Home Forums Horse and Musket Napoleonic Russian Order of Battle at Eylau, 1807

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  • #10609
    Bandit
    Participant

    I’m comparing the following sources:

    James Arnold
    Petre
    Digby Smith
    Wikipedia

    Why Wikipedia? Because it cites the Russian language source Vasil’ev*.

    All of these are vastly different. Anyone have any reasons to share as to why one might be better than another? Specifically for the Russians.

    * AA, “COMPOSITION of ALLIED TROOPS at EYLAU: List of the Allied Russian and Prussian troops participating in the Battle of Preussisch-Eylau January 26 and 27 (February 7 and 8) 1807”, Imperator No. 11 pp. 11–14 (2007)

    #10905
    Jonathan Gingerich
    Participant

    Thanks for the reference.  This contribution by Vasilyev doesn’t seem to be very widely disseminated.

    I assume asking whether to go with Petre, Smith, Arnold, or Vasilyev  for a Russian OB is merely rhetorical?

    I don’t have most of those, can you point out some of the most glaring differences?

    #10917
    Bandit
    Participant

    I assume asking whether to go with Petre, Smith, Arnold, or Vasilyev  for a Russian OB is merely rhetorical?

    Well, it wasn’t meant to be but perhaps it has become so :-p

    can you point out some of the most glaring differences?

    Arnold and Vasilyev vary the most. It would seem that Vasilyev is referring to the organization prior to the battle while Arnold makes it clear he is talking about the organization at the battle. The biggest differences would be that Vasilyev has the cavalry brigades and artillery batteries assigned to their parent divisions while Arnold has them grouped as separately integrated commands. There are also some differences with the infantry brigade and division assignments. Digby Smith seems to be following Vasilyev. Arnold’s order of battle (mostly) jives better with the location of units on the field.

    #10922
    Cerdic
    Participant

    Sounds like a right old can of worms……

    #10989
    Jonathan Gingerich
    Participant

    Ah, I thought you were suggesting there were unit level discrepancies.

    I would suggest going with Arnold, as the Wikipedia compilation does not integrate Vasilyev’s notes.

    #12158
    Jonathan Gingerich
    Participant

    Well I just read Crisis in the Snows and I’ve got ahold of Imperator too.  Tricky.  Vasilyev has some excellent information on who was actually commanding, but blows some easy ones like including the 26th Jaeger or some of the Don Cossack regts. who weren’t there.  Arnold offers the actually higher level command structure on the day of battle, but doesn’t get into the brigading.  And he misses some of the things Vasilyev uncovered.  Neither is definitive.

    #12187
    Jonathan Gingerich
    Participant

    I’ve discovered Reinertsen has discussed a lot of the issues on Napoleon-series.org and it’s very persuasive.

    #12243
    Bandit
    Participant

    Jonathan,

    Thanks for the direction. I have always found searching the Napoleon-Series.org to be incredibly difficult but I did manage to find the posts you refer to.

    Researching Allied OBs is a real rats nest and the conversation between Reinertsen, Goetz and Mikaberidze illustrates that well…

    #12257
    Jonathan Gingerich
    Participant

    Well remember if you drop site:napoleon-series.org into a Google search, it will search just that site.

    #13852
    Jonathan Gingerich
    Participant

    I’ve just posted a Russian OB for Eylau – it’s a synthesis of Arnold & Reinertsen’s structure with Vasilyev’s commanders.  Take a look and see what you think.

    http://zaotlichiye.net63.net/EylauOB.html

    #13906
    Bandit
    Participant

    Jonathan,

    Your composite of them is a heck of a lot better cited than mine is. Your conclusions and mine differ in a handful of ways. In broad strokes here is what I’ve got:

    Right Wing: Tuchkov
    5th Division: Foch
    Former Rearguard (brigade detached from 7th Division): Markov I

    Center (3rd Division): Osten-Sacken I
    Brigade: Titov II
    Brigade: Dolgorukov V

    Center (8th Division): Essen III
    Cavalry Brigade: Glebov-Streshnev
    Infantry Brigade: Engelhardt I
    Infantry Brigade: Levitsky

    Left Wing: Ostermann-Tolstoi
    2nd Division: Sukin II
    6th Division: Baggovut

    Reserves: Dokhturov
    4th Division: Somov
    7th Division: Zapol’skii

    For artillery commanders running the grand batteries I’ve got: Sievers, Löwenstern and Stavitsky I.The other formations I’m not listing line up almost completely with yours.

    One quandary is that Pahen III is commanding the cavalry on one wing while commanding a brigade on the other wing subordinate to someone… You able to figure anything out about that?

    I think the largest difference between yours and mine is that I don’t conclude that Essen III reports to Tuchkov I but that they each ran separate commands. I *think* I concluded that from something I read in Arnold but it was months ago and I am foggy.

    #13911
    Jonathan Gingerich
    Participant

    Bandit,

    A.&R. mention that the Russian divisions were grouped in corps sometime in the prior days.  Unfortunately they don’t specify what they were, but it seems clear the 5th and 8th formed a corps under Tuchkov, at least nominally.  Not sure how it worked in practise.

    Fock was an adjutant, so it seems reasonable that he would be put in charge of the 5th division once Tuchkov was promoted.  Vasilyev has him subordinate to Rezvyy, but I will have to more carefully translate [i.e. not just drop it in Google] the St George commendation – it may indicate he was in charge of infantry and not the battery.

    I applied my own guesses to the 3d Div as neither A.&R. nor V. are convincing.

    Sukin-2 taking charge of the 2d division is perfectly plausible although neither A.&r. nor V. suggest it.  Can you dig up any data?

    Same for Zapolsky and the 7th?

    Sievers was chief of the 5th Artillery Brigade, but Kutaisov was definitely at the battle and would have outranked him.  If Fock is not commanding the center battery, then Loewenstern would most likely be there.  Stavitsky was chief of the 2d Artillery Brigade and would likely be second to Rezvyy if present.  But would he rather run around with his horse company?

    I have Pahlen-3 on the right.  I notice I forgot to mention my conventions – italic when officers are formally located but not physically present and ()’s where they are taking additional responsibilities.

     

     

     

     

    #13940
    Bandit
    Participant

    Sukin-2 taking charge of the 2d division is perfectly plausible although neither A.&r. nor V. suggest it.  Can you dig up any data?

    Same for Zapolsky and the 7th?

    These two were conjecture on my part.

    The artillery I believe I drew from Arnold.

    #13975
    Jonathan Gingerich
    Participant

    I’ve revised it to have Fock commanding the 5th division, and Loewenstern in the center.  I think that makes us essentially congruent.

    My post on Napoleon-Series got more than 100 hits after Alexandre announced it on TMP.  And I’m basking in the reflected glow of all those thank yous! 

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