The Unnamed Legion (3mm scale Epic Armageddon "Heresy" Proxies)

[Mr. Average]

Oooh, nice choice. I like them myself. I like the Crescente Reformists, too.

The Nachtjäger would work better at 6mm scale I think, you’re quite right.

[Thaddeus Blanchette]

The more I look at Vanguard’s prices, however, the more I begin to worry that I am going to be priced out of this one. I am not going to pay 6mm prices for 3mm. :/

We get slapped around, but we have a good time!

[Stroezie]

Maybe try microworld then?

He’s looking to release most if not all of Javelin98’s 3mm shapeways stuff.

more info over at TWW

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=137&t=32628

[Thaddeus Blanchette]

Oh, I have got tons of 3mm sci-fi already. Vanguard’s stuff just has me hankering to play Epic 40k again.

We get slapped around, but we have a good time!

[Thaddeus Blanchette]

Mat, I hate to abuse your good nature once again, but do you have any close up pictures of painted O8 Venerators? I know you were using them as Space Marine stand-ins, but I can’t recall seeing a picture and it is very hard for me to visualize them. From your unpainted shot, it looks like they stand as tall as Vanguard’s space marines, at least.

We get slapped around, but we have a good time!

[Mr. Average]

I’lol put up a photo soon, but the Vanguard minis are bulkier than the o8 ones and so will feel slightly bigger. Price wise it’s wait and see, but my understanding is that they’re going to some lengths to keep prices down, so I wouldn’t get uptight too soon.

[moredakka]

Thaddeus Blanchette wrote:

3mm OTC would be the bee’s knees. Also the ‘nids. We are missing a recognizeable alien army in 3mm. My only fear is pricing. Vanguard charges 12 pounds for three 6mm vehicles! If they sell 12 3mm vehicles for that same price, I am going to have to bow out. That would be more than 4 times O8’s prices!

Hi Vanguard here yes some of my models are indeed £12 for three but in most cases they are less, on the whole my models tend to be chunkier than most 6mm miniatures you see on the market and often come with extras for modelling options. I do keep my prices fair in comparison to what it costs me to have them designed, printed and cast up. I’m not in the business of ripping people off just charging a fair price for good quality highly detailed models, not unreasonable i’m sure you’ll agree.

As for the prices of the 3mm range i’m looking to keep pack prices fair for the size and quality of the miniatures in comparison to other manufacturers. You have already seen that the vehicles are bigger and much more detailed than O8’s as well most likely an other 3mm manufactures miniatures out there, you get what you pays for.

I will be selling in full company packs/sets at a very reasonable price i’ve poured a lot of my own personal resources into this project and introduced the next level of detail to the 3mm market to boot the sheer number of poses on the infantry alone deserves some recognition and we have separate turrets on most vehicles and additional optional turrets for some in the works and this is just for the elites you should see what we have instore for the other DiD factions exciting stuff well for me anyway.

Affray mechanised infantry company (3 platoons) pack contents:

78 multi pose affray infantry

30 multi pose heavy support weapons infantry

Around 8 to 10 multi pose officer figures

10 trojan APC’s

Over 100 infantry and 10 vehicles, what price would you be happy to pay for this.

 

[Thaddeus Blanchette]

Not accusing you of ripping people off! I just have an upper limit I can spend these days, what with the real at 3.5 to the pound. Of course, if the Tories tits up the Brexit process, that might change.

With regards to the company, a similar set from O8 would be about 18 USD. Your stuff is chunkier, so probably 25 USD would be reasonable.

We get slapped around, but we have a good time!

[Splod]

I really like the Duchy of Crescente! Very similar to a Russ I painted up a while back, just with black turret… Maybe I’ll have to give it a shot!

[Zard]

Personally would expect to pay £8-£10 for that mechanized company. Going over £15 I think would be too steep.

Am I right in thinking the Dominion release got delayed? Is it possible to have some previews of the rules please?

[Thaddeus Blanchette]

Well, O8 will sell you Eldar 8 sci-fi tanks for 4.50 USD and 75 infantry for the same. The space marines would probably follow their power armor releases, however, and be 45 to the pack.

So Vanguard’s company pack would be the equivalent of 4 O8 packs.

Note that O8 sells 15 tanks per pack when the figures are smaller, single casts.

Then again, Poland is part of the European Union, so that might make a difference in the future.

We get slapped around, but we have a good time!

[Darkest Star Games]

Did you shift to a more purple second color for the turrets, or is it still black and just a trick of the light?  I do like it purple!

"I saw this in a cartoon once, but I'm pretty sure I can do it..."

[Mike]

Thaddeus Blanchette wrote:

Well, O8 will sell you Eldar 8 sci-fi tanks for 4.50 USD and 75 infantry for the same. The space marines would probably follow their power armor releases, however, and be 45 to the pack. So Vanguard’s company pack would be the equivalent of 4 O8 packs. Note that O8 sells 15 tanks per pack when the figures are smaller, single casts. Then again, Poland is part of the European Union, so that might make a difference in the future.

Am I right in thinking the o8 are hand sculpted where as the Vanguard are 3D?
That will add to the costs and detail, something that will need to be recovered.

[Mr. Average]

Darkest Star Games wrote:

Did you shift to a more purple second color for the turrets, or is it still black and just a trick of the light? I do like it purple!

I did! It’s black with a very dark blue overlaid on it.

[Zard]

Ah I didn’t realize the power armour only come in packs of 45, or the grav tanks in 8s.

I would be annoyed if this worked out more expensive than 6mm.

Still looking forward to this release mind you.

[Rhoderic]

25 USD (or 18.50 GBP) does honestly strike me as a tad steep for that mechanised infantry company. How large a portion of a complete army would that be? I don’t expect anyone to be able to answer that question (because I’m not sure what scope of battle I’d be wanting these miniatures for – Epic or “epicer than Epic”?) but it’s something I’m trying to figure out for myself in my head, and the preliminary estimates I arrive at cause me to worry over my hobby budget.

I’m reminded of the Age of Tyrants 6mm sci-fi Kickstarter. I balked at the prices at first, then after a forum conversation with one of the people behind the project I realised the prices were actually reasonable given the sheer size and bulk of the miniatures, but then I realised that however reasonable the price per miniature, I just couldn’t afford two whole damn armies of them. I fear this may be a similar deal. If that mechanised infantry company is, say, one fifth of an army, and it’s priced at nearly 20 GBP, then I’d be laying out nearly 200 GBP for a collect-both-sides project.

But I don’t know, maybe it’s just… one third of an army? One half? How much of an army would 10 Rhinos and 120 Space Marines be in Epic or in other similar rulesets? Any rough estimates?

[Zard]

Moredakka was saying they come with command elements too, so depending on how you laid them out you could get as many as 1100pts in Epic Armageddon.
(3 Tactical units of 3 Rhinos and 6 Tactical stands, one with a Supreme Commander, and the other two with Chaplin or Librarian.)
Their should still be enough to make a Devastator unit (one Rhino short) for another 250pts + command. Assuming 3000pts is average that is almost half the army.

If your using epicAU’s Heresy supplement the equivalent set up only nets 900pts.
(2 Tactical detachments with 5 Rhinos, 8 Tactical stands and 2 Heavy support stands. One Lord Commander and one Chaplin or Librarian.)

I’m afraid I don’t know of any other similar rule sets well enough to comment.
I would be interested to see the Dominion rules that are supposed be released with these miniatures and what percentage of an army this company would be.

[Mr. Average]

I can’t speak to cost on any of this – it’s not my department – but I think they ARE 3D prints (they must be!), but that based on quality alone I’m willing to compare them favorably to O8 even at a somewhat higher price point.  I know that’s an unsatisfying answer but I’m not the one selling them so what can I say?  I will say this: the miniatures are great, and to me, have the feeling that Epic used to have when it was a thing.  They feel very “epic” indeed – and compared to 28mm or even 6mm, they have a mass army effect that I haven’t really had a chance to see since the 1990s.  They’re great and I support them wholeheartedly!

[Thaddeus Blanchette]

I am almost sure they are 3D prints as I have seen the print lines on some of the figs — at least that is what they look like in the photos.

The problem is, even if it is a just price in terms of production, it might still be too high for some consumers.

For me, I’m looking at 100 USD for two playable armies and it LOOKS like this will be possible. Titans are another thing, however. Vanguard makes BIG titans. Their 6mm stuff will run you a hundred pounds for three! I plan to buy a maniple for both side, so I’m not sure if I can go with that price. Even Dream Pod 9 is cheap by comparison.

However, Vanguard’s titans don’t really float my boat. They are nice — nothing wrongg with them. But as I said above, I like things to be a tad less gothic while still being silly sci-fi. So I will probably fork out another fifty dollars of so for some titan substitutes and fifty or so dollars for a space elf army from O8.

We get slapped around, but we have a good time!

[Mr. Average]

I recommend the Talos Syndicate mechs from Onslaught as cheaper 3mm scale Titans.  Although I happen to like the Vanguard titans as well.  They’re rescaling them for 3mm scale though, I think, so it’s not the same thing as their 6mm ones.

I guess we just have to wait and see when the line is released.

[Thaddeus Blanchette]

No doubt. But rescaled for 3mm, I think they will be as big as Grandma Wendy’s titans. Those are about 60 high and Vanguard’s are – what? – six inches? So in 3mm, they’d be about 60mm and probably as expensive as a GW metal titan.

We get slapped around, but we have a good time!

[Rhoderic]

It’s not that I don’t support Vanguard, it’s just that I need to ask myself some tough questions about the potential 3mm techno-gothic sci-fi project I’d like to embark upon with this new range, and I don’t see it as being not supportive to ask the questions out loud, because this is a hobby discussion forum after all.

Overall, I’m starting to arrive at the conclusion that I’ve been overestimating the scope of battles I can represent with these miniatures given my budget and gaming space (much like I did with the Age of Tyrants thing, although where I opted out of that one I’m still wanting to opt in with this one). I might be looking at a collect-both-sides project that doesn’t have quite as much oomph as I wanted of it at first, but only sets me back 100 GBP or less. That’ll probably be over a number of purchase occasions – I’ll waste on shipping that way but I rarely have 100 GBP to spare in my hobby budget at any one time.

[Mr. Average]

I don’t think anyone is saying anything unreasonable, and I’m not trying to confirm or deny anything.  Simply put, I just don’t know what the final prices will be, is all, so any answer you get from me will not be useful, I’m afraid!

[Mr. Average]

Thaddeus Blanchette wrote:

No doubt. But rescaled for 3mm, I think they will be as big as Grandma Wendy’s titans. Those are about 60 high and Vanguard’s are – what? – six inches? So in 3mm, they’d be about 60mm and probably as expensive as a GW metal titan.

I’ve never owned one of their biggies, so I’m afraid I don’t know.  The Talos walkers stand about an inch and a half high, and are a good stand-in for a Reaver, and stand a little taller if you stick a carapace weapon on top.  I built one to go with the NCE Imperial Guards I’ve been working on.  I’m not sure how the other Vanguard offerings will compare at 3mm scale but they do certainly look large at 6mm scale.  By the book the website says 90mm-110mm depending on how you build them, for the Leviathans, which are roughly equivalent to a Warlord, so if you cut that in half it’d make a 3mm one 45-55mm high, or a healthy 2-1/4″ or thereabouts.

[Rhoderic]

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I wasn’t assuming you’d know the price level. I’m working with Thaddeus Blanchette’s guesstimate for now. I may not like that figure very much but the comparison with the O8 proxy Eldar does parse. 10 APCs and a little under 120 very heavy infantry is indeed approximately equivalent to 4 O8 sci-fi packs, and it does indeed seem to be the case that the Vanguard stuff is bulkier. I do still hold out some hope that the bulk doesn’t raise the price too much, though. We’re still only talking about vehicles that measure approximately 16mm x 10mm x 6mm (not counting sponsons) and infantry of approximately 4mm by my best estimate of photos.

[moredakka]

Hello again chaps let me see if I can answer some of your questions/concerns.

All my models are 3D designed and then printed masters are produced, these then go for master moulding and then production moulding. This is a very expensive process costing on average around £300 plus pounds to reach production mould stage for each model or sprue before I order actual castings for selling. So even with best seller models it takes a very long time to break even, i’ve still got many products that have not reached break even level yet. But anyway i’m sure your not really interested in that side of miniature manufacture. I will say this the 3mm models on the whole have cost just as much and in some cases more to print than many of my 6mm models, the smaller it is the harder it is to print and also harder to clean up afterwards.

I will do my best to keep packs at sub £15 sets but some may go slightly above this i’m not sure just yet, depends on contents obviously.

The above company pack gives you one gaming formation, three platoons plus transport this is a core Dominion formation and they would operate and be activated together. You can play with as many companies as you choose and companies can be upgraded with additional supporting platoons. Certain models such a superheavy tanks and warstalkers are fielded independantly.

Obviously these models can be used with other gaming systems too.

The elites infantry are about 4mm tall as befits their super soldier status with regular humans about 3mm as you would expect. Vehicles are scaled to look right next to the infantry and so are slightly bigger than normal 3mm ranges from other manufacturers.

Warstalkers (big stompy robots) vary in size with a medium machine (the dreadnought) at around 45mm to the top of the carapace weapon, 35mm to top of hull. Both the leviathan and dreadnought models will come with a lot of weapon options and I hope to have several leg poses as well for each. The jackal will come with four weapon options. More warstalker designs will follow as well as other very large war machines and maybe terrain pieces too.

Later we will introduce aircraft and dropships into the game and more factions too. Both the novan elites and the allied cybershadows will see reinforcement and the novan regulars will be joining the fray soon. I already have a lot of tanks printed ready for moulding and test prints of my winter troops are already at casting stage. It’s early days for this project yet we have so very much we can add to the armies as well as game expansions we hope to release at a later date.

A full expanded rule set will follow as an actual book if possible with the fast play version on downloadable PDF for free up on my website soon.

Many thanks for the interest guys i’ll try to pop in here from time to time to answer any other questions you may have cheers John

You can follow future development on my facebook page  here: https://www.facebook.com/Vanguard-Miniatures-1257474570933173

[Thaddeus Blanchette]

Sounds great, Moredakka. 15 pounds sounds eminently reasonable to me for that pack you described. I would definitely get behind a project like that. Not sure if I will use your titans, but that’s a personal taste issue. I may substitute them with upgunned cybershadows, in fact.

Really looking forward to this!

We get slapped around, but we have a good time!

[Thaddeus Blanchette]

Given the high cost of anything epic related, I think this is an amazingly good marketing decision. I very much hope it works out for you. There is a prejudice against 3mm. But if people can field two reasonable armies for around 100 pounds, I think the pull of being able to play epic at a decent entry price will counteract that.

It certainly is for me. And I swore off anything GW-esque back in 1992.

It helps quite alot that the Spess Mahrine universe is exagerated and cartoonish, with so many big vehicles. Hell, even the Marines themselves are 4mm tall. This means the whole thing is going to look a lot more like a traditional 6mm game than Grandma Wendy’s typical set up. And you’ll be able to play a battle on a 3×2 foot table if you like, too!

 

We get slapped around, but we have a good time!

[moredakka]

This is my main concern with releasing 3mm versions of my 6mm range and that is that i’m inadvertantly creating a rival range to compete against my 6mm sales which is not my intent at all. The 3mm models have been done to be able to play truly epic battles involving thousands of troops and vehicles and dozens of stalkers, the kind of game impossible to play with our regular 6mm armies.

6mm is my core business loose to many sales there and i’m finished.

[Mr. Average]

I don’t think you’re going to seriously alter anybody’s purchasing patterns. People who want 6mm will probably not stop buying it, any more than the existence of 6mm makes anyone give up on 15mm or 28mm scale figures. But people who want and like 3mm scale will have the option, and some people may end up adding to their existing collections with 3mm as an “auxiliary” scale, just as I do, or may experiment with it, or find that it has some advantages for the kind of titanic-scale battles you describe!

But on the other hand, if you end up seriously revolutionizing the gaming world in favor of 3mm scale, embrace it.

[Rhoderic]

moredakka wrote:

This is my main concern with releasing 3mm versions of my 6mm range and that is that i’m inadvertantly creating a rival range to compete against my 6mm sales which is not my intent at all. The 3mm models have been done to be able to play truly epic battles involving thousands of troops and vehicles and dozens of stalkers, the kind of game impossible to play with our regular 6mm armies.

This would be the ultimate ideal for me. The question I’m asking myself is, can I do so with considerably less commitment than it would take me to collect two 28mm sci-fi/fantasy armies of approximately 50-100 figures each? That’s the kind of wargaming I don’t do anymore. The widest scope I’m prepared to go to in 28mm these days (since abandoning 40K, WHFB and WAB over a decade ago) is something in the order of Antares or SAGA (and that’s one end of the spectrum, where the other end is stuff like Pulp Alley and Rogue Stars). I bring this up because I try to apply the same standard, in terms of level of commitment, to the other scales. So for instance, In 15mm-18mm I’m prepared to wargame the same scope of battles that I used to want to do in 28mm, as evinced by my Ion Age and Martian Empires projects. My Ion Age project is very much a “40K by proxy” project to me, scaled down for practicability. My Martian Empires project is sorta kinda WHFB-ish. As another example, I’d like to do a Warmaster project in 6mm some day (Warmaster in its true form was/is 10mm, for those who don’t know). This is my yardstick for sensible wargaming these days. So, I’m trying to figure out if a “more epic than Epic” 3mm sci-fi project is possible within those parameters.

Come to think of it, here’s a question to anyone who can answer. I never played Epic myself. Back when that game was in its heyday, did an Epic army take as much commitment to collect as a 40K army did? Or was it more like the difference between a 40K army and a Necromunda gang?

[Thaddeus Blanchette]

moredakka wrote:

This is my main concern with releasing 3mm versions of my 6mm range and that is that i’m inadvertantly creating a rival range to compete against my 6mm sales which is not my intent at all. The 3mm models have been done to be able to play truly epic battles involving thousands of troops and vehicles and dozens of stalkers, the kind of game impossible to play with our regular 6mm armies. 6mm is my core business loose to many sales there and i’m finished.

I doubt you will. The true, blue epic players are your core market and they will scream “Heresy!” at 3mm figs. Those open to the idea will probably buy ANOTHER army (after all, Grandma Wendy’s fans seem to have dough), either for the epic battles you talk of, or to play a battle on a coffee table, or make a convenient travel battle kit.

And I think you will get a lot of guys like me who remember how much fun Epic was but gave up on GW years ago. In fact, I am so anti-GW that I positively qvell whenever I see their figs being pirated down here in South America. So guys like me will be able to indulge in nostalgia without breaking the bank or financially supporting Those Who Must Not Be Named in Nottingham.

We get slapped around, but we have a good time!

[Thaddeus Blanchette]

Rhoderic wrote:

Come to think of it, here’s a question to anyone who can answer. I never played Epic myself. Back when that game was in its heyday, did an Epic army take as much commitment to collect as a 40K army did? Or was it more like the difference between a 40K army and a Necromunda gang?

At the time Epic came out, I was building a Warhammer Fantasy skeleton army. It never got completed or saw the table. Two epic armies did. IIRC, I bought the game in February and hosted a large game at a local con with multiple titans in early June.

With 3mm, it’ll be even faster. 100 3mm infantry is an evening’s work. Likewise 20 tanks. You need to dominate new painting and basing skills to do 3mm properly, but this is not hard. Basically, you need to base in colors that contrast with your figures and base with light colored flocking. Or little to no flocking at all. And you need to make your figures really pop out to the eye, so bright colors. This is great for sci-fi and particularly cartoonish sci-fi such as WH epic as you can use any palette you want.

We get slapped around, but we have a good time!

[Thaddeus Blanchette]

By the way, Moredakka’s company lay out will give you two tactical detatchments and two devastor detatchments for Epic almost right on the money! Buy 20 jumptroops and you’ll have a reinforced Spess Marine company, for something like 17-18 pounds.

We get slapped around, but we have a good time!

[Mr. Average]

You know, I had a moment of aberration this morning. There are essentially three classes of Titan, right? Small, Medium and Large (whatever the proxy names are: Warhounds, Reavers and Warlords, I guess). Well at 3mm scale, if you do multi-unit bases for vehicles to go with them, that becomes the perfect setup for Horizon Wars, doesn’t it? Mecha = Titans, unit bases become equivalent “conventional” forces to go with.

…Imperial Horizons…!

8)

[Alexander Wasberg]

Thats not a bad idea!

You probably want to make the titans higher P than 1,2,3 respectively otherwise tanks are going to eat Warhounds and possibly even Reavers without much trouble. I’d suggest starting at P3 or even make them all Superheavies with a P of 4+ so they feel properly apocalyptic 🙂

http://lasersandbroadswords.blogspot.com My project blog

[Thaddeus Blanchette]

Meanwhile, I am rebasing and expanding my Green Horde army of O8 figures, looking to make them Imperial Guard proxies.

We get slapped around, but we have a good time!

[moredakka]

Chaps the 3mm range is due for release this weekend provided there are no unforseen set backs.

Pack prices will be £12 and £14 respectively dependant on contents.

See my latest facebook post here for set contents. https://www.facebook.com/Vanguard-Miniatures-1257474570933173/

Cheers

[Thaddeus Blanchette]

Lord, the Jubilee has arrived! 😀

We get slapped around, but we have a good time!

[Thaddeus Blanchette]

And, right on time, new O8 artillery pieces that are very much “Not Imperial Guard”. A Basilisk and a Bombard, if I am not mistaken…

We get slapped around, but we have a good time!

[Author]

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