was the multi-colored design shown on the left in this picture. It was the same for all regiments. The Regimental Color had a solid colored field, and is shown on the right in this picture. The field of the Regimental Color was the same as that regiment’s facing color. (Hmm, actually not in this picture. That’s not what I expected to see.) These flags are shown in more detail on the Warflags site that I linked earlier.

    You'll shoot your eye out, kid!

    #146091
    hammurabi70
    Participant

    Ah!  Thank you; very helpful.  So there was normally something of a military national flag as well as a national flag, although the military national flag might have embellishments to differentiate individual units.  The website is very useful in looking at those differences across the nations.  Is there any clarity on what point the military flag was replaced with the national flag?  Does a garrison town fly a military flag or the national flag?  The best example of that seems to be Russia, where presumably at some point a military flag would give way to the tricolour white-blue-red national flag, something quite distinct.  Which also raises again the issue of the Portuguese national flag: was it a monarchical crest and if so, which monarch and with what background, red or white?

    #146094
    zippyfusenet
    Participant

    In the 18th and early 19th centuries, national flags were flown on ships, fortresses and other public buildings. I believe the Portuguese national flag of this era was the white flag with the crowned national coat of arms, as shown on the historical flag page I linked earlier.

    You'll shoot your eye out, kid!

    #146115
    Jemima Fawr
    Participant

    If it helps, the regimental flag was the colour of the regiment’s PIPING colour rather than the facing colour.  This signified the peacetime regional division (north, central or south) to which the regiment belonged – either red, yellow or white.

    The yellow saltire on the red/blue King’s Colour is something of a mystery.  Some sources suggest that it was added as an honorific to certain regiments, while other sources suggest that it was added to all King’s Colours.

    Portuguese regiments originally consisted of a single ten-company battalion, which carried both colours.  However, this became two battalions in around 1806ish and the colours were split up – the 1st Battalion getting the King’s Colour and the 2nd Battalion getting the Regimental Colour.  Regiments were occasionally amalgamated into a single battalion due to losses and might therefore carry both colours together.

    Cacadores did not normally carry colours, but the 7th and 11th Cacadore Regiments were awarded colours as an honorific in late 1813 or early 1814.  As single-battalion regiments they carried both colours in the same battalion.

    Cavalry regiments had one standard per squadron in the regiment.  These were white for the 1st Sqn, red for the 2nd, yellow for the 3rd and light blue for the 4th squadron.

    My wargames blog: http://www.jemimafawr.co.uk/

    #146118
    zippyfusenet
    Participant

    Well said, Jemima!

    You'll shoot your eye out, kid!

    #146124
    hammurabi70
    Participant

    In the 18th and early 19th centuries, national flags were flown on ships, fortresses and other public buildings. I believe the Portuguese national flag of this era was the white flag with the crowned national coat of arms, as shown on the historical flag page I linked earlier.

    That is my assumption although one of the links appears to indicate red cloth backing rather than white.

    #146125
    hammurabi70
    Participant

    If it helps, the regimental flag was the colour of the regiment’s PIPING colour rather than the facing colour. This signified the peacetime regional division (north, central or south) to which the regiment belonged – either red, yellow or white. The yellow saltire on the red/blue King’s Colour is something of a mystery. Some sources suggest that it was added as an honorific to certain regiments, while other sources suggest that it was added to all King’s Colours. Portuguese regiments originally consisted of a single ten-company battalion, which carried both colours. However, this became two battalions in around 1806ish and the colours were split up – the 1st Battalion getting the King’s Colour and the 2nd Battalion getting the Regimental Colour. Regiments were occasionally amalgamated into a single battalion due to losses and might therefore carry both colours together. Cacadores did not normally carry colours, but the 7th and 11th Cacadore Regiments were awarded colours as an honorific in late 1813 or early 1814. As single-battalion regiments they carried both colours in the same battalion. Cavalry regiments had one standard per squadron in the regiment. These were white for the 1st Sqn, red for the 2nd, yellow for the 3rd and light blue for the 4th squadron.

    That’s great; all additionally information is helpful!  I plead ignorance on almost all matters Napoleonic.

    #146129
    zippyfusenet
    Participant

    one of the links appears to indicate red cloth backing rather than white.

    The red field was the royal standard. I’m not entirely sure of the protocol, but I believe it would be flown on the palace when the king was in residence, flown on the royal yacht went the king went water-skiing, etc.

    You'll shoot your eye out, kid!

    #146130
    Jemima Fawr
    Participant

    You’re most welcome.  If you’re interested, the line infantry regiments repeated the provincial piping and therefore flag colour sequence white, red, yellow through the list of regiments,  So the 1st had white, the 2nd had red, the 3rd had yellow and so on:

    White: 1st, 4th, 7th, 10th, 13th, 16th, 19th & 22nd

    Red: 2nd, 5th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th, 20th & 23rd

    Yellow: 3rd, 9th, 12th, 15th, 18th, 21st & 24th.

    My wargames blog: http://www.jemimafawr.co.uk/

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