Home Forums WWII Soviet SMG in Normandy?

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  • #76562
    Ivan Sorensen
    Participant

    Related to the recent Call of Duty game, I got to wondering:

    The Germans issued huge amounts of captured Soviet submachine guns to their troops. Did any of these end up in Normandy?

    For that matter, does anyone have a figure for how many Soviet SMG were re-issued by the German army?

    Nordic Weasel Games
    https://www.wargamevault.com/browse/pub/5701/Nordic-Weasel-Games?src=browse5701

    #76564
    MartinR
    Participant

    Given that there were a number of Ost battalions in Normandy still equipped with Soviet 50mm and 82mm mortars, as well as 45mm ATGs, I’d be amazed if they didn’t also have PPsH SMGs. Especially as they took 9mm parabellum, same as the MP40.

    I wouldn’t necessarily base my weapon selections on COD though, there seem to be an awful lot of MP18s lying around, yet not a single GW43, at least not on the missions I’ve got to yet:)

    Outside of the Ost battalions, I’d be surprised if captured small arms went out of theatre much, although some of the units which started on the eastern front may have brought some with them, mainly those naughty SS types. One of the characters in Len Deightons ‘Bomber’ was Fischer, ex 1st SS LAH posted to 12th SS. He brought his PPsH and Ukrainian driver with him, but was of course fictional.

     

     

    "Mistakes in the initial deployment cannot be rectified" - Helmuth von Moltke

    #76565
    Ivan Sorensen
    Participant

    Yeah, I’m not basing anything on it, working the other way instead to figure out if there’s anything to it. 🙂

    As you suggest, if Soviet anti-tank guns showed up, small arms are a possibility but I guess the real point of wonder if whether they were issued in lieu of MP40 or were confined to particular units (such as East front veterans).

    i.e. could a random Grenadier in Normandy or during Cobra have been issued one of these?

    Nordic Weasel Games
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    #76586
    John D Salt
    Participant

    Given that there were a number of Ost battalions in Normandy still equipped with Soviet 50mm and 82mm mortars, as well as 45mm ATGs, I’d be amazed if they didn’t also have PPsH SMGs. Especially as they took 9mm parabellum, same as the MP40.

    Tovarishch Picksky points out that the PPSh, like practially all Soviet SMGs, fired 7.62mm Tokarev. Although Mr. Pickier was surprised to find that there was apparently a 9mm Luger (as I gather we are supposed to call Parabellum these days) conversion kit, turning your MP-717(r) into an MP-41(r):

    http://www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=1464

    Googling “Osttruppen in Normandy” doesn’t turn up any piccies of booty PPs, and I do not recall ever seeing any, but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and I would be quite surprised if there weren’t a few with the Ost battalions.

    All the best,

    John.

    #76629
    MartinR
    Participant

    Even as I was typing that, I was thinking, mmmmm, did the PPsH really take 9mm? But yes, there were conversion kits.

    A lot of weapons were adapted to use German ammo, both small arms and artillery. On the western front I suspect soviet small arms were in a tiny minority, particularly if they needed Russian ammo, although there is a thread on the Axis History Forum which indicates that a lot of Ost battalions kept their Russian rifles (and Russian ammo), backed up by photos.

     

     

     

    "Mistakes in the initial deployment cannot be rectified" - Helmuth von Moltke

    #76639
    John D Salt
    Participant

    The thing I’ve seen most of among Osttruppen in Normandy from photies — probably helped by how bulky and distinctive in appearance it is — is the good old PM-10 Maksim. If you’re going to have a bunch of those — and I seem to recall Ostbattalionen often retained Soviet-style organisation, so you might have nine of them in the MG Coy — then it probably costs little more, in logistical headachery, to provide everyone with rifles in the same calibre. the same might be said of LMGs, though I don’t recall seeing any DP-28s in photographs from Normandy. SMGs, though, are a bit different, as they don’t contribute a fantastically large proportion of the unit’s firepower, and fire a cartridge shared only with pistols, which are essentially status symbols for officers.

    During the course of my googleage I have seen this same question asked in a couple of other fora, and nobody seems to have produced any definitive photographic or documentary evidence yet.

    All the best,

    John.

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