Home Forums Medieval Sergeants of The Knights of St Lazarus

Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 49 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #96161
    Ken
    Participant

    http://yarkshiregamer.blogspot.com/2018/08/sergeants-of-knights-of-st-lazarus.html

    A simple new unit post today.

    The Crusades Project stumbles forward with the speed of a lame tortoise and here we have the latest unit. A 28mm Fireforge Games Mounted Sgt plastic box set.

    Painted up as Sergeants for the Knights of St Lazarus, a unit I finished last October. Great models they are too.

    Still undecided on rules for these, still trying Deus Vult watch this space.

    Regards Ken
    The Yarkshire Gamer

    Http://yarkshiregamer.blogspot.co.uk

    #96162
    Darkest Star Games
    Participant

    Really nice looking figures there sir.  The black and green are very striking.

    "I saw this in a cartoon once, but I'm pretty sure I can do it..."

    #96166
    Mike
    Keymaster

    Still undecided on rules for these,

    Wait what, did you buy the models before getting any rules, or did you get and have tried Deus Vult but are thinking about trying something else?
    I am breaking into a cold sweat over the thought of buying figures before the rules…

    😐

    #96169
    Ken
    Participant

    Cheers Mike, I have always bought figures I like and based them in a way I think looks right and then tried to find a set of rules I like. It’s usually quite straight forward to alter a rule set to match my basing, if not I just write my own rules !

    Rebel I know 😉

    Regards Ken

    Http://yarkshiregamer.blogspot.co.uk

    #96170
    Patrice
    Participant

    I am breaking into a cold sweat over the thought of buying figures before the rules… 😐

    Ah? That seems quite natural to me. Much more natural than buying figures especially to play [insert ruleset name here].

    The figures we buy do exist, and will continue to exist, on our shelves and on our gaming tables and in our dreams of adventures; the ruleset we choose afterwards is just a way to give life to these dreams.

    http://www.argad-bzh.fr/argad/en.html
    https://www.anargader.net/

    #96171
    ian pillay
    Participant

    They are fantastic. I really like the green on the black, it’s very striking. The green on the white looks good as well. These  based on actual historical colour schemes?

     

    As to buying miniutes without rules and rules without miniatures, I guess that’s half the fun 😉

    • This reply was modified 2 years, 10 months ago by ian pillay.

    Tally-Ho!

    #96177

    I do believe green was associated with this order.

    Great looking figures.

     

    All that’s, er, “missing” are some missing noses.

    #96196
    Ruarigh
    Participant

    Lovely figures, and they look good with the green and black, and green and white. I had not heard of the Knights of Lazarus before, so thanks for posting on both counts.

    Never argue with an idiot. They'll only drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

    https://emidsvikings.ac.uk/
    https://roderickdale.co.uk/

    #96209
    Ken
    Participant

    Cheers Everyone,

    The Knights of St Lazarus are very real, in fact they are still around today as the Order of St Lazarus. If you are interested click on the link in the Sergeants post back to the Post I did on the Knights and there is more information as well as details about the book “Leper Knights” which mostly covers the order in England but does have a couple chapters (no pun intended) on the Order in the Holy Land.

    Green was and still is the colour of the Order.

    Regards Ken

    The Yarkshire Gamer

    Http://yarkshiregamer.blogspot.co.uk

    #96210
    Darkest Star Games
    Participant

    Wow, lepers fighting, that just blows my mind.  I have known one, and what he has told me about living with the disease and then these guys wearing armor and whatnot and playing badly with others is just astounding.

     

    Say, what’s the “oil and wipe” method you mentioned with the horses?

    "I saw this in a cartoon once, but I'm pretty sure I can do it..."

    #96215
    Ken
    Participant

    Hi DSG,

    The oil wipe method is very old school. I picked it up in the late 80s. Thankfully I did a tutorial a while back to explain,

    http://yarkshiregamer.blogspot.com/2015/08/15mm-blue-moon-syw-british-cavalry.html

    I have been experimenting recently with an acrylic base coat but still leaving the oil to dry for at least a week.

    Regards Ken

    The Yarkshire Gamer

     

    Http://yarkshiregamer.blogspot.co.uk

    #96429
    Darkest Star Games
    Participant

    Thankfully I did a tutorial a while back to explain

    Aha!  Brilliant!  It’s been a long time since i painted any horses, and a lot of that reason has been because they just weren’t turning out “right”.  I”ll give this method a try and see how it goes.  Thank you sir!

    "I saw this in a cartoon once, but I'm pretty sure I can do it..."

    #97912
    Paskal
    Spectator

    Hello Ken,

    Sorry Ken, heavy uniformological error, because of the rules of both templars and hospitallers stated that a knight who taught leprosy must leave the Order and join the brethren of St Lazarus, who wore a black habit without insignia

    As for the sergeants of the religious orders, I have studied the question, the modern illustrators and therefore the sculptors of figurines we always show them with a knight hauberk and often with an iron kettle – helmet , (chapel de fer or iron hat , first appeared in the late -12 th century) to give them a look more ” light ” that the knights of the religious orders, still sorry Ken, second heavy uniformological error, in fact the sergeants of the religious orders wore lighter hauberk that the knights of the religious orders, the hauberk of the sergeants of the religious orders are short-sleeved and stopping above knees …

    As everyone knows, the sergeants of the religious orders were less heavily equipped than their knights (hence” levis armaturae “), wearing lighter hauberks but carrying the same armament of lance and sword as the knights of the religious orders…

    I have never been able to find the right figurines for my religious order sergeants and will be forced to make them when I have a moment of respite …

    If anyone knows where to find good figures of religious order sergeants , as I just described them, (not to mention that they also carry surcoats on their haberks) let me know, thank you.

    • This reply was modified 2 years, 9 months ago by Paskal.
    • This reply was modified 2 years, 9 months ago by Paskal.
    #97929
    McKinstry
    Participant

    Great looking figures. I play my Crusade games using 10mm but a unit of St. Lazarus is a must.

    The tree of Life is self pruning.

    #98671
    Ken
    Participant

    Thanks everyone,

    Paskal, any queries regarding the uniform should be directed at Fireforge Games who made the figures. Is it not a matter of passing time ? Sergeants in the 1st Crusade would be different to those in the later Crusades, Fireforge figures are designed for that later period.

    As for the colours of the Lazarus, what is your source for that ? I have references to both Black/Green and White/Green, I also have a reasonably contemporary picture of a Knight of St Lazarus in White / Green. I find it very difficult to believe that the Order would have no cross insignia in a time where religious devotion was paramount. Removing the right to wear the cross would be a punishment, caring for those with Leprosy was a religious calling.

    People entered the Order not only from other Orders on contraction of Leprosy but also from none Order Crusaders when they fell ill. Others without the disease would join with the vocation to care for those suffering.

    I clearly state in the blog post that the “uniform” is pure speculation based on the black/red of the Templar Sergeants.

    Regards Ken

    The Yarkshire Gamer

    Http://yarkshiregamer.blogspot.co.uk

    #98679
    Paskal
    Spectator

    Ken, I have something else to write to the factories to indicate their “uniform” errors on their figures, sometimes it is about “uniform” misunderstandings (because they copy the illustrations of modern illustrators), sometimes more rarely, it is about omissions that come from the fact that everything can not be molded …

    As far as I’m concerned, I spot it pretty quickly and when it’s fixable, I do it all afterwards with the help of “Green Stuff” …

    For the protections of the sergeants, at all times they are of an order or not they have worn less complete protections than the knights, everyone knows that …

    I myself make all my sergeants religious order for the reasons explained above in the dress explained in my post of 28/08/2018 at 15:32.

    The rules of both templars and hospitallers stated that a knight who taught leprosy must leave the Order and join the brethren of St Lazarus, who wore a black habit without insignia …

    It was not a punishment, but rather a way to recognize them …

    To begin with, see what Terence Wise, Ian Heath and David Nicolle say about this order …

    I will ask the question from my side to see and tell you what I found as soon as possible …

    #98715
    Guy Farrish
    Participant

    There seems to be some confusion about when the green cross was adopted by the Order of St Lazarus, some internet articles confidently state that it was not adopted until the 16th Century. However Savona-Ventura and Michael W Ross clearly allude to the fact  that The Knights of St Lazarus at least were using the green cross on habit mantle and harness from 1314 at the latest – prescribed by Siegried of Flatte, Commander of Seedorf in that year.*  Master Generals of the order were probably wearing some form of cross on their cloaks a little earlier at least – Thomas de Sainville (1277-1312) is depicted on his tomb originally at Boigny with a couped cross on his cloak at the left shoulder.

    *The Heraldry and Development of the Order of Saint Lazarus of Jerusalem, The Journal of the Heraldry Society of Scotland No.36 Summer 2013.

    #98717
    Paskal
    Spectator

    Bravo Guy, so my memory was good, during the period known as the Crusades (twelfth and thirteenth century), as the Templars and Hospitalliers stated , a knight who taught leprosy must leave the Order and join the brethren of St Lazarus, who wore And the chevaliers in good health had the same outfit, but whether this is a long sleeves or sleeveless surcoat or the “cappa clausa” of the Hospitalers ?

    In my opinion it is the sleeveless surcoat …

    So also, in my opinion, in the Order of St Lazarus, knights were distinguished from sergeants only by less complete hauberks as I described them in previous posts of this topic.

    Well I keep looking because now it interests me deeply …

    #98787
    Paskal
    Spectator
    #98792
    Guy Farrish
    Participant

    Well Paskal, I looked.

    Not sure those tell me anything about the date of adoption of the green cross, and I am sure it tells me nothing about the armour of sergeants versus knights.

    Worth noting by the way that Pope Gregory IX’s Bull of 1227 acknowledges at least 4 classes of the order: brothers, knights, clerics and donors. Additionally the colour of the surcoats is not clear.

    The order was established under the Augustinian rule – Augustinians wore black habits with white cowls and cloaks. Savona and Ross conjecture that the cross was sewn onto the black habits of the monks but  speculate that the standard military dress was a white surcoat with the green cross to differentiate themselves from the other orders. Precisely why they posit these configurations is unclear.

    Your quote:

    ‘the rules of both templars and hospitallers stated that a knight who taught leprosy must leave the Order and join the brethren of St Lazarus, who wore a black habit without insignia…’ appears in Terry Wise’s Osprey book ‘Knights of Christ’ as follows:

    ‘ Certainly the rules of both Templars and Hospitallers stated that a knight who caught leprosy must leave the Order and join the brethren of St Lazarus, who wore a black habit without insignia .’

    Was that the source or have you found his sources?

    Two points

    1. The implication seems to be that the rules meant knights had to leave and join the order of St Lazarus. The note that they wore a ‘black habit without insignia’ seems to be a separate comment by Wise tacked onto this for a rhetorical flourish.  (Unless you have seen the original rule that states this? I haven’t but it may exist.)

    2. Terry was a great wargamer but his history in some of the medieval Osprey series is open to interpretation and discussion. It would be unwise (no pun intended) to rely too heavily on his statements, unless you have the source material to back it up. I haven’t seen anything – have you?

    What I should have said a lot earlier by the way – is: Ken – fantastic units and lovely to look at and no doubt play with.

    • This reply was modified 2 years, 9 months ago by Guy Farrish.
    #98815
    Paskal
    Spectator

    This is indeed Terence Wise in the MAA No. 155 page 17. I think we can trust Terence Wise because he did not invent anything and he had to find it in the bibliography that he indicates. pages 33 and 34 in his MAA No. 155 …

    For the difference of protection between knights and sergeants, it’s logical, but see Ian Heath who explains it very well …

    Personally   I make my sergeants very easily as I think they were “HC with a surcoat in good colors for a sergeant of his order” …

    But you guy, tell me how do you imagine the outfits of knights and sergeants of the order of St. Lazarus in 1150 in the Holy Land?

    #98823
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    I think we can trust Terence Wise because he did not invent anything and he had to find it in the bibliography that he indicates. pages 33 and 34 in his MAA No. 155 …

    Holy Sweeping Statements Without Any Foundation, Batman.

    "I go online sometimes, but everyone's spelling is really bad. It's... depressing."

    #98840
    Paskal
    Spectator

    Not Connard Sage, Terence Wise gives his sources he could do nothing more and me either … If you have better, enlighten us of your lights …

    #98843
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    Not Connard Sage, Terence Wise gives his sources he could do nothing more and me either … If you have better, enlighten us of your lights …

    Paskal, you tell us. What are Wise’s sources? Have you read those sources yourself? Or are you content to assert that because TW states something then it must be true?

    "I go online sometimes, but everyone's spelling is really bad. It's... depressing."

    #98844
    McKinstry
    Participant

    Since my Crusaders have to fight battles over a period of centuries, I don’t really care if, for any one point in time, the look (in 10mm) is precisely historically off. I don’t really sweat the small stuff but I do care that they look good and those white with green and black on green figures are gorgeous. A couple of stands of those on the table top really make things pop as a contrast to the usual Templar and Hospitaler mobs.

    I also have Knights of Jerusalem fellows in light blue stomping about completely oblivious that often they both predate and postdate their proper existence.

    The tree of Life is self pruning.

    #98851
    Guy Farrish
    Participant

    The rules of the Templars grew over time and the versions we have are composite – however the French version is available in J M Upton The Rule of the Templars: The French Text of the Rule of the Order of the Knights Templar (London,: Boydell Press, 1997).

    Rule 443 on p.118 reads: ‘When it befalls any brother that by the will of Our Lord he contracts leprosy and the thing is proven, the worthy men of the house should admonish him and ask him to request permission to leave the house and go to St Lazarus and take the habit of a brother of St Lazarus…’

    There is, understandably no mention of the dress of the Order of St Lazarus in the rule. So Wise’s flourish was based on other sources or a misunderstanding of them.

    The current internet version that the green cross was not used until the 16th Century seems traceable via an article by Natalie Kohout, widely circulated online to  Desmond Seward’s The Monks of War: The Military Religious Orders (london: Eyre Methuen, 1972) which she cites as her source for this statement.

    I have not yet checked Seward but it seems unlikely that this is sustainable given the sources I quoted above.

     

    #98855
    Paskal
    Spectator

    Not Connard Sage,  yes I trust TW, it’s still allowed, right ?

     

    McKinstry, each his tastes, I like only the historical realism and figurines of 28 / 40mm also I spend a lot of time to transform the figurines or equip them properly and thus to do historical research, I do not say than the green crosses on white surcoats for the knights of St Lazarus
    or on black surcoats for the sergeants of St Lazarus did not exist, but certainly not at the time that interests me (the mid-twelfth century) and I find it odd that Terence Wise, Ian Heath and David Nicolle do not not speak, in my opinion it appeared later …

    Guy, I think that for lepers or in an order that deals with the leper, something black surcoats without a cross, it is plausible … May be that in the 13th century, it has evolved …

    #98861

    Guy, do you have Seward? If not, I can supply the quotes.

    Unfortunately, he doesn’t cite specific sources in notes.

    #98862
    Guy Farrish
    Participant

    Hafen, thanks – I thought I had but it appears I do not have a copy of Seward – Kohout cites p.33. Any reference to the appearance of the Green Cross and the source for that  very welcome.

    #98865

    Well, it’s not that, exactly, but here are the most relevant quotes:

    “Probably the habit was black and resembled that of the Hospitallers; its green cross was not adopted until the sixteenth century”.

    Which seems to have come from this:

    “Three new ‘Religions’ were active in the Mediterranean during the seventeenth century. They were modeled on Santo Stefano, their knights being allowed to marry. The Order of Sts Maurice and Lazarus, established in 1572, was based on the leper-knight’s former commanderies in Piedmont. The dukes of Savoy provided grand masters. Its knights, who wore green cloaks with a white-and-green ‘cross botonny’, equipped and manned galleys, besides financing Lazar houses”.

    This is from the revised edition of 1995, pages 22 and 235, respectively, of the Folio Society printing of 2000.

    So Seward apparently thinks the “new” order wasn’t really connected with the original.

    As I said above, he provides no notes for these passages. There is a list of obscure French and Italian sources in the bibliography –please don’t make me post those — after typing this out one-fingered once on my phone, I lost the whole thing when I accidentally hit the back button — d’oh! *

     

    *Well, I will, if you insist! 

    #98866
    Guy Farrish
    Participant

    Yes please – twice with translations!

    Not really.

    Many thanks for that.

    I’d like to track down the original of the Siegfried of Flatte prescription (well, a well attested copy/transcription!) of 1314. From the things I’ve read I suspect the ‘not before the 16th Century’ thing is because the evidence wasn’t easily available in the 1960s/early70s but neither am I entirely convinced that a carving on a tomb that has been moved means everyone was wearing green crosses prior to 1314.

    I suspect the truth may be somewhere in between (as usual) or more likely – ‘we don’t know’ (even more familiar!).

    Meanwhile, I’d be a tad suspicious of putting too much weight on Terry Wise’s pronouncements – no offence, I really liked him and still ( I think) have letters we exchanged in the 1970s about many facets of wargaming – the morality of flamethrowers being one – can’t remember if he allowed Greek Fire in his games or not! However, (sorry Mr Gove) some of his medieval history relied rather heavily on outdated secondary sources and I’d be wary of over reliance on his Ospreys.

    #98885
    Paskal
    Spectator

    In any case, I have no doubt that for decades there have been white surcharges and green crosses only after the Crusades for the Knights of St Lazarus.
    The knights and the sergeants of St Lazarus carried to the crusades that certainly that black coats without insignia of any kinds …

    Hafen Von Schockenberg writes: “” Probably the dress was black and green that was not adopted until the sixteenth century “.

    “resembled that of the Hospitallers” ???

    What are you talking about ???

    Of the Cappa Clausa ???

    In this case it is impossible because only the knights and sergeants of the Knights Hospitallers wearing the Cappa Clausa in the crusades…

    The knights and the sergeants of St Lazarus carried a simple surcoat like those of the Knights Templar but black and without cross or badges of any kind(But rather sleeveless in my opinion …).

    And as everyone knows, sergeants are not as heavily equipped as knights, including in the military orders of the Knights of Christ.

    To finish and to confirm what I told you several times about this topic, I contacted the Chancellor of the Grand Priory of France, in the person of Chevalier Daniel Blanchet Magon de la Lande.

    I hope he has the answer, or that he will put me in touch with an enthusiast or a specialist of his order for these kinds of questions.

    • This reply was modified 2 years, 9 months ago by Paskal.
    #98953
    Guy Farrish
    Participant

    The knights and the sergeants of St Lazarus carried to the crusades that certainly that black coats without insignia of any kinds …

    Why are you so sure?

    Evidence?

    #98972
    Paskal
    Spectator

    Heavy presentiment for decades (I have the right?), I await the opinion of the Chancellor of the Grand Priory of France, in the person of Knight Daniel Blanchet Magon de la Lande, if there is someone in his order knows a source that indicates that and has time to answer me.

    While waiting for this miraculous answer, we should be interested in the number of combatants of this order, what battles with how many knights, sergeants and turcopoles?

    #98983

    What are you talking about?

    That’s Seward talking, not me.

    #98985
    Paskal
    Spectator

    Hafen von Schlockenberg I never said that ! I know it’s Seward who said that and not you, but what he says is what I’ve been presenting for decades (I have the right?)…

    Now I await the opinion of the Chancellor of the Grand Priory of France, in the person of Knight Daniel Blanchet Magon de la Lande, if there is someone in his order knows a source that indicates that and has time to answer me.

    While waiting for this miraculous answer, we should be interested in the number of combatants of this order, what battles with how many knights, sergeants and turcopoles?

    Maybe we can find interesting things ?

    • This reply was modified 2 years, 9 months ago by Paskal.
    #99049
    Guy Farrish
    Participant

    I contacted the Chancellor of the Grand Priory of France, in the person of Chevalier Daniel Blanchet Magon de la Lande.

    No doubt he will refer you to the Order’s web pages Ordre de St Lazaire de Jerusalem although I’m not sure they have many views on the relative arming and armour of knights and sergeants.

    #99056
    Paskal
    Spectator

    If he answers me , I hope that this will be to put me in touch with a specialist or an enthusiast of these questions.

    I am on another track, I wait for the news that I will give you if I receive them and even if they go against what I advance …

    To change the register, according to Ian Heath, in La Forbie in 1244, the Lazar contingent did not exceed 40 men !

    • This reply was modified 2 years, 9 months ago by Paskal.
    #99246
    Ken
    Participant

    Most comments I’ve had on the painting of my Toy Soldiers in a while, I still like them !

    I know there were only 25 Knights at Acre, it’s a different, nice looking unit and if it’s on a 1 fig to 2 men scale I’m good with that.

    Regards Ken

    Http://yarkshiregamer.blogspot.co.uk

    #99255
    Paskal
    Spectator

    It is impossible to find anything on the color of the habit of this order.

    But it’s always the same, I know I’ll find the answer when I’m not looking.

Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 49 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.