Rule Books. How do you like them?

[Otto Schmidt]

Dear List

I don’t buy rules any more.  First off I won’t even look at the, what I call  100/100’s  (over 100 pages, over $100) rule sets.  Pretty pictures of other peoples minis are off no attraction to me, and I don’t need illustrations of “what is a line” to get through them.  My own criteria for my own rules is simple 12 pages long, single spaced, 12 point times Roman Bold, 3/4″ margins, no abbreviations or jargon, all tables, illustrations, charts, rules, examples and designer drivel in that 12 pages. If you can’t fit it then get out the red pen and start slashing.

 

Rules should be like the instruction manuals to use toasters, washing machines or televisions.   They should be simple, intuitive, and something you consult the first few times you need it, then shove into a drawer and forget about because you know how the thing works.

Back 25 years ago or more I tried some of the  huge glossies and the like. After a year or two  I recalled that back when we used Featherstone, Moreschauser, Grant, or Young, with a few modifications and house rules we had much more fun and games weren’t something like going to a post-graduate class.  I designed my own rules from then on.

Back in 1957 Jack Scruby in his “All About War Games” which was a cheaply printed, hokiley illustrated booklet he published to send out to people who were interested in the hobby said that “I am asked all the time where I can get the rules to war games?” He admitted to being at  a loss and said “Every War Game General writes his own rules.”

Not much has changed lo these 58 years later. Whenever I see the big fat glossies at conventions or games I always see half a dozen pages stuck in the back or sandwiched in to the various pages. These are all the ‘additions, edits, fixes, addenda, errata, and adjustments the gamers has made to “fix” the rules and tailor them to his own likes and dislikes. THOSE ARE THE REAL RULES! and once again Jack was right.

Otto

[Patrice]

Alvin Molethrottler wrote:

am I the only one sick of paying for rule books that start by describing what a d6 is and then go on to treat the reader as if they were hard of understanding?

I have had a player who spent most of his time asking for very small details – I could say “ridiculous details”, and often very annoying…

…but I must thank him, because now, when I write anything new in my ruleset, I think of what he could have asked… and it prevents me from being too pompous.

I also remember of something I was told during my (then compulsory, long ago) one-year military service in the French Army. Hey, you folks can think whatever you want about the Armed forces (and I’m certainly not a militarist supporter, although I was a Reserve officer and am still proud of it), but that is one of the greatest wisdom I did hear in there: When some instructor said to a superior officer: “The lads haven’t understood anything I have told them”, the answer always was: “They did not understand because you did not explain them well enough!”

I am sure it also applies to wargame rules…

http://www.argad-bzh.fr/argad/en.html
https://www.anargader.net/

[Lagartija Mike]

@Patrice: What are you doing with your rules? I’m in the final neurotic stages of completing mine and I’m interested in how other people are designing their’s: I’ve been unhappy with the currently popular products since I returned to the hobby.

[Patrice]

Lagartija Mike wrote:

@Patrice: What are you doing with your rules? I’m in the final neurotic stages of completing mine

I am always expanding them… and trying to update older extensions, some parts of which are made obsolete by new details in new extensions… and adapting them to contexts or to RPG situations that some players want to try… so they will never be complete, but they don’t really need to, they are a toolbox (or a small heap of toolboxes).

http://www.argad-bzh.fr/argad/en.html
https://www.anargader.net/

[paintpig]

A Lot of Gaul wrote:

The first miniatures wargaming rulebook I fell in love with was The Ancient War Game by Charles Grant. Published in 1974, Mr. Grant’s book was clearly and cleverly written, nicely illustrated, professionally published, and hard bound. From his book I also found that I had a strong preference for rule sets that are results-oriented rather than process-driven, and that read more like cheerful conversations than technical manuals. 

His 18thC rules “The War Game” had a very similar affect on me, clearly explained chapters with historical references and game play examples. As you said, cheerfully conversational, with a demo game at midpoint to cover the rules thus far. It was like learning war gaming from your favourite uncle, no ruleset has come close to capturing my attention since, I make a point of reading these rules every couple of years just for the fun of it.

Impetus makes for a decent set of rules, chapters fall into place nicely each covering a section of gameplay without too much cross referencing (unless necessary). The only problem was the translation from Italian to English which, as one would expect, led to some head scratching but an interpretive reread or quick Q and A on their forum or facebook page clarified any issues with language.

I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel
Slowly Over A Low Flame

[Bandit]

I once read a comic that points out that people are willing to spend several hundred dollars on a smart phone but then quibble over buying an app for a couple dollars to use on that smart phone.

I think we do the opposite with wargaming. We spend thousands of dollars on miniatures and then the first thing on a guy’s list for a ruleset is that it should be cheap, followed by a long list of mostly reasonable expectations.

But I wonder what funds those expectations if it is not the cost of the rulebook?

Cheers,

The Bandit

[Sane Max]

Well yes, I agree BUT there no real reason there should be a correlation between cost of rules and quality, whereas there is with a figure. I know for a fact that people have offered, free and gratis, to proof-read Peter Pig’s rules for them, and been told no thanks. The people who worked on the Alexander the Graet supplement for Warhammer Historical for Jeff Jonas all did it for free. The price of the glossy supplement that resulted was in no way reflected by the amount of work that went in, or the amount of playtesting and error-spotting and issue-correcting and balancing.

To be clear, I actually like a glossy rulebook with pretty pictures, and a quality binding. But you could spiral-bind the 20 or so pages of rules from Black Powder and sell it for a tenner, and it would still be a good game.

I don’t spend £400 on an army and then decide they are no good and throw them in the bin. But I have done that with rules, and I would rather bin a tenner’s worth than a £35 or £40 ruleset.

[Bandit]

Sane Max wrote:

BUT there no real reason there should be a correlation between cost of rules and quality, whereas there is with a figure.

This really makes no sense. Your example is that because you can find a poor rule set that costs a lot then there is no valid relationship between the costs of rule sets and their quality. What goes into pricing a product is drastically more than, “did I have a free proof reader”. As if the proof reader is the majority of time and resources required to produce the rule set, it is obviously not.

I can also understand why a developer doesn’t wish to give away lots of copies “for proof reading” or “for play testing”. Many of those copies never get any quality feedback submitted back to the developer, so really you’re just giving away product to the curious. From the perspective of the developer that feels like an obvious risk, not like an obvious reward.

Let me ask you this:

If Eureka started charging the cost of the tin for AB figures, then one could conclude that there needs be no correlation between the cost of figures and their quality?

How about if [name of any miniature company whose product you don’t like] started selling theirs for oodles of money and was therefore “overcharging” compared to their quality, would that be similar as well?

One must also consider the business model of the developers involved. Peter Pig produces miniatures, their primary product is their miniatures line, rules are an also-ran to drive figure sales. Angel Barracks offers a free rule set *to drive miniatures sales*. Therefore, the approach by each of them will be different than say Sam Mustafa and others (my self included) whose principal product is the rule set.

Lastly, in pricing there is a market problem. In economics 101 one is taught that price should be lowered or raised until supply and demand balance out. However, in more advanced economics classes, a lot of energy is spent learning that *raising* prices can influence demand positively. Customers have expectations of what they will get for $X. If you charge $10 USD for a rulebook, the majority of the market will presume it is not a serious product, and despite how awesome it is, you won’t sell a ton of volume due to its cheap price, in fact, you’ll sell less than if it was $30 USD. Strange but true.

Cheers,

The Bandit

[Lagartija Mike]

@Bandit: I dunno. I cherish my crapped out, made from bootleg Albanian toilet paper old WRG books far in excess of glossy product like Hail Caesar. There’s a weird note of tactile sincerity to that stuff, it’s almost hobby samizdat.

[Bandit]

Lagartija Mike wrote:

@Bandit: I dunno. I cherish my crapped out, made from bootleg Albanian toilet paper old WRG books far in excess of glossy product like Hail Caesar. There’s a weird note of tactile sincerity to that stuff, it’s almost hobby samizdat.

Sure, and I’m not arguing that the “glossed up, hardcover so that I can justify charging $65USD per copy” trend is either 1) good or 2) adds value. I’m just saying that the relationship between value and quality and cost is the same regardless of the product type we are talking about.

There are overpriced, poor quality items in all product genres and there are appropriately priced, high quality products in those same genres.

Several feet from me I have a copy of Corps d’armée (blue cardstock cover) by Geoffrey Wooten. I *think* it cost me $15USD circa 1999. Its fantastic. I know no one who plays it sadly but it is a great rule set and it is certainly no-frills.

I would agree there is little relationship between “production value” of wargaming rules and their quality and their price tag, but I separate production value from actual quality.

Cheers,

The Bandit

[A Lot of Gaul]

Lagartija Mike wrote:

@Bandit: I dunno. I cherish my crapped out, made from bootleg Albanian toilet paper old WRG books far in excess of glossy product like Hail Caesar. There’s a weird note of tactile sincerity to that stuff, it’s almost hobby samizdat.

Hmmm… I sold or binned all of my WRG books many years ago, precisely because to me they were no longer worth the shelf space they were occupying. Meanwhile, I truly cherish my copy of Hail Caesar, and have done so since purchasing it some 4 1/2 years ago.

All of which of course proves nothing more than that wargamers’ tastes in rule sets are often bound up in all sorts of subjective issues that have absolutely nothing to do with any sort of intrinsic value. After all, ‘there’s a weird sort of tactile sincerity to that stuff’ can be read as simply another way of saying, ‘one man’s trash is another man’s treasure.’

Cheers,
Scott

"Ventosa viri restabit." ~ Harry Field

[Sane Max]

I love my copy of DBA . The cover art makes me wonder what exactly the artists of the world did to Phil to justify such an insult. But the contents are excellent info, crudely printed and staple bound, and I can read the lists for pleasure.

I haven’t seen the new version yet, I wonder how much it costs? Mine cost a fiver. and I wonder if it’s substantively better?

[Angel Barracks]

What are peoples expectations when comparing paid for to free?

Free I would have no expectations at all, other than I can understand it, even if that means wading through bad grammar and spelling errors.
Paid for depends on who produced it.
If it is a big shiny company with a good budget I expect a lot, like Black Powder, FOW, GW etc.. I also expect the price to be high.
If it is Stevo and his cheap and cheerful rules, then I expect less in terms of grammar and shiny pictures, but I also expect less in terms of the price.

[Sane Max]

Since there ain’t no such thing as a free lunch, I expect the free ones to pay exactly the same amount of attention as the pricey ones to spelling, grammer, readability and syntax, have explananations and diagrams where the author suspects the rules are unclear and if need be a page of general ‘this is what I intend to happen’

Pictures, glossy paper etc you can keep. And some ‘added value’ features are the exact opposite. A Perfect Bound Hardback? Who thinks that will be a good idea for something that will be constantly opened and shut and left face down on a wargames table? Saddle stitch it, or staple it. and heavy glossy paper perfect binds even worse.

[Angel Barracks]

Sane Max wrote:

? Who thinks that will be a good idea for something that will be constantly opened and shut and left face down on a wargames table?

aaah now that is interesting.
If I can’t play a game from the QRS after a few turns and I need to keep referring back to the rules then it has not met my expectations.
That does not mean it is bad, just not what I wanted…

[Alvin Molethrottler]

Angel Barracks wrote:

What are peoples expectations when comparing paid for to free?

If I’m handing over my hard earned money for a rule book the writer better have thoroughly playtested, spell checked and proof read it. Look at it this way, if you buy what seems to be a delicious tin of soup and then, when you open it, find a turd floating in it you would, quite rightly, feel aggrieved no?

If a set of rules is free then all bets are off and I don’t care about quality because there was no cash involved.

[Not Connard Sage]

Sane Max wrote:

I love my copy of DBA . The cover art makes me wonder what exactly the artists of the world did to Phil to justify such an insult. But the contents are excellent info, crudely printed and staple bound, and I can read the lists for pleasure. I haven’t seen the new version yet, I wonder how much it costs? Mine cost a fiver. and I wonder if it’s substantively better?

 

Best thing since sliced bread mate, honest (I haven’t seen a copy, I’m just going by the glowing, and sometimes breathless, reviews)

HotT v2.1 is worth a punt though.

 

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[Angel Barracks]

Alvin Molethrottler wrote:

if you buy what seems to be a delicious tin of soup and then, when you open it, find a turd floating in it you would, quite rightly, feel aggrieved no?

There is a little part of me that is worried you speak from experience…

[Sane Max]

Alvin Molethrottler wrote:

If a set of rules is free then all bets are off and I don’t care about quality because there was no cash involved.

No, but you have to read them, and wasting even ten minutes of your life going’ these are shit’ is still wasted time. ‘Quality’ in this case is measured by the rules themsleves, and I do not care how free they are if they are unplayable because I cannot bring myself to disentangle the mess they are in, they are of negative worth.

edit hahahahah just seen that the new, hardback version of DBA still has the ‘Up yours Art!’ idiot Hoplite on the cover. It HAS to be on purpose, a small child with a crayon and a bad case of the DT’s could do a better one. C’mon Phil, show us on the illustration where the nasty Artist touched you!

[Not Connard Sage]

I’m so glad I don’t eat tinned soup…

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[Alvin Molethrottler]

Sane Max wrote:

No, but you have to read them, and wasting even ten minutes of your life going’ these are shit’ is still wasted time. ‘Quality’ in this case is measured by the rules themsleves, and I do not care how free they are if they are unplayable because I cannot bring myself to disentangle the mess they are in, they are of negative worth.

That is a good point and one that I had not considered.

[Not Connard Sage]

But we’re quite happy to piss away hours on t’internet.

 

We can’t all be doing this while skiving at work, all the time, can we? 🙂

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[Sane Max]

sure, but I get something out of that! Ohhhhhh I see, on here you mean? I get to feel all important that my fascinating insights into the world of wargaming are being considered and discussed by other like-minded chaps, many of whom can actually write a better sentence than some rules-writers I could name.

[Not Connard Sage]

Sane Max wrote:

sure, but I get something out of that! Ohhhhhh I see, on here you mean? I get to feel all important that my fascinating insights into the world of wargaming are being considered and discussed by other like-minded chaps, many of whom can actually write a better sentence than some rules-writers I could name.

 

Have you got a link to that insightful, erudite post of yours? I must have missed among the general waffle and white noise we both usually generate 🙂

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[A Lot of Gaul]

Sane Max wrote:

I love my copy of DBA… I haven’t seen the new version yet, I wonder how much it costs?

A quick search online reveals that the most recent edition of the rulebook is hardbound in A4 format, has 144 glossy pages, and retails for £19.99/US$42.

"Ventosa viri restabit." ~ Harry Field

[Lagartija Mike]

In honor of the righteous squalor of bygone rules, mine will be illustrated by dedicated Taiwanese crippled children from the Incandescent Bliss Industrial Gimp Village and Monkey Jungle. Their “Three Finger Minimum Guarantee” is justly famous.

[Author]

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