10/07/2018 at 09:13 #94841
I hope I’m not being a pain with these incessant WW2 questions.
It’s the flavour du jour for me & although I am trying to do some catch up reading, the wargamer’s perspective from here is valuable.
My late war British have been trounced twice by a curtailed German force. I’ve had them in defence but even so, they don’t really have the numbers and, most importantly, some real power. It comes down to their tank force: 2 X Stuarts…..which need to be hidden away from all German tanks.
4 x Cromwells…….fast & have some hitting power but not overly well armoured.
2 X Churchills…..hard to kill but so slow the game’s nearly over before they can make an impact.
Keeping in mind I don’t want really much in the way of expansion, my mind turned to one or two Fireflys. However, it occurred to me that maybe it would be better to try to play a different game to the Germans, with their better armour albeit in smaller numbers, and add some self-propelled artillery. I should add that I am quite keen to have my 3 field forces with different positives & negatives, if possible, to give a game more flavour.
The Toy Soldier Company are about to release a 3 model box of Sextons. I know the British had a lot of success with their artillery in the late war.
So how about adding three Sextons which can fire in Indirect mode but also maybe try some “Shoot & Scoot” over open sights?
I think if you can take out at least some of the German armour before it comes too close, than you have a chance to outflank, overwhelm with numbers….just use the existing British tanks with some imagination &, hopefully, some success.
donald10/07/2018 at 10:00 #94843
Try a mix of Jacksons and 17 pdrs to keep the hun tanks at bay. 25 pounders should be able to keep people’s head down.10/07/2018 at 11:59 #94848
Do you have any anti-tank guns to support your armour? as you’re defending, use your Churchills as bait for the german armour and ambush them with hidden anti-tank guns, if you can do that in your rules of course
If you are feeling like winning for a change, use 17-pdrs – that should ruin any german tank’s day …
.10/07/2018 at 12:35 #94849
Sextons are not going to fare well against the German tanks you’ve shown us in another topic. Make a Forward Observation Officer stand and have your artillery off table. Save money too! Shell the Germans, or mask your advance with smoke. Limit your German armour to just the Panzer IVs, you seem to have four or five of them.10/07/2018 at 13:16 #94851
If your Sextons are mixing it with German armour then something has gone badly wrong with the plan. One of Britain’s great strengths in NWE & Italy was its great flexibility and rapidity of response. Any significant German armour concentration would be rapidly pounded by large numbers of field (25 pounders), medium (5.5″) and heavy artillery (7.2″, some US Lend Lease 8″ guns), up to and including battleships. The American system was a little different but just as effective. A single FOO could dump an enormous amount of firepower on a suitable target. This gives some perspective on the RA. http://nigelef.tripod.com
‘Mike’ was a Regimental Target
‘Uncle’ was a Divisional Target (i.e. three Field Regiments, though sometimes with AGRA assets thrown in)
‘Victor’ was a Corps Target (i.e. typically all the Field Regiments in the Corps, with AGRA and other assets thrown in)
‘William’ and ‘Yoke’ were even higher-level missions, with a truly terrifying weight of fire. https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/mass-use-of-artillery.243032/page-4
A tank concentration could expect a Mike Target allocation. German players tend to complain when an AGRA shoots on a Yoke Target, but the RA was Britain’s secret weapon in WWII. http://www.fireandfury.com/artillerytutorial/artybrits.shtml (one of RMDs pieces IIRC)
When they’re all built, I will be able to put a full Field Regiment RA on the table, 24 guns …
10/07/2018 at 14:37 #94854
- This reply was modified 1 week ago by Etranger.
Have a look on the F&F website for one example of where things did indeed go spectacularly wrong and Sextons mixed it with German armour – Maisoncelles (during Op Bluecoat).
My wargames blog: http://www.jemimafawr.co.uk/10/07/2018 at 14:39 #94855
Thanks for the solid opinions.
To make it clear, I don’t want some unassailable superiority for any of my field forces. The joy my pals & I will have is in fairly balanced games (through scenarios, with an eye of field strengths) that will challenge us to use what we have to seek out advantages. And I will “command”, at some time, the Germans, the US & the British.
I also don’t want to expand the size of the armies to any ridiculous extent. I have one 6 pounder AT gun (& may get another). I do think I’m only one weapon system away from getting what I want.
@ Deep Horse I do like my off table artillery on table: for the look of things.
@ ET. What you describe is what I think the Sextons can provide. They can be “off table” & controlled by the FAO allowed in BKC. But I could also move them up to allow the various CO & HQ commands to use them in direct fire. Carefully, of course. Their range (just) outshoots a PZiv. I don’t plan to use them as spearheads (!!) but as part of a divers attack including infantry, airpower, armour & artillery.
@ Mark. If they end up mixing it with real tanks (ie decent armour, proper turrets) they will deserve what they get. Shoot & scoot is very possible with the BKC rules.
At any rate, lots to think over.
donald10/07/2018 at 14:44 #94856
BTW this is one hell of a forum. Where else can you get such excellent WW2 advice & help?10/07/2018 at 16:08 #94859
When gaming WW2 I have found having an anti-tank gun section on wheels most useful to combat potential threats. Either British, German, Russian Rather than self propelled I have found towed and wheeled anti-tank gun units are ideal for ambushes (harder to spot) these units can be positioned, hidden and then move small distances as required to attack potential threats from different fronts.10/07/2018 at 16:27 #94860
“Have a look on the F&F website for one example of where things did indeed go spectacularly wrong and Sextons mixed it with German armour – Maisoncelles (during Op Bluecoat).”
12 Sextons and 6 17pdr M10s v 3 Panthers. Even I would happily abandon my usual Germans to play the Brits in that scenario!
10/07/2018 at 16:38 #94862
- This reply was modified 1 week ago by deephorse.
Mark, presumably the Sextons had AP shot (or something similar) as part of their ammunition loadout? I know that the towed 25 pounders usually had a few, and of course were used as ATG in the desert for a while.
10/07/2018 at 17:28 #94865
- This reply was modified 1 week ago by Etranger.
Not Connard SageParticipant
What do you call SPA on the table? An easy target. Especially Sextons, they’re big, slow, have poor gun elevation…and if a Sexton outranges a PzIV there’s something wrong with your rules.
Invest in Fireflys. Or anything else mounting a 17pdr, and keep your artillery a long way from the action.
Personally, I’d ditch the romantic notions of fielding gallant British AFVs, and buy as many M4A2/M4A4 as I could. Lose the Stuarts and buy Greyhounds. Same gun, similar life expectancy, but at least they’re usually cheaper.
And this is silly I know, but try playing British SPA in World of Tanks. 😉
"I go online sometimes, but everyone's spelling is really bad. It's... depressing."10/07/2018 at 21:12 #94881
Easy. If you don’t want to start an arms race by adding Fireflies just restrict the Germans to a single Tiger or Panther
- This reply was modified 1 week ago by Les Hammond.
6mm France 1940
https://www.facebook.com/groups/386297688467965/10/07/2018 at 22:26 #94884
just restrict the Germans to a single Tiger or Panther
I have 2 of each & in the recent games, I introduced a mechanism of a dice throw (odds & evens) to see if mechanical breakdown, lack of fuel or earlier aerial interdiction meant non-arrival. It worked very well but in both games the Germans were very unlucky. I shudder to think what a few more “evens” might bring.
donald11/07/2018 at 01:18 #94889
As others have said, the 17pdr AT gun was the tool for killing Tigers and Panthers in a firefight. The Sherman Firefly was the most common 17pdr tracked vehicle.
If you prefer SPAT, the 17pdr M-10 was called an Achilles:
If you want to make things more challenging for yourself, another common 17pdr SPAT was the Archer:
Lose the Stuarts and buy Greyhounds. Same gun, similar life expectancy, but at least they’re usually cheaper.
I realize I’m talking wargaming here not war. But. In a series of recent micro-armor games using the Jagdpanther rules, the Stuarts proved surprisingly useful. The M5 Stuart’s frontal armor is nearly as good as the M4 Sherman’s, just short of invulnerable to 20mm fire under the JP rules. The Stuarts could consistently kill German 20mm-armed ACs and half-tracks at any range they could see them, losing only an occasional Stuart to a lucky penetration. The Greyhound has thin frontal armor like the German ACs, so was less useful.
You'll shoot your eye out, kid!11/07/2018 at 03:55 #94890
That’s interesting, Zippy. I say again, I’m not after some Super-Killer-Ninja army & I quite like to find ways & means to successfully use what I have.
I’ve ordered the PSC Sextons & will see how that works out.
If it’s a bust, Armourfast make a 2 vehicle Achilles set & I’ll probably go that way.
And there’s also this: a likely purchase.
donald11/07/2018 at 06:08 #94891
Yes, you need 6 pounders. Every British infantry battalion came with a platoon of them, so a company could usually expect a section in support. https://www.britishmilitaryhistory.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2017/10/2_-Infantry-Battalion-1944-1945.pdf The PSC model gives you a full section.
Using the APDS rounds that they had in 1944, Tigers and Panthers were vulnerable.
Borrowed from https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/320188-what-is-the-actual-performance-of-qf-17-apds/ original source cited in thread.11/07/2018 at 07:14 #94894
As above, you need antitank guns. Each infantry battalion had six 6pdr, and the divisional AT battalion had another 48 guns (a mix of 6pdr, 17pdr and SP mounts depending on period and division).
It was also common to attach sections of SP 17pdrs to 75mm armed tank squadrons.
"Mistakes in the initial deployment cannot be rectified" - Helmuth von Moltke11/07/2018 at 07:30 #94895
Yes, you need 6 pounders. .
I do have one…….
Can I wait until the War Budget recovers in order to buy some more or am I going to get some “Lend-Lease” ATG from you fellows?
(Just keep in mind, the P&P to OZ is exhorbitant).
cheers donald11/07/2018 at 08:47 #94900
$34 plus P & P at War and Peace Games. You know you want to …11/07/2018 at 12:35 #94918
Vade retro me, satana.11/07/2018 at 12:49 #94920
He won’t. One 17pdr would be a good start. Remember that the divisional ATk support included both 17 pdr, 6 pdr and SPs.
You must be logged in to reply to this topic.