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This topic contains 21 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by grizzlymc grizzlymc 6 days, 9 hours ago.

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  • #94841
    Ochoin
    Ochoin
    Participant

    I hope I’m not being a pain with these incessant WW2 questions.

    It’s the flavour du jour for me & although I am trying to do some catch up reading, the wargamer’s perspective from here is valuable.

    My late war British have been trounced twice by a curtailed German force. I’ve had them in defence but even so, they don’t really have the numbers and, most importantly, some real power. It comes down to their tank force: 2 X Stuarts…..which need to be hidden away from all German tanks.

    4 x Cromwells…….fast & have some hitting power but not overly well armoured.

    2 X Churchills…..hard to kill but so slow the game’s nearly over before they can make an impact.

    Keeping in mind I don’t want really much in the way of expansion, my mind turned to one or two Fireflys. However, it occurred to me that maybe it would be better to try to play a different game to the Germans, with their better armour albeit in smaller numbers, and add some self-propelled artillery. I should add that  I am quite keen to have my 3 field forces with different positives & negatives, if possible, to give a game more flavour.

    The Toy Soldier Company are about to release a 3 model box of Sextons. I know the British had a lot of success  with their artillery in the late war.

    So how about adding three Sextons which can fire in Indirect mode but also maybe try some “Shoot & Scoot” over open sights?

    I think if you can take out at least some of the German armour before it comes too close, than you have a chance to outflank, overwhelm with numbers….just use the existing British tanks with some imagination &, hopefully, some success.

     

    Your thoughts?

     

    donald

    #94843
    grizzlymc
    grizzlymc
    Participant

    Try a mix of Jacksons and 17 pdrs to keep the hun tanks at bay.  25 pounders should be able to keep people’s head down.

    #94848
    cmnash
    cmnash
    Participant

    Do you have any anti-tank guns to support your armour? as you’re defending, use your Churchills as bait for the german armour and ambush them with hidden anti-tank guns, if you can do that in your rules of course

    If you are feeling like winning for a change, use 17-pdrs – that should ruin any german tank’s day … 

    .

    #94849
    deephorse
    deephorse
    Participant

    Sextons are not going to fare well against the German tanks you’ve shown us in another topic.  Make a Forward Observation Officer stand and have your artillery off table.  Save money too!  Shell the Germans, or mask your advance with smoke.  Limit your German armour to just the Panzer IVs, you seem to have four or five of them.

    #94851

    Etranger
    Participant

    If your Sextons are mixing it with German armour then something has gone badly wrong with the plan. One of Britain’s great strengths in NWE & Italy was its great flexibility and rapidity of response. Any significant German armour concentration would be rapidly pounded by large numbers of field (25 pounders), medium (5.5″) and heavy artillery (7.2″, some US Lend Lease 8″ guns), up to and including battleships. The American system was a little different but just as effective. A single FOO could dump an enormous amount of firepower on a suitable target. This gives some perspective on the RA. http://nigelef.tripod.com

    ‘Mike’ was a Regimental Target
    ‘Uncle’ was a Divisional Target (i.e. three Field Regiments, though sometimes with AGRA assets thrown in)
    ‘Victor’ was a Corps Target (i.e. typically all the Field Regiments in the Corps, with AGRA and other assets thrown in)
    ‘William’ and ‘Yoke’ were even higher-level missions, with a truly terrifying weight of fire. https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/mass-use-of-artillery.243032/page-4

    A tank concentration could expect a Mike Target allocation. German players tend to complain when an AGRA shoots on a Yoke Target, but the RA was Britain’s secret weapon in WWII. http://www.fireandfury.com/artillerytutorial/artybrits.shtml (one of RMDs pieces IIRC)

    When they’re all built, I will be able to put a full Field Regiment RA on the table, 24 guns … 

    • This reply was modified 1 week ago by  Etranger.
    #94854
    Jemima Fawr
    Jemima Fawr
    Participant

    Have a look on the F&F website for one example of where things did indeed go spectacularly wrong and Sextons mixed it with German armour – Maisoncelles (during Op Bluecoat).

    My wargames blog: http://www.jemimafawr.co.uk/

    #94855
    Ochoin
    Ochoin
    Participant

    Thanks for the solid opinions.

    To make it clear, I don’t want some unassailable superiority for any of my field forces. The joy my pals & I will have is in fairly balanced games (through scenarios, with an eye of field strengths) that will challenge us to use what we have to seek out advantages. And I will “command”, at some time, the Germans, the US & the British.

    I also don’t want to expand the size of the armies to any ridiculous extent. I have one 6 pounder AT gun (& may get another). I do think I’m only one weapon system away from getting what I want.

    @ Deep Horse I do like my off table artillery on table: for the look of things.

    @ ET. What you describe is what I think the Sextons can provide. They can be “off table” & controlled by the FAO allowed in BKC. But I could also move them up to allow the various CO & HQ commands to use them in direct fire. Carefully, of course. Their range (just) outshoots a PZiv. I don’t plan to use them as spearheads (!!) but as part of a divers attack including infantry, airpower, armour & artillery.

    @ Mark. If they end up mixing it with real tanks (ie decent armour, proper turrets) they will deserve what they get. Shoot & scoot is very possible with the BKC rules.

    At any rate, lots to think over.

     

    donald

     

    #94856
    Ochoin
    Ochoin
    Participant

    BTW this is one hell of a forum. Where else can you get such excellent WW2 advice & help?

    #94859
    willz
    willz
    Participant

    When gaming WW2 I have found having an anti-tank gun section on wheels most useful to combat potential threats.  Either British, German, Russian Rather than self propelled I have found towed and wheeled anti-tank gun units are ideal for ambushes (harder to spot) these units can be positioned, hidden and then move small distances as required to attack potential threats from different fronts.

    #94860
    deephorse
    deephorse
    Participant

    “Have a look on the F&F website for one example of where things did indeed go spectacularly wrong and Sextons mixed it with German armour – Maisoncelles (during Op Bluecoat).”

     

    12 Sextons and 6 17pdr M10s v 3 Panthers.  Even I would happily abandon my usual Germans to play the Brits in that scenario!

    • This reply was modified 1 week ago by deephorse deephorse.
    #94862

    Etranger
    Participant

    Mark, presumably the Sextons had AP shot (or something similar) as part of their ammunition loadout? I know that the towed 25 pounders usually had a few, and of course were used as ATG in the desert for a while.

    • This reply was modified 1 week ago by  Etranger.
    #94865
    Not Connard Sage
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    What do you call SPA on the table? An easy target. Especially Sextons, they’re big, slow, have poor gun elevation…and if a Sexton outranges a PzIV there’s something wrong with your rules.

    Invest in Fireflys. Or anything else mounting a 17pdr, and keep your artillery a long way from the action.

    Personally, I’d ditch the romantic notions of fielding gallant British AFVs, and buy as many M4A2/M4A4 as I could. Lose the Stuarts and buy Greyhounds. Same gun, similar life expectancy, but at least they’re usually cheaper.

     

    And this is silly I know, but try playing British SPA in World of Tanks.  😉

     

     

     

     

    "I go online sometimes, but everyone's spelling is really bad. It's... depressing."

    #94881

    Les Hammond
    Participant

    Easy. If you don’t want to start an arms race by adding Fireflies just restrict the Germans to a single Tiger or Panther 

    6mm France 1940

    http://les1940.blogspot.co.uk/
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/386297688467965/

    #94884
    Ochoin
    Ochoin
    Participant

    just restrict the Germans to a single Tiger or Panther

    I have 2 of each & in the recent games, I introduced a mechanism of a dice throw (odds & evens) to see if mechanical breakdown, lack of fuel or earlier aerial interdiction meant non-arrival. It worked very well but in both games the Germans were very unlucky. I shudder to think what a few more “evens” might bring.

     

    donald

     

    #94889

    zippyfusenet
    Participant

    As others have said, the 17pdr AT gun was the tool for killing Tigers and Panthers in a firefight. The Sherman Firefly was the most common 17pdr tracked vehicle.

    If you prefer SPAT, the 17pdr M-10 was called an Achilles:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/17pdr_SP_Achilles

    If you want to make things more challenging for yourself, another common 17pdr SPAT was the Archer:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer_(tank_destroyer)

    Lose the Stuarts and buy Greyhounds. Same gun, similar life expectancy, but at least they’re usually cheaper.

    I realize I’m talking wargaming here not war. But. In a series of recent micro-armor games using the Jagdpanther rules, the Stuarts proved surprisingly useful. The M5 Stuart’s frontal armor is nearly as good as the M4 Sherman’s, just short of invulnerable to 20mm fire under the JP rules. The Stuarts could consistently kill German 20mm-armed ACs and half-tracks at any range they could see them, losing only an occasional Stuart to a lucky penetration. The Greyhound has thin frontal armor like the German ACs, so was less useful.

    You'll shoot your eye out, kid!

    #94890
    Ochoin
    Ochoin
    Participant

    That’s interesting, Zippy. I say again, I’m not after some Super-Killer-Ninja army & I quite like to find ways & means to successfully use what I have.

    I’ve ordered the PSC Sextons & will see how that works out.

    If it’s a bust, Armourfast make a 2 vehicle Achilles set & I’ll probably go that way.

    Achilles

    And there’s also this: a likely purchase.

    http://theplasticsoldiercompany.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_37_38_42_64&products_id=634

     

    donald

     

    donald

    #94891

    Etranger
    Participant

    Yes, you need 6 pounders. Every British infantry battalion came with a platoon of them, so a company could usually expect a section in support. https://www.britishmilitaryhistory.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2017/10/2_-Infantry-Battalion-1944-1945.pdf The PSC model gives you a full section.

    Using the APDS rounds that they had in 1944, Tigers and Panthers were vulnerable.

    Borrowed from https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/320188-what-is-the-actual-performance-of-qf-17-apds/ original source cited in thread.

    #94894
    MartinR
    MartinR
    Participant

    As above, you need antitank guns. Each infantry battalion had six 6pdr, and the divisional AT battalion had another 48 guns (a mix of 6pdr, 17pdr and SP mounts depending on period and division).

    It was also common to attach sections of SP 17pdrs to 75mm armed tank squadrons.

    "Mistakes in the initial deployment cannot be rectified" - Helmuth von Moltke

    #94895
    Ochoin
    Ochoin
    Participant

    Yes, you need 6 pounders. .

     

    I do have one…….

    Can I wait until the War Budget recovers in order to buy some more or am I going to get some “Lend-Lease” ATG from you fellows?

    (Just keep in mind, the P&P to OZ is exhorbitant).

     

    cheers donald

    #94900

    Etranger
    Participant

    $34 plus P & P at War and Peace Games. You know you want to … 

    https://www.warandpeacegames.com.au/Plastic_Soldier_1_72nd_British_6_pdr_anti_tank_g_p/ptsb2007.htm

    #94918
    Ochoin
    Ochoin
    Participant

    Vade retro me, satana.

    #94920
    grizzlymc
    grizzlymc
    Participant

    He won’t.  One 17pdr would be a good start.  Remember that the divisional ATk support included both 17 pdr, 6 pdr and SPs.

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