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This topic contains 21 replies, has 15 voices, and was last updated by Devon Start Devon Start 3 months, 2 weeks ago.

Viewing 22 posts - 1 through 22 (of 22 total)
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  • #118906
    Angel Barracks
    Angel Barracks
    Moderator

    Ignorance and fear of the unknown stops family from gaming due to interference from school.

    #118909
    Guy Farrish
    Guy Farrish
    Participant

    Difficult territory Michael.

    The school appear to have overreacted but the police seem to have been sane and proportionate about it.

    I can’t say whether the reaction of the family was proportionate – bumping into the anti-terror police is no doubt unpleasant however sensible they were.

    Is this a completely inappropriate intrusion into private lives, or a sensible enquiry into a potentially dangerous direction a young life may have been taking?

    That is a political and cultural decision about which there are many discussions to be had.

    Do you want them on TWW?

    (I suspect a sensible interview with the head should have sorted this out in half an hour – but I don’t know the child, the school or the surrounding circumstances).

    • This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by Guy Farrish Guy Farrish.
    #118911
    Mike
    Mike
    Keymaster

    That is a political and cultural decision about which there are many discussions to be had.

    Do you want them on TWW?

    Not especially, more sympathy and support for the affected family.

    #118913
    Rhoderic
    Rhoderic
    Participant

    Sounds like an exceptional misunderstanding by the school faculty, possibly compounded by rules and institutional dysfunctions, being somewhat misrepresented in this video as a case of teachers being completely divorced from reality on political grounds which are assumed or perceived by the makers of the video. Teachers don’t have it easy.

    I can see why the makers of the video reacted the way they did. I, too, would feel it was a violation if anti-terror police came to interview me under caution because I’m a miniatures gamer. It still doesn’t mean I think they’re representing the teachers’ side of things accurately – especially as they represent the teachers as having basically no rational faculties whatsoever, which I don’t believe. It may have had nothing to do with politics and everything to do with misunderstandings in the difficult reality teachers have to work in.

    So, my sympathies go both ways in that ugly little mess. The world can be shit sometimes, and it’s no one’s fault.

    #118917
    PatG
    PatG
    Participant

    Given the current political environment in the UK, I don’t think the school and police responses were completely out of line – remember Jo Cox. As others have said, we only have one side of the story. It is entirely possible that the intervention and meeting were called prevent a young man from being radicalized by an extreme political ideology – we simply don’t know.

    What we do know, is that whatever the intent, what Vespasian, his son and his family experienced, was distressing for them, and that is unfortunate.

    About all we can do is be sane and calm representatives of our hobby.

    #118920
    Ochoin
    Ochoin
    Participant

    Hasn’t there always been some sort of misguided attack on gaming?

    If it isn’t a manifestation of Fascism, or encouraging warmongering, or a GW-inspired cult, it’s puerile, too boy-specific or constantly dying.

    The case cited seems to be an isolated instance sparked by officious school managers. Until someone, ironically in uniform, comes to take my figures, I won’t care.

     

    donald

    #118921

    Thomaston
    Participant

    I had to chuckle a little ar around 4:30, they were critizied for alternate history fascism and decided to get back into gaming with 40K? Whait until the school hear about the Imperium of MAN.

    I can sympathize with these guys those, when something you’re passionate aboutis taken out of context or misunderstood in a strong way it really kills the mood.

    Tired is enough.

    #118922
    Guy Farrish
    Guy Farrish
    Participant

    Schools in the UK are under enormous pressure to identify radicalisation of children, from whatever source -and Far Right groups have come more and more under Security Service and Anti-Terrorist Command attention recently.

    I don’t know the circumstances of the school – its locality, cultural mix and what may or may not have been going on in class, but seeing a BUF flag (not unlike many current neo-Nazi’s symbols) probably flipped a few quite legitimate switches.

    As I said before a quick visit to the Head should probably have sorted this in-house. Then again I don’t know the circumstances ‘in-house’.

    It’s easy to blame a school which hasn’t had a say and is probably under strict instructions not to comment, but it doesn’t seem fair to pass judgement.

    I wonder however if moving towards the STASI approach of everyone watching everyone else is the way to go in a liberal democracy. I understand the need for security. I worry about the cultural cost we seem prepared to pay at the moment.

    • This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by Guy Farrish Guy Farrish.
    #118924
    Thorsten Frank
    Thorsten Frank
    Participant

    I hate to say that but given the fact that there are lot´s of possible threats (from a lot of sides) and the limited assets of the state there´s something wrong with this. I can speak, as always, speak only from the German pov but having experienced something similar but in a drug AND Djihadist related context I´ve learned something about some of the techniques “services” do use. The police don´t come to you because of one unrelated case and if your child´s behaviour is off the rail there´s more likely a talk with the “youth office” (don´t know if there´s such a thing in the UK but I suppose it´s the same as here) in such a case.  In my case it took years of unrelated things that I landed on “the list” and as I learned later it wasn´t the first time.
    I wasn´t there and I couldn´t say what happened in Imperator Vespasian´s case but for me it seems like just a large misunderstanding from all involved sides that escelated in an unpleaseant way.

    "In strange grammar this one writes" - Master Yoda

    #118925

    Dan Kennedy
    Participant

    Given the current political environment in the UK, I don’t think the school and police responses were completely out of line – remember Jo Cox. As others have said, we only have one side of the story. It is entirely possible that the intervention and meeting were called prevent a young man from being radicalized by an extreme political ideology – we simply don’t know. What we do know, is that whatever the intent, what Vespasian, his son and his family experienced, was distressing for them, and that is unfortunate. About all we can do is be sane and calm representatives of our hobby.

     

    It sounds like no blame can be attached to the police – indeed if you watch the video they stay that the police have taken action against the teacher concerned and they won’t discuss it for legal reasons (likely a charge of wasting police time).

    Police have to respond if called in by the school, on this occasion it sounds like they were doing their job properly. The school, on the other hand…

    I do appreciate that schools, social workers and doctors are placed under ridiculous pressure to report likely radicalised behaviour, but I cannot for the life of me understand how common sense did not prevail early on in this instance.

    #118926
    Robey Jenkins
    Robey Jenkins
    Participant

    [quote]Do you want them on TWW?

    Not especially, more sympathy and support for the affected family[/quote]

    /endthread

    #118927
    Darkest Star Games
    Darkest Star Games
    Participant

    I really appreciate the people on this forum, especially their ability to look at both sides and state things rationally and with forethought.  This is why I come here.

    I too feel badly for the family, they were obviously shaken up pretty badly and are probably still watched by the government in some way (you know, just in case).  And honestly, I can totally see the overeaction by the faculty as being both cautionary for good reasons as well as off the rails.  There is a fine line.  In the end, it does feel to me that the faculty went to an extreme over what should have been something easily cleared up.

    EDIT: deleted a bit of a rant.

    "I saw this in a cartoon once, but I'm pretty sure I can do it..."

    #118933
    Rhoderic
    Rhoderic
    Participant

    I do appreciate that schools, social workers and doctors are placed under ridiculous pressure to report likely radicalised behaviour, but I cannot for the life of me understand how common sense did not prevail early on in this instance.

    If I’ve understood the video correctly (and I must account for the possibility that I may not have, but then the explanation in the video is somewhat opaque), the teachers weren’t really reacting to their student talking about miniatures or wargaming. They were reacting to him talking about wanting to buy fascist flags. Not miniature wargaming flags, but real-world life-size ones. Yes, he wanted them for a completely different reason than to display fascist sympathies (and I won’t get into the right or wrong of “role-playing” or “play-acting” historical or pseudo-historical fascists with relevant paraphernalia at the wargaming table just for larks) but that’s the point where the misunderstanding becomes understandable in itself. That’s the point where rules and instructions-from-on-high begin to kick in for the teachers having to actually deal with the situation hands-on.

    Even taking into account the fact that the anti-terror police were unhappy with the reporting teachers, I think that also says something about the impossible situations teachers find themselves in sometimes. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. The last to get resources, the first to get blame.

    #118937
    Darkest Star Games
    Darkest Star Games
    Participant

    Not miniature wargaming flags, but real-world life-size ones.

    I may have missed that, I was trying to watch it surreptitiously while in the office!  That I could understand causing a stir, but still it should have been easily worked out (and I can see it being a big issue if said flags were brought to a gaming function at school, but is it anyone’s business if they have them at home?  Then what about German ww2 artifacts…?).  I guess our current environment, especially here in the US with the Anti-Fasc and White Nats going at it all of the time, is pushing a lot of extremes.

    "I saw this in a cartoon once, but I'm pretty sure I can do it..."

    #118939
    Mike
    Mike
    Keymaster

    /endthread

    Could be looking at that.

    #118940
    Rhoderic
    Rhoderic
    Participant

    Not miniature wargaming flags, but real-world life-size ones.

    I may have missed that, I was trying to watch it surreptitiously while in the office! That I could understand causing a stir, but still it should have been easily worked out

    Certainly it seems to be exceptional, with how far off the rails it went and how serious it became for the student and his family. One in a hundred, one in a thousand? Something like that, I’m sure. Of a hundred or a thousand kids who talked to their teachers about having a hobby that’s in some way to do with fascists/Nazis/jihadists/whatever in a purely fictional context, that one got burnt.

    #118945

    /endthread

    Could be looking at that.

    Nah — everyone here evidently has a functioning brain.

    #118951

    McKinstry
    Participant

    We all are ultimately dependent on people making judgements for so many things as we simply go through life in a fairly complex modern world that on occasion, well meaning folks will botch a call. It appears that over time sanity prevailed and while it is certainly regrettable that the family experienced such distress, I’d hesitate to draw a larger societal lesson and simply chalk it up to somebody goofed.

    I’m an EMT (volunteer fire department type) and legally required to report certain things that may or may not be a legal issue. You try your best but nobody is infallible.

     

     

    Never wrestle with a pig. You both get muddy and the pig just likes it.

    #118956

    Les Hammond
    Participant

    Not sure I would’ve sold all my historical armies as a result of this incident…not that a VBCW can be counted as that anyway.

    6mm France 1940

    http://les1940.blogspot.co.uk/
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/386297688467965/

    #118964

    I dunno — probably as historical as some Ancients armies I’ve seen.

    “My coat? Oh — er, yes, thank you.”

    #118965
    Devon Start
    Devon Start
    Participant

    /endthread

    Could be looking at that.

    Nah — everyone here evidently has a functioning brain.

    agreed this is a great conversation.

    #118966
    Devon Start
    Devon Start
    Participant

    ive said this elsewhere but in the US there is an issue with people shooting up schools and churches and movie theaters and garlic fesitivals, all sorts of places that shouldnt be getting shot up. The people who tend to do this(though not always) espouse white supremacist rhetoric.  While this did not happen in the US, i would say this is not too far off of what should have happened.   the only part really is how the school and how the cops interacted. The school should have had whatever convesation wiht the family that the cops had and ended this in house. Do i think the school deserves legal action? no, thats assinine.   they did their job and if this kid had been found to own guns or knives or whatever else, or was about to do something horrible, we would be having a slightly different conversation. Thats important to all of this too.

     

     

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